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Author Topic: Slush Pool vs Kano?  (Read 5552 times)
jchi2210
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August 26, 2017, 02:03:39 PM
 #1

I am new to mining and I have been trying to figure out which pool I should direct my s9 towards. I have 2 more coming in the mail but 1 is in right now. I have heard a lot of good things about slush pool and Kano but I was going to see which one you guys think would be more profitable?
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August 26, 2017, 02:13:27 PM
 #2

I am new to mining and I have been trying to figure out which pool I should direct my s9 towards. I have 2 more coming in the mail but 1 is in right now. I have heard a lot of good things about slush pool and Kano but I was going to see which one you guys think would be more profitable?

Pool preference is very much a personal choice.  Read the second post in the thread link below and make sure you understand the PPLNS payout method, its really not that difficult to comprehend, but it does take some getting used to in the way it works.  Both pools you listed use this payout method, but with different settings and I think Slush scores his so that it favors the largest miners with work updates, or at least he used to.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=104664.msg1146108#msg1146108

That ground work being said, I would recommend Kano since is his always online and keeping his miners updated as to what is going on.  Slush has abandoned his users here since he unleashed the Stratum protocol on us.  So he is nowhere to be found these days.  I have no idea why that is OK with the people who do use his pool, but it wouldn't be OK with me.

Good Luck with your choice.

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
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August 26, 2017, 02:31:20 PM
 #3

I am new to mining and I have been trying to figure out which pool I should direct my s9 towards. I have 2 more coming in the mail but 1 is in right now. I have heard a lot of good things about slush pool and Kano but I was going to see which one you guys think would be more profitable?

Pool preference is very much a personal choice.  Read the second post in the thread link below and make sure you understand the PPLNS payout method, its really not that difficult to comprehend, but it does take some getting used to in the way it works.  Both pools you listed use this payout method, but with different settings and I think Slush scores his so that it favors the largest miners with work updates, or at least he used to.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=104664.msg1146108#msg1146108

That ground work being said, I would recommend Kano since is his always online and keeping his miners updated as to what is going on.  Slush has abandoned his users here since he unleashed the Stratum protocol on us.  So he is nowhere to be found these days.  I have no idea why that is OK with the people who do use his pool, but it wouldn't be OK with me.

Good Luck with your choice.

Thanks os2sam! I appreciate the reply and the advice. I have been leaning more towards kano because I have been hearing more good things about his pool. I think I'm going to give it a shot!
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August 26, 2017, 03:25:00 PM
 #4

I am new to mining and I have been trying to figure out which pool I should direct my s9 towards. I have 2 more coming in the mail but 1 is in right now. I have heard a lot of good things about slush pool and Kano but I was going to see which one you guys think would be more profitable?

Pool preference is very much a personal choice.  Read the second post in the thread link below and make sure you understand the PPLNS payout method, its really not that difficult to comprehend, but it does take some getting used to in the way it works.  Both pools you listed use this payout method, but with different settings and I think Slush scores his so that it favors the largest miners with work updates, or at least he used to.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=104664.msg1146108#msg1146108

That ground work being said, I would recommend Kano since is his always online and keeping his miners updated as to what is going on.  Slush has abandoned his users here since he unleashed the Stratum protocol on us.  So he is nowhere to be found these days.  I have no idea why that is OK with the people who do use his pool, but it wouldn't be OK with me.

Good Luck with your choice.

Thanks os2sam! I appreciate the reply and the advice. I have been leaning more towards kano because I have been hearing more good things about his pool. I think I'm going to give it a shot!

If you have a good understanding of PPLNS and the 5ND then I think you'll be happy there.

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
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August 26, 2017, 03:54:17 PM
 #5

Well, there's also the fact that our pool fees are less than half of the slush pools fees Smiley
Slush is 2% we are 0.9%

Although the pool is only about 80PH, that's good enough that most of your shares are rewarded at the current difficulty.

At the moment difficulty is dropping, so a short delay in reward is also an advantage, but that drop wont continue for very long, so a long delay in reward on a small pool will almost certainly screw you over badly.

Pool: https://kano.is Here on Bitcointalk: Forum BTC: 1KanoPb8cKYqNrswjaA8cRDk4FAS9eDMLU
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August 26, 2017, 04:03:40 PM
 #6

I have tried out many pools and in the end I stood at the very same question that you're having right now:

Slush or Kano.

Both pools have advantages and disadvantages.

Kano:
+ GREAT support, great community
+ small fees
+ PPLNS: Your miner is offline, you just lose some hashpower for that shift but still get payed

- many small payouts. If you want to buy something immediately that means higher TX fees
- If bad luck hits you, it stays a while
- takes  3 days before you get your full reward. As a newbie that feels like ages, but it's worth waiting.


Slush:
+ You can set a minimum limit of btc for your payouts. Below it won't send the money to your wallet
+ Bad luck doesn't stay as long, since more hashpower (statistically speaking)
+ Immediate full reward. You hook your miner to the pool and they find something u get ur full pay. (However: That allows pool hopping)

0 Haven't tried out the support, didn't need it

- 1.1% higher fee
- No PPLNS, so if you're offline while they find a block you get 0 reward.


So I decided to split my hashpower among these two pools. It averages out bad and good luck. That's is the best solution in my opinion, due to the shown advantages and disadvantages.

Hope I could be of help.


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August 26, 2017, 05:59:41 PM
 #7

I have tried both the last month with 2 Antminer S9's and IMO they both are good and very close on what you can make. Slush has higher fees but a fancy home page and app on your phone with alerts. I do like the alert being I have had a few issues where a miner went down so I was able to get to it quickly. All in all I think Im going back to Kano to give it a try for a month and see where I make the most.
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August 26, 2017, 06:03:44 PM
 #8

I have tried both the last month with 2 Antminer S9's and IMO they both are good and very close on what you can make. Slush has higher fees but a fancy home page and app on your phone with alerts. I do like the alert being I have had a few issues where a miner went down so I was able to get to it quickly. All in all I think Im going back to Kano to give it a try for a month and see where I make the most.

Over time you will make the same on any pool, less the fee they charge.  So it really comes down to who you want to support and trust with your hash rate.

