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Author Topic: People pay your Taxes  (Read 71320 times)
subvolatil
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November 21, 2013, 03:19:45 PM
 #21

Interesting thread. Has anyone actually declared an income from their bitcoins in their IT filings. I will be most interested in knowing especially if I profit from this down the road.

I realize that a number of people don't need to pay taxes primarily because they don't trade or make significant enough profits to declare but for those that have filed, what ITR forms have you submitted.

I know that people having regular incomes and interests file ITR1 form. Those that also have rentals file ITR2. I also know that regular stock, intra day traders file ITR4 where they show profits and write off losses, deduct operation expenses etc. Bitcoins are still ill defined as far as Indian taxes are considered. Should it be filed as a short term capital gain. How does one off set expenses incurred in hardware and electricity in the tax returns? Or if he has purchased the Bitcoin, he should only be paying a capital gains tax on the profits.

Eventually I hope the authorities are going to make this clear once they see the volume of people using Bitcoins in India.



Well  the current  understanding  would  make  the  declaration as  a  Capital gain (depending  on the  time  you  held the  BTC long  term or   short term.) .


Income Tax Slabs   Income Tax Rates
Where Total Income does not exceed Rs. 2,00,000   NIL
Where the Total Income exceeds Rs. 2,00,000 but does not exceed Rs. 5,00,000   10% of the Amount by which it exceeds Rs. 2,00,000
Where the Total Income exceeds Rs. 5,00,000 but does not exceed Rs. 10,00,000   20% of the Amount by which it exceeds Rs. 5,00,000
Where the Total Income exceeds Rs. 10,00,000                                                   30% of the Amount by which it exceeds Rs. 10,00,000
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November 22, 2013, 05:07:58 AM
 #22

Interesting thread. Has anyone actually declared an income from their bitcoins in their IT filings. I will be most interested in knowing especially if I profit from this down the road.

I realize that a number of people don't need to pay taxes primarily because they don't trade or make significant enough profits to declare but for those that have filed, what ITR forms have you submitted.

I know that people having regular incomes and interests file ITR1 form. Those that also have rentals file ITR2. I also know that regular stock, intra day traders file ITR4 where they show profits and write off losses, deduct operation expenses etc. Bitcoins are still ill defined as far as Indian taxes are considered. Should it be filed as a short term capital gain. How does one off set expenses incurred in hardware and electricity in the tax returns? Or if he has purchased the Bitcoin, he should only be paying a capital gains tax on the profits.

Eventually I hope the authorities are going to make this clear once they see the volume of people using Bitcoins in India.



Well  the current  understanding  would  make  the  declaration as  a  Capital gain (depending  on the  time  you  held the  BTC long  term or   short term.) .


Income Tax Slabs   Income Tax Rates
Where Total Income does not exceed Rs. 2,00,000   NIL
Where the Total Income exceeds Rs. 2,00,000 but does not exceed Rs. 5,00,000   10% of the Amount by which it exceeds Rs. 2,00,000
Where the Total Income exceeds Rs. 5,00,000 but does not exceed Rs. 10,00,000   20% of the Amount by which it exceeds Rs. 5,00,000
Where the Total Income exceeds Rs. 10,00,000                                                   30% of the Amount by which it exceeds Rs. 10,00,000


I doubt if it is as simple as adding profits to your existing incomes and figure out which slab you fall under. It would not apply for Long Term CG

Leaving aside the details of what type of capital it is (property or stock for instance) or if it should be eligible for indexation, long term CG has a flat tax rate of 20% regardless of what tax slab you will normally fall under.

The significance of inquiring about the ITR Form meant for Traders is that it will allow many tax benefits for those who repeatedly buy and sell, including expenses and off setting losses. It occurred to me later that it will not be possible because these are unregulated trades and hence don't have STT charges.
subvolatil
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November 22, 2013, 05:23:36 AM
 #23

Interesting thread. Has anyone actually declared an income from their bitcoins in their IT filings. I will be most interested in knowing especially if I profit from this down the road.

I realize that a number of people don't need to pay taxes primarily because they don't trade or make significant enough profits to declare but for those that have filed, what ITR forms have you submitted.

I know that people having regular incomes and interests file ITR1 form. Those that also have rentals file ITR2. I also know that regular stock, intra day traders file ITR4 where they show profits and write off losses, deduct operation expenses etc. Bitcoins are still ill defined as far as Indian taxes are considered. Should it be filed as a short term capital gain. How does one off set expenses incurred in hardware and electricity in the tax returns? Or if he has purchased the Bitcoin, he should only be paying a capital gains tax on the profits.

Eventually I hope the authorities are going to make this clear once they see the volume of people using Bitcoins in India.



Well  the current  understanding  would  make  the  declaration as  a  Capital gain (depending  on the  time  you  held the  BTC long  term or   short term.) .


Income Tax Slabs   Income Tax Rates
Where Total Income does not exceed Rs. 2,00,000   NIL
Where the Total Income exceeds Rs. 2,00,000 but does not exceed Rs. 5,00,000   10% of the Amount by which it exceeds Rs. 2,00,000
Where the Total Income exceeds Rs. 5,00,000 but does not exceed Rs. 10,00,000   20% of the Amount by which it exceeds Rs. 5,00,000
Where the Total Income exceeds Rs. 10,00,000                                                   30% of the Amount by which it exceeds Rs. 10,00,000


I doubt if it is as simple as adding profits to your existing incomes and figure out which slab you fall under. It would not apply for Long Term CG

Leaving aside the details of what type of capital it is (property or stock for instance) or if it should be eligible for indexation, long term CG has a flat tax rate of 20% regardless of what tax slab you will normally fall under.

The significance of inquiring about the ITR Form meant for Traders is that it will allow many tax benefits for those who repeatedly buy and sell, including expenses and off setting losses. It occurred to me later that it will not be possible because these are unregulated trades and hence don't have STT charges.


Long term  CG applies to assets you hold  for  36 months or more . then the fixed 20% is applied

The Short term Capital gain is the is calculated with the slab above.

Its the ITR 2 that you fill up  for  capital gain (Other source of income).  unless specified.

The problem here does not lie with Regulation or  non regulation, but  with the  correct Tax definition.  
Till the time The income tax department does not  specify any specification on income generated through the conversion of crypto currency it should be considered as other  income and  filled  under the ITR2 . (Better safe then sorry).

The tax calculation will not apply to the bitcoin but the  INR that  is converted.  

Edit :- Yes it is not as simple as adding profits to your existing income. i would  suggest a  consultation with a tax expert on the calculation methods.  I will  have my done this coming  financial year and will post the  details and  processes ,.
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January 08, 2014, 07:13:43 PM
 #24

But not every one is a  part time  worker  or a  student. and many do have  bitcoin transactions  over  2 lakh. They, need to keep records and pay tax properly.

Ah well fuck indian gov i'm not going to pay any tax.


+1
Pay taxes for what?? no roads.. shitass electric supply.. open garbages..
Our money is only gettin locked away in swiss accounts by these fuckin bureaucrats.. 

I understand you frustration. but fighting against the system head on is only gona give the  government reasons to go after the bitcoin community users.  we can  fuck up theses bureaucrats once  we have established  a  proper global decentralized currency. away from the control of world  governments.

Its in moments like this i feel the absence of crappy media.. they can replay the same fuckin news for two days in a row but cannot actually do one good thing for the community.. i mean while the rest of the world news agencies are giving out reviews.. positive negative other matter.. but atleast people know.. Sometimes i wonder why is India so fucked up on so many different