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
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greyworld
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August 26, 2017, 07:45:16 PM
 #9

No question, ckpool wins hands down

http://www.ckpool.org

0% FEE.
0% FEE.
0% FEE.

Slush pool is pretty great, I like it and would recommend it in general.  But 0% FEE on a pool by the guy that wrote cgminer is awesome.

There is a downside... the pool is kinda small right now.  Could be waiting a few weeks to hit a block.  But when it happens, you'll get paid instantly.

Like Slush, and Kano, ckpool does give the miners the transaction fees.  Antpool, for the most part, does not.  Which amounts to a hidden 10-20% fee, so screw antpool, it's garbage.

However, unlike Kano's pool, there is no 'unpaid dust' on ckpool.  Kano's pool has a ramping up time period he calls 'dust mining'.  In three years, he has not paid out that dust to most of the people mining it.  And his miners will say 'oh that doesn't amount to much, whatever', but my experience has been for the 24+ hours I mined there, 100% of it was dust and none of that has been paid to me.  Kano has bragged to me about not paying out over 16 BTC (roughly $70,000 USD) of this 'dust' and other unpaid miner earnings.  One guy got screwed for 0.3 BTC because he didn't fill in the sign up form right, and afaik, Kano still hasn't paid him that.  That's over $1300!  The reason why Kano's miners have such nice things to say about his pool is that if you have a large mining rig, your rate is actually the 0.9% and the 'dust' is negligible.  However, if you don't have a huge hash rate, your 'dust' is MUCH higher.  That means smaller miners, like you, will subsidize the larger miners low rates with the payments you won't get.  Kano pool is terrible, I strongly advise against it.

Also, Kanopools PPLNS takes longer to ramp up than SPLNS that ckpool uses.

http://www.ckpool.org

The website is... uhh, ugly... but what they didn't spend on webdesign they give to the miners!  Also, it's very functional, up to the minute stats and estimate of payouts.

If you try to discuss any of these issues with Kano on his self-moderated pool thread, he just deletes the posts and tells you to leave, which by forum rules you have to do.  That's why you don't see people raging about this on his thread.  AVOID KANO POOL.

EDIT: If you'd like to see a nicer version of the ckpool page I'm working on, you can try out this preview:

http://www.ckpool.org/test.html

Same content, nicer CSS, and shows the pool info on the page instead of on a separate page.

(IMPORTANT:  For now, don't put www. in front of ckpool links or they won't resolve.  just "ckpool.org")

'¸ __ ¸*ˆ * ·¸ ____ ¸*ˆ*· ¸ ______________________ ¸ ·*ˆ*¸ ____ ¸· * ˆ*¸ __ ¸'
. `·.,¸¸,.' .CKPOOL.ORG - Zero Fee Anonymous Bitcoin Mining Pool´ . . . '.,¸¸,.·´ .
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ `·.,¸¸,' ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ',¸¸,.·´ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
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August 27, 2017, 01:53:27 AM
 #10

 Kano's pool has a ramping up time period he calls 'dust mining'.  In three years, he has not paid out that dust to most of the people mining it.  And his miners will say 'oh that doesn't amount to much, whatever', but my experience has been for the 24+ hours I mined there, 100% of it was dust and none of that has been paid to me.  Kano has bragged to me about not paying out over 16 BTC (roughly $70,000 USD) of this 'dust' and other unpaid miner earnings.  One guy got screwed for 0.3 BTC because he didn't fill in the sign up form right, and afaik, Kano still hasn't paid him that.  That's over $1300!  The reason why Kano's miners have such nice things to say about his pool is that if you have a large mining rig, your rate is actually the 0.9% and the 'dust' is negligible.  However, if you don't have a huge hash rate, your 'dust' is MUCH higher.  That means smaller miners, like you, will subsidize the larger miners low rates with the payments you won't get.  Kano pool is terrible, I strongly advise against it.

Dust is a payment that would cost more in transaction fees to spend then the amount that would be transferred.  It doesn't make sense to send a dust payment and would be bad for the end user.

Kano will, at some point, square up the accounting and pay out those dust payments and/or allow a minimum payment threshold to be set.  He has been very upfront with this fact.

A miner would need around 600GHs to stay above the dust threshold.  The OP has and S9 which is way above the level that would create dust amounts.  So it would be a non issue for this user.

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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kano
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August 27, 2017, 01:54:24 AM
 #11

...
However, unlike Kano's pool, there is no 'unpaid dust' on ckpool.
...
Incorrect, any balance below 5460 satoshi or 0.0000546 BTC is unpaid on ckpool

Quote
Also, Kanopools PPLNS takes longer to ramp up than SPLNS that ckpool uses.
False, it currently takes ~2.5 days to reward your shares on my pool, and it's a consistent "ramp" up and down.
That other pool takes months ... to make one reward ... but worse they found 2 blocks but lost the first one due to bad code ... that the pool owner decided the miners had to pay for that mistake and test his code for him. I guess he didn't have any confidence in his own coding ability and made others bear that burden of around 14 to 16BTC or $70,000, that will never be rewarded to the miners who should have got it.

Quote
The (ckpool) website is... uhh, ugly... but what they didn't spend on webdesign they give to the miners!
Lucky I wrote the website on my pool thus nothing was spent on "webdesign" Smiley

--

The ckpool "Zero Fee" is a gimmick to get miners in.
His solo pool charges more fees than mine and also expects a tip on top of those higher fees.

--

The SPLNS payouts system has extremely high variance. The reward based purely on the luck of your miner that you have no control over.
Thus yes, small miners can get lucky and take fees from the large miners ... so yeah if your a large miner, stay away.
In the pool's own words:
Quote
Lucky rewards - since shares are weighted by the difficulty of the share found, if you are a small miner that has a handful of lucky high diff shares, you can earn significantly more, capped at current network difficulty.
That "significantly more" is taken from the other miners, and the larger the "other" miner, the more they lose.

... and the block finders reward discards the first reward of the block finder, so it's odd that any large miner would want to mine there and lose some of those block finder rewards in the stated manner on the pool:
Quote
Block finder rewards - as per lucky rewards, a large share weight is attached to block finds (but is applied to the next block reward since user rewards are included in the existing unsolved block reward.) The sooner the next block is found, the higher the block finder reward is.

--

PPLNS has the same ramp up and down to ensure hopping or changing accounts wont pay extra.
If SPLNS has a shorter ramp up than the ramp down, then that means that either:
1) The down ramp simply delays paying you the same amount longer than expected
OR
2) You can hop accounts on the pool by always switching to a new account each time you've completed your ramp up, and get paid more.

The reasoning is simple: on a consistent pool hash rate, the amount of the ramp up will be expected to be equal to the amount of the ramp down.
Thus if one ramp is larger than the other ramp, the large one is simply extending out that reward more slowly than the smaller ramp.
However, if the math of the two ramps don't produce exactly the same expected reward, you simply overlap the ramp up on one account with the ramp down on another account and thus expect to be paid more, like hopping, and taking reward from the other miners.

A shorter ramp also means a higher chance of not being rewarded if you can't mine for a period of time.
Of course it doesn't have an expected loss, but instead a shorter ramp increases payout variance.

So basically the whole SPLNS pool payout design produces an exceptionally high variance on your tiny payout.
Higher than any other pool's variance, it's basically a gambler's paradise.

You can go in with a lot of mining and get poor rewards due to the luck of the other miners.
You can go in with a small amount of mining and get better rewards due to the luck of your miners.
As shown above in the quotes, the pool even states this.
You have no control over either of that luck, so it's simply gambling with your hash rate.
A very bad idea for a large miner ...


PPLNS luck is based on the block finding luck of the pool. This part of the variance is due to, and part of the design of Bitcoin.
This variance is dependent upon the size of the pool.
The share finding luck variance is negligible, so the block finding variance is the only variance that you need to take into consideration on a good sized PPLNS pool.
i.e. it basically doesn't have much effect as long as the pool isn't too small.

However, with PPLNS and SPLNS, the rewards paid to miners are also affected by the time between block finds.
Shares are rewarded at the difficulty rate when the block is found, not when the shares were mined.
So if the pool isn't finding enough blocks per difficulty change (or isn't finding any every difficulty change) then you can expect very poor rewards.

If you are lucky and all your shares are mined when the difficulty was higher than when the block was found, then that is to your advantage.
So if you can find a Bitcoin network drop that goes on for months, then you'll make more BTC than expected.
However, this doesn't happen to BTC unless BTC is dying and the price would be expected to fall, so you'll miss out anyway Smiley

Short periods of difficulty instability can occur - like now - but you do want to hope they are only short for the sake of Bitcoin ...
When the time between your mining and block finding on a pool is large, you can expect to be rewarded very badly due to this.

Pool: https://kano.is Here on Bitcointalk: Forum BTC: 1KanoPb8cKYqNrswjaA8cRDk4FAS9eDMLU
FreeNode IRC: irc.freenode.net channel #kano.is Majority developer of the ckpool code
Help keep Bitcoin secure by mining on pools with full block verification on all blocks - and NO empty blocks!
greyworld
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August 27, 2017, 02:13:52 AM
 #12

Dust is a payment that would cost more in transaction fees to spend then the amount that would be transferred.  It doesn't make sense to send a dust payment and would be bad for the end user.

Kano will, at some point, square up the accounting and pay out those dust payments and/or allow a minimum payment threshold to be set.  He has been very upfront with this fact.

A miner would need around 600GHs to stay above the dust threshold.  The OP has and S9 which is way above the level that would create dust amounts.  So it would be a non issue for this user.

Slush and ckpool both have a way to deal with that, and it's obvious and simple: accumulate the dust and send it when it has hit an appreciable level.

"at some point" has been waiting three years.  Let's face it, 'some point' will never happen.

And even if you're over the dust threshhold, you still lose 'dust' during ramp up time (several days).  And if you're not much over that threshhold, it's a lot.

'¸ __ ¸*ˆ * ·¸ ____ ¸*ˆ*· ¸ ______________________ ¸ ·*ˆ*¸ ____ ¸· * ˆ*¸ __ ¸'
. `·.,¸¸,.' .CKPOOL.ORG - Zero Fee Anonymous Bitcoin Mining Pool´ . . . '.,¸¸,.·´ .
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August 27, 2017, 02:25:42 AM
 #13

Incorrect, any balance below 5460 satoshi or 0.0000546 BTC is unpaid on ckpool

Yes but if you build up beyond that, it does.  With your pool, it doesn't.

False, it currently takes ~2.5 days to reward your shares on my pool, and it's a consistent "ramp" up and down.
That other pool takes months ... to make one reward ... but worse they found 2 blocks but lost the first one due to bad code ... that the pool owner decided the miners had to pay for that mistake and test his code for him. I guess he didn't have any confidence in his own coding ability and made others bear that burden of around 14 to 16BTC or $70,000, that will never be rewarded to the miners who should have got it.

If the pools had the same hash rate, SPLNS would ramp up faster.

Lucky I wrote the website on my pool thus nothing was spent on "webdesign" Smiley

Also explains why it's ugly as sin.


The ckpool "Zero Fee" is a gimmick to get miners in.
His solo pool charges more fees than mine and also expects a tip on top of those higher fees.

Gimmick or not, 0% is a lot less than yours.  Figuring each mined block yields at least 13(ish) BTC, your 0.9% fee amounts to $500 per mined block.  Yet you still won't pay me my $2.


Kano -> "blah blah blah"

Don't care, 0% beats your $500 per block hustle every day of the week. 

Pay 100% of your miners 100% of what they earned! 



1KR2h2THQzQNoAq6f3PF1Qj3kxSXakH2oL

'¸ __ ¸*ˆ * ·¸ ____ ¸*ˆ*· ¸ ______________________ ¸ ·*ˆ*¸ ____ ¸· * ˆ*¸ __ ¸'
. `·.,¸¸,.' .CKPOOL.ORG - Zero Fee Anonymous Bitcoin Mining Pool´ . . . '.,¸¸,.·´ .
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ `·.,¸¸,' ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ',¸¸,.·´ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
kano
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August 27, 2017, 02:52:08 AM
 #14

...
The ckpool "Zero Fee" is a gimmick to get miners in.
His solo pool charges more fees than mine and also expects a tip on top of those higher fees.

Gimmick or not, 0% is a lot less than yours.  Figuring each mined block yields at least 13(ish) BTC, your 0.9% fee amounts to $500 per mined block.  Yet you still won't pay me my $2.
Quote
Don't care, 0% beats your $500 per block hustle every day of the week.  

Heh so your saying that since my fee is lower than all the larger pools and also lower than ckpool solo pool, then that's a $550 per block hustle on the ckpool solo pool?
Then he expects them to pay him a tip on top of that $550 hustle Smiley ... even more hustle? Smiley

Quote
Yeah who cares about how the payouts actually work and what rewards most miners actually get ... LOL


Edit: you should tell me your account on my pool, so that when I do the accounting code next and clear all the books, I'll make sure I don't pay you ... since we wouldn't want me to make a liar of all the posts where you've said I wont ever payout the dust Cheesy

Pool: https://kano.is Here on Bitcointalk: Forum BTC: 1KanoPb8cKYqNrswjaA8cRDk4FAS9eDMLU
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Help keep Bitcoin secure by mining on pools with full block verification on all blocks - and NO empty blocks!
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August 27, 2017, 03:02:20 AM
 #15

Kano:

True or false?

"Kanopool always pays 100% of the miners 100% of what they earned."

FALSE

End of discussion.

'¸ __ ¸*ˆ * ·¸ ____ ¸*ˆ*· ¸ ______________________ ¸ ·*ˆ*¸ ____ ¸· * ˆ*¸ __ ¸'
. `·.,¸¸,.' .CKPOOL.ORG - Zero Fee Anonymous Bitcoin Mining Pool´ . . . '.,¸¸,.·´ .
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ `·.,¸¸,' ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ',¸¸,.·´ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
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August 27, 2017, 03:20:58 AM
 #16

Kano:

True or false?

"Kanopool always pays 100% of the miners 100% of what they earned."

FALSE

End of discussion.
No pool does - end of discussion.

Pool: https://kano.is Here on Bitcointalk: Forum BTC: 1KanoPb8cKYqNrswjaA8cRDk4FAS9eDMLU
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August 27, 2017, 03:35:41 AM
 #17

No pool does - end of discussion.
...also FALSE!!



********* 0% FEE *********

--> ckpool.org <--

********* 0% FEE *********




'¸ __ ¸*ˆ * ·¸ ____ ¸*ˆ*· ¸ ______________________ ¸ ·*ˆ*¸ ____ ¸· * ˆ*¸ __ ¸'
. `·.,¸¸,.' .CKPOOL.ORG - Zero Fee Anonymous Bitcoin Mining Pool´ . . . '.,¸¸,.·´ .
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ `·.,¸¸,' ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ',¸¸,.·´ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
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August 27, 2017, 03:42:58 AM
 #18

No pool does - end of discussion.
...also FALSE!!

********* 0% FEE *********

--> ckpool.org <--

********* 0% FEE *********
Nope, that pool so far is below 50%
They didn't payout the first block the pool found (and never will) and the dust unpaid puts the total below 50%

Pool: https://kano.is Here on Bitcointalk: Forum BTC: 1KanoPb8cKYqNrswjaA8cRDk4FAS9eDMLU
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August 27, 2017, 04:12:32 AM
 #19

Nope, that pool so far is below 50%
They didn't payout the first block the pool found (and never will) and the dust unpaid puts the total below 50%

That's not entirely accurate.  Because it was the very first block mined with newly developed code, an unfortunate coding snafu caused a wire to get crossed and no one got any of the coin.  It sucks, but everyone involved knew they were were part of a beta testing program, and that there were risks.  ck didn't get paid either, no one did.  A regrettable problem that has since been fixed,  immediately... not after three years of silly excuses.  

But it's not like ck got it and failed to pay it out (like you with that $70,000 you've put off paying people for 3 years).  

And miner's dust is accumulating and will be paid by a functional system that is already in place.  I mined for a few hours one day during the last block, went elsewhere for weeks, but when that block got solved, I got paid immediately even though it was only $1.14.  Dust: paid.

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August 29, 2017, 11:06:27 AM
 #20

If you ask me, use Slush if you have hash power.
Everything works just fine, long time now.


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August 29, 2017, 01:04:53 PM
 #21

If you ask me, use Slush if you have hash power.
Everything works just fine, long time now.
... and more than twice the fees Smiley

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August 29, 2017, 01:22:28 PM
 #22

If you ask me, use Slush if you have hash power.
Everything works just fine, long time now.
... and more than twice the fees Smiley

But all the 'dust'!

(Kano -> 'Oh don't worry about the dust, I'll sweep that up for you, it's only $70,000 dollars worth, no biggie.  You'll get it, someday when hell freezes over.  Stop bothering me about it')

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August 29, 2017, 01:32:38 PM
 #23

If you ask me, use Slush if you have hash power.
Everything works just fine, long time now.
... and more than twice the fees Smiley

But all the 'dust'!

(Kano -> 'Oh don't worry about the dust, I'll sweep that up for you, it's only $70,000 dollars worth, no biggie.  You'll get it, someday when hell freezes over.  Stop bothering me about it')
At least they'll get it one day, unlike the $70,000 on the pool your mining at who lost it due to poor code testing and it's gone forever.
Yeah, yeah, yeah it was a test pool. Prey tell, why would people risk that on a test pool? Most of them never expected to lose a block, none of them should have expected it at all.
"Hey everyone, I'm not gonna risk my thousands of BTC on testing my code, no chance I'd do anything that stupid, I'll leave it to every sucker who mines on the pool, who'll get no gain for making that risk rather than mining somewhere else, just a loss when it fails"

Here's the cause:
https://bitbucket.org/ckolivas/ckpool-splns/commits/5620eb9b78c577a6e71e36dd9b0e3ec349119785

Odd that he took the pool down twice, days apart, for that one commit when it happened ...
the first time 3 hours after it "exploded" ... but it kept going apparently ... ... ...

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August 29, 2017, 01:38:33 PM
 #24

At least they'll get it one day ...

What, in another three years?  Suuure...

"But we don't have an accounting system in place yet" <- somehow, you will retroactively bolt one onto the last three years of transactions I suppose?   Roll Eyes  Just admit it, you skimmed off the top from your miners, especially the ones with low spec equip, then you lied about it over and over again.

I think this is why you don't step out from your self-moderated thread very often.  Not so fun when you can't just delete posts you disagree with eh?

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August 29, 2017, 01:49:30 PM
 #25

At least they'll get it one day ...

What, in another three years?  Suuure...
LOL - oh damn I'm gonna make a fortune holding dust that:
1) Is listed on everyone's Rewards page who has dust
2) adds up to not much at all

The majority is, as I've said before, people who didn't have addresses on their accounts.
The ones with the most haven't even asked me for it yet.
The way it's going now looks like I still might even get it done before I hear from most of them, I've posted on several occasions the coding TODO order, oh well you can't read, must be tough being underprivileged Smiley

Quote
"But we don't have an accounting system in place yet" <- somehow, you will retroactively bolt one onto the last three years of transactions I suppose?   Roll Eyes  Just admit it, you skimmed off the top from your miners, especially the ones with low spec equip, then you lied about it over and over again.
Your lack of reading skills showing up again Smiley

Heh having fun making stuff up?

At least my post is based on facts ... you can see that someone reported the block more than 3 hours before the pool OP even noticed anything.
The pool was still running when he 'took it down' the first time, even though it "exploded" ... for 3 hours ...
You can see the code that failed. Damn, gotta wonder why he didn't test that ...

Quote
I think this is why you don't step out from your self-moderated thread very often.  Not so fun when you can't just delete posts you disagree with eh?
Lulz, at least when you make up lies, don't pick ones that can be seen easily as falsehoods by clicking on the forum Smiley

Hmm, I wonder what your forum name was before this one Cheesy

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August 29, 2017, 08:09:42 PM
 #26

This bickering is extremely informative. Honestly, I know you guys are disagreeing, but it's actually very good information to see how pools differ in their accounting, methods of payment, etc. So thank you for that.  Smiley

I am not taking any side here; I'm possibly the most green user on the forum. Just wanted to say thanks and I hope to use some or all of these pool services in the near future!
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August 29, 2017, 08:21:57 PM
 #27

Quit bumping up your post counts, didley, you don't know didley about any of this.  grey is an idiot troll and deserves the ignore button.

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August 29, 2017, 08:46:46 PM
 #28

Quit bumping up your post counts, didley, you don't know didley about any of this.  grey is an idiot troll and deserves the ignore button.

Either way...

What does it matter if I'm posting? My post count can be zero for all I care; I joined a forum to talk to people about something I find interesting.

But nice to meet you as well. Tongue
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August 29, 2017, 09:06:23 PM
 #29

So.... trying to change pace to somewhat less negative

One thing you can do, with some pools, is pool hop.  One day on such and such, one day on another.  It's generally frowned upon but depending on the pools you're using, does not significantly impact your return.  This way you can benefit from the high payout rate of one and the immediate daily payouts (at a lower rate) of another.

Currently I'm spending one day on ckPool, because it's pretty awesome for reasons already stated.  But because I need the BTC my miner makes for ongoing expenses, then the next day I spend on ConnectBTC, which I have mixed feelings about.

Pros:
* Pays daily
* PPS + 10% (for now, I think that's a temporary offer for new signups though)
* Very professional, easy to use website with a nice interface and up to the minute stats
* Run by former members of the Spondoolies team, known for making really nice gear until they went out of business.
* The size of the pool hash rate is irrelevant, you get paid every day even if it takes them weeks to find a block

Cons:
* I think they do not pay out transaction fees, which is a huge portion of revenue anymore and growing by the day
* They are now owned by Bitmain, who is terrible.

One nice thing about ckPool is you can mine there a while, then disconnect, then come back, and you didn't get penalized much for it (or really, at all, that I can tell).

Both slush and kano will heavily penalize you for disconnecting.  On slush your profits will drop to 0 within an hour or so.  On Kano, if i understand correctly, it takes longer than that but taking a day off will have a significant impact on your earnings.

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August 30, 2017, 02:28:28 AM
 #30

Heh, you should first understand what you post about.
It will help you avoid making a complete fool of yourself due to making posts of complete rubbish Smiley
Have a read: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1112.4980.pdf
Most of that is still relevant ... but not all ... but be wary of picking a single statement in that document and making the wrong assumptions about it ... Smiley

Since my pool uses 5Nd for the PPLNS N value, if has the least effect (variance) on 'short term' miners coming and going, of any PPLNS pool.
None use a higher value for N. Many use a lower value. The higher the N is, on a pool that finds many blocks per diff change, the lower the variance for miners that don't mine full time.

However, the expected statistical effect on the reward, of coming and going from any PPLNS pool, is zero.

Any pool that uses some other calculation for determining how long it takes to reward a share - which is what the 'perceived' ramp up and down actually is - would have to verify that their function isn't hoppable, like PPLNS isn't hoppable at all except across diff changes.

SPLNS doesn't have a linear reward to the amount of work done, it instead applies an effectively random reward based on the random difficulty result (luck) of a found share. That random weighting is of course known after the share is found.
Some ananlysis of that, and the math used to affect the delayed payouts, would be necessary before considering it not hoppable.
e.g. what effect does coming and going from the pool after you find a very high difficulty share, or a long run of low difficulty shares ... etc.
Of course if the pool is rewarding the shares at the time a block is found, and blocks are expected to be found with long delays between them, then it all becomes a moot point, since the shares almost always lose a large amount of value due to that long delay, thus the hopping result simply becomes: don't ever mine on the pool.
That SPLNS pool also has no statistical analysis of shares submitted, to determine if there is purposeful or accidental withholding of shares and blocks.
It has no share history other than a single value, stored in a text file, at any particular point in time.

In years gone by, some pools used the PROP reward system, which turned out to be hoppable by mining up to the 43.5% diff mark and then always leaving at that point until the next pool block.
This ensured the miner received a higher reward per share than the miners who continued to mine after the 43.5% diff mark, thus short term miners were effectively taking rewards from long term miners.
This was a good example to show that making any assumptions about a payout scheme was a bad idea ... as I myself made about PROP at the time that analysis was done, and indeed learned from my mistake Smiley

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August 30, 2017, 05:27:43 AM
 #31

I like Kano's pool, but I think the only criticism would be for a small miner, the fact that Kano's pool will send you 1 payment for every block found.  While it doesn't charge you a fee for this, it will cost you more in fees to spend the coin.  For a small miner this will definitely be more than the 1.1% more that slush's pool charges. 

Of course you partially/mostly avoid this by waiting for a time when the network is not congested and trying to do a consolidation payment with 5 sat/byte.  It would probably get confirmed.  But just be aware there will be long periods of time when the mempool is full where your funds will essentially be frozen, requiring a very high fee to spend (or to use a transaction accelerator from a competing pool)

Also from an ecosystem perspective, it does generate more transactions than necessary on the network and confirming the payouts in the next blocks found does sometimes displace paying transactions resulting in a very small reduction in earnings for the pool. 

That being said I still think Kano's pool is best (for a medium-large miner who would be less affected by the transaction fee issue). 
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August 31, 2017, 08:48:28 PM
 #32

I like Kano's pool, but I think the only criticism would be for a small miner, the fact that Kano's pool will send you 1 payment for every block found.  While it doesn't charge you a fee for this, it will cost you more in fees to spend the coin.  For a small miner this will definitely be more than the 1.1% more that slush's pool charges. 

Of course you partially/mostly avoid this by waiting for a time when the network is not congested and trying to do a consolidation payment with 5 sat/byte.  It would probably get confirmed.  But just be aware there will be long periods of time when the mempool is full where your funds will essentially be frozen, requiring a very high fee to spend (or to use a transaction accelerator from a competing pool)

Also from an ecosystem perspective, it does generate more transactions than necessary on the network and confirming the payouts in the next blocks found does sometimes displace paying transactions resulting in a very small reduction in earnings for the pool. 

That being said I still think Kano's pool is best (for a medium-large miner who would be less affected by the transaction fee issue). 

For example, all my small earnings go to Coinbase. When I sell it, do I need to pay more on transaction fee? A while back, I sent earnings to BTC.com. Then later I wanted to send it to Coinbase, the transaction fee is like 15%. Does Coinbase consolidate the smaller earning for you?
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September 02, 2017, 04:39:49 AM
 #33

I just joined Kano's pool. It is my first time mining and I currently only have one Avalon 741 running.

Was this a bad choice with the dust and frequent payouts since I have such a low hash rate?
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September 02, 2017, 05:45:48 AM
 #34

I just joined Kano's pool. It is my first time mining and I currently only have one Avalon 741 running.

Was this a bad choice with the dust and frequent payouts since I have such a low hash rate?


I think my answer is probably obvious so I'll skip it.

As long as you stay connected the dust won't be.... a huge big deal.  But do yourself a favor and keep track of it, after a couple weeks, figure out what percentage of your earnings it represents.  I'd be interested to hear the numbers you come up with.

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October 23, 2017, 02:21:03 PM
 #35

I just joined Kano's pool. It is my first time mining and I currently only have one Avalon 741 running.

Was this a bad choice with the dust and frequent payouts since I have such a low hash rate?


I have the same - depending on when you joined and when a block is found, you might get dust payments for your first payment or so. After that, i can confidently say that your rewards will be well above the dust threshold so you will get paid every time a block is found.

When/if you leave the pool, towards the end of your ramp down time it may be that you only get a dust reward also.

In a nutshell - i do not think pool hopping with a single miner will be for your benefit to mine with Kano pool as you will likely earn dust payments more frequently. However, if you intend to keep with the same pool for some time, then it will not be an issue.

This is for you to decide your own fate!

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October 23, 2017, 02:23:37 PM
 #36

I just joined Kano's pool. It is my first time mining and I currently only have one Avalon 741 running.

Was this a bad choice with the dust and frequent payouts since I have such a low hash rate?

I would be interested to know as well.  I am currently mining with at 1.0 TH/s and have only gotten (2) "dust" payments and would like to know what minimum Th/S necessary to bother mining there.

I'm sure i've seen 600GHS mentioned as the threshold (i cant comment if that is accurate or not). A few months back i was mining with a 1.1 THS S5 that was way above the dust threshold after it had ramped up - this should be between 2.6 and 3 days. However, depending on if pool size increases your reward might fall below the threshold.

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October 24, 2017, 12:24:46 AM
 #37

I say go with slush, I've mined on both and whole slush might take more fees, it finds several blocks a day and you make more. When I jumped into Kano, it took over 100 hours to find a block, now they're sitting close to 40 hours. In that 40 hour timeframe, slush has found 26 blocks.
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October 31, 2017, 02:13:19 AM
 #38

Can anyone give me an example of what one S9 will make on Kano per day... I was on slush then tried Antpool for 2 days and Antpool sucks, so I am trying Kano now .
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October 31, 2017, 07:19:41 AM
 #39

It depends, since they haven't found a valid block for about 4 days, you'll make zero those days.  When you do find a block, at the current hashrate, you should get around .00298892 BTC depending on the size of the block.
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October 31, 2017, 06:46:07 PM
 #40

I have mined at both pools. Slush was the first pool I ever mined on and even found a block there. I left it years ago due to the fact that the payout system every now and then would payout the wrong amounts. About 4-5 times myself and many other miners would get short changed on payouts and others got way to much. Once I was on the overpay and you never could get an answer from Slush so I left. He may have fixed that problem as it's been a longtime but I have never had trusted the payout since.

I have mined at Kanos pool and it always paid me and I found it to be a very well ran pool. The only down fall is when the pools total hash rate drops to a point you are waiting days to find a block and it crosses difficulty changes it seems you are losing out. But as any small pool it's a  psychology point of going days without getting anything that makes it hard to stay put. But if I had to chose only between these 2 pools it would be Kano's.

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October 31, 2017, 06:49:44 PM
 #41

It depends, since they haven't found a valid block for about 4 days, you'll make zero those days.  When you do find a block, at the current hashrate, you should get around .00298892 BTC depending on the size of the block.

Where are you getting this number from? 4 days to make .00298? (If true that would hurt)

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October 31, 2017, 08:33:14 PM
 #42

I took your average hashrate having an S9 at 13.5 TH/s divided by the Pool's rate (which was 60,xxx before, now it's lower) and then multiplied that by an average block size of around 13.5.  That number doesn't account for his 0.9% pool fee though.  Either way, people aren't getting anything on Kano right now which is why the pool size is shrinking rapidly.
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November 02, 2017, 11:39:47 AM
 #43

I have mined at both pools. Slush was the first pool I ever mined on and even found a block there. I left it years ago due to the fact that the payout system every now and then would payout the wrong amounts. About 4-5 times myself and many other miners would get short changed on payouts and others got way to much. Once I was on the overpay and you never could get an answer from Slush so I left. He may have fixed that problem as it's been a longtime but I have never had trusted the payout since.

I have mined at Kanos pool and it always paid me and I found it to be a very well ran pool. The only down fall is when the pools total hash rate drops to a point you are waiting days to find a block and it crosses difficulty changes it seems you are losing out. But as any small pool it's a  psychology point of going days without getting anything that makes it hard to stay put. But if I had to chose only between these 2 pools it would be Kano's.


Well I guess I would need to rethink this as Kano's pools has gone 96 hours without hitting a block and Slush has been having a very good lucky streak

Unlock my old account please:
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November 03, 2017, 02:58:19 PM
 #44

I have mined at both pools. Slush was the first pool I ever mined on and even found a block there. I left it years ago due to the fact that the payout system every now and then would payout the wrong amounts. About 4-5 times myself and many other miners would get short changed on payouts and others got way to much. Once I was on the overpay and you never could get an answer from Slush so I left. He may have fixed that problem as it's been a longtime but I have never had trusted the payout since.

I have mined at Kanos pool and it always paid me and I found it to be a very well ran pool. The only down fall is when the pools total hash rate drops to a point you are waiting days to find a block and it crosses difficulty changes it seems you are losing out. But as any small pool it's a  psychology point of going days without getting anything that makes it hard to stay put. But if I had to chose only between these 2 pools it would be Kano's.


Well I guess I would need to rethink this as Kano's pools has gone 96 hours without hitting a block and Slush has been having a very good lucky streak


Yeah I tried out Kano for a week and barely made anything, switched back to slush and my measly 8 th/s is pulling in about .01btc every 5-6 days.
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November 03, 2017, 03:00:26 PM
 #45

That's why its called luck

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November 03, 2017, 03:06:47 PM
 #46

That's why its called luck

Having almost 800ph helps negate the luck factor quite a bit.
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November 03, 2017, 03:20:08 PM
 #47

That's why its called luck

Having almost 800ph helps negate the luck factor quite a bit.

And also lowers the payout you get per block.

In the long run, it all evens out of course - at the end of day, you'll make less on Slush because it has a higher fee.
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November 03, 2017, 03:44:42 PM
 #48

That's why its called luck

Having almost 800ph helps negate the luck factor quite a bit.

And also lowers the payout you get per block.

In the long run, it all evens out of course - at the end of day, you'll make less on Slush because it has a higher fee.

If the luck is equal on both pools, last month it was not. 
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November 03, 2017, 04:14:34 PM
 #49


If the luck is equal on both pools, last month it was not. 

I wasn't talking about luck, I was talking about rewards. In the long run, it evens out - that's how statistics work.

The only issue is that difficulty also moves, so unless you increase your hash rate with difficulty, if you don't get paid out at lower difficulty, you'll lose out as it goes up.
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November 03, 2017, 06:29:56 PM
 #50


If the luck is equal on both pools, last month it was not. 

I wasn't talking about luck, I was talking about rewards. In the long run, it evens out - that's how statistics work.

The only issue is that difficulty also moves, so unless you increase your hash rate with difficulty, if you don't get paid out at lower difficulty, you'll lose out as it goes up.

No one asked you about luck, the entire thread, minus your musings, was about luck.
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November 03, 2017, 10:44:44 PM
 #51


If the luck is equal on both pools, last month it was not. 

I wasn't talking about luck, I was talking about rewards. In the long run, it evens out - that's how statistics work.

The only issue is that difficulty also moves, so unless you increase your hash rate with difficulty, if you don't get paid out at lower difficulty, you'll lose out as it goes up.

No one asked you about luck, the entire thread, minus your musings, was about luck.

You get 0 rewards if your pool is too small and never finds a block.  Johnny Bravo's pool hasn't found a block in over a year.  If they did you'd get an incredible reward, but they don't, so you don't.
rifleman74
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November 04, 2017, 02:10:48 AM
 #52


If the luck is equal on both pools, last month it was not. 

I wasn't talking about luck, I was talking about rewards. In the long run, it evens out - that's how statistics work.

The only issue is that difficulty also moves, so unless you increase your hash rate with difficulty, if you don't get paid out at lower difficulty, you'll lose out as it goes up.

No one asked you about luck, the entire thread, minus your musings, was about luck.

You get 0 rewards if your pool is too small and never finds a block.  Johnny Bravo's pool hasn't found a block in over a year.  If they did you'd get an incredible reward, but they don't, so you don't.


When did JohnnyBravo's pool get thrown in here?  Slush vs kano.  Please read.
NeuralChris
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November 04, 2017, 05:28:39 AM
 #53


If the luck is equal on both pools, last month it was not. 

I wasn't talking about luck, I was talking about rewards. In the long run, it evens out - that's how statistics work.

The only issue is that difficulty also moves, so unless you increase your hash rate with difficulty, if you don't get paid out at lower difficulty, you'll lose out as it goes up.

No one asked you about luck, the entire thread, minus your musings, was about luck.

You get 0 rewards if your pool is too small and never finds a block.  Johnny Bravo's pool hasn't found a block in over a year.  If they did you'd get an incredible reward, but they don't, so you don't.


When did JohnnyBravo's pool get thrown in here?  Slush vs kano.  Please read.

It's called using them as an example.  Try to keep up sweetheart.
rifleman74
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November 04, 2017, 12:51:09 PM
 #54


If the luck is equal on both pools, last month it was not. 

I wasn't talking about luck, I was talking about rewards. In the long run, it evens out - that's how statistics work.

The only issue is that difficulty also moves, so unless you increase your hash rate with difficulty, if you don't get paid out at lower difficulty, you'll lose out as it goes up.

No one asked you about luck, the entire thread, minus your musings, was about luck.

You get 0 rewards if your pool is too small and never finds a block.  Johnny Bravo's pool hasn't found a block in over a year.  If they did you'd get an incredible reward, but they don't, so you don't.


When did JohnnyBravo's pool get thrown in here?  Slush vs kano.  Please read.

It's called using them as an example.  Try to keep up sweetheart.

What a piss poor example. You tried,but you failed, yet again.  At least you tried. 
huynhdat1989
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November 04, 2017, 02:19:54 PM
 #55

Well, there's also the fact that our pool fees are less than half of the slush pools fees Smiley
Slush is 2% we are 0.9%

Although the pool is only about 80PH, that's good enough that most of your shares are rewarded at the current difficulty.

At the moment difficulty is dropping, so a short delay in reward is also an advantage, but that drop wont continue for very long, so a long delay in reward on a small pool will almost certainly screw you over badly.

More than that, kano is very helpful when we need his help. I have a 0.5 BTC transaction that gets stucked because of low fee for 2 weeks. And he helped me to add to block get confirmations.
Kano is a friend, very enjoy his pool.
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November 05, 2017, 12:03:44 AM
 #56


If the luck is equal on both pools, last month it was not. 

I wasn't talking about luck, I was talking about rewards. In the long run, it evens out - that's how statistics work.

The only issue is that difficulty also moves, so unless you increase your hash rate with difficulty, if you don't get paid out at lower difficulty, you'll lose out as it goes up.

No one asked you about luck, the entire thread, minus your musings, was about luck.

You get 0 rewards if your pool is too small and never finds a block.  Johnny Bravo's pool hasn't found a block in over a year.  If they did you'd get an incredible reward, but they don't, so you don't.


When did JohnnyBravo's pool get thrown in here?  Slush vs kano.  Please read.

It's called using them as an example.  Try to keep up sweetheart.

What a piss poor example. You tried,but you failed, yet again.  At least you tried. 

I actually thought it was a good analogy to use. I hope Kano doesn’t go down that route and manages to stay viable for everyone involved

Made you look!
NeuralChris
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November 05, 2017, 02:10:38 AM
 #57


If the luck is equal on both pools, last month it was not. 

I wasn't talking about luck, I was talking about rewards. In the long run, it evens out - that's how statistics work.

The only issue is that difficulty also moves, so unless you increase your hash rate with difficulty, if you don't get paid out at lower difficulty, you'll lose out as it goes up.

No one asked you about luck, the entire thread, minus your musings, was about luck.

You get 0 rewards if your pool is too small and never finds a block.  Johnny Bravo's pool hasn't found a block in over a year.  If they did you'd get an incredible reward, but they don't, so you don't.


When did JohnnyBravo's pool get thrown in here?  Slush vs kano.  Please read.

It's called using them as an example.  Try to keep up sweetheart.

What a piss poor example. You tried,but you failed, yet again.  At least you tried. 

I actually thought it was a good analogy to use. I hope Kano doesn’t go down that route and manages to stay viable for everyone involved

Yeah, Kano's sycophants get upset when you make fun of their pool.  I've been monitoring the situation over there and it looks like they've had some good luck cracking blocks in the past couple of days.  Going to keep an eye on it and if I can make more in a week over than than I do on Slush, I'll switch back.
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November 05, 2017, 04:46:01 AM
 #58


If the luck is equal on both pools, last month it was not. 

I wasn't talking about luck, I was talking about rewards. In the long run, it evens out - that's how statistics work.

The only issue is that difficulty also moves, so unless you increase your hash rate with difficulty, if you don't get paid out at lower difficulty, you'll lose out as it goes up.

No one asked you about luck, the entire thread, minus your musings, was about luck.

You get 0 rewards if your pool is too small and never finds a block.  Johnny Bravo's pool hasn't found a block in over a year.  If they did you'd get an incredible reward, but they don't, so you don't.


When did JohnnyBravo's pool get thrown in here?  Slush vs kano.  Please read.

It's called using them as an example.  Try to keep up sweetheart.

What a piss poor example. You tried,but you failed, yet again.  At least you tried. 

I actually thought it was a good analogy to use. I hope Kano doesn’t go down that route and manages to stay viable for everyone involved

Yeah, Kano's sycophants get upset when you make fun of their pool.  I've been monitoring the situation over there and it looks like they've had some good luck cracking blocks in the past couple of days.  Going to keep an eye on it and if I can make more in a week over than than I do on Slush, I'll switch back.


Stay on slush, it's better.
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November 05, 2017, 08:45:41 PM
 #59

Not better, but more stable income per day because of the larger pool hashrate.

(Although I would like to see that all slushpool users move to kano... a win win situation due to slightly lower fee for all users..)
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November 07, 2017, 04:34:51 AM
 #60

If you're noob like me, Slush provides the feedback necessary to sleep at nite.
The Pros use Kano for a reason which requires confidence that noobs (like me) just don't have.
I mine at Slush because everytime I've switched away I've lost my ass. 

On a related topic: I named my cat after Kano - not because Slush isn't also a good cat name.

NeuralChris
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November 07, 2017, 06:54:56 AM
 #61

If you're noob like me, Slush provides the feedback necessary to sleep at nite.
The Pros use Kano for a reason which requires confidence that noobs (like me) just don't have.
I mine at Slush because everytime I've switched away I've lost my ass. 

On a related topic: I named my cat after Kano - not because Slush isn't also a good cat name.



Same here, I'll probably give Kano a try again the future, but I really lost my ass the last time I tried.
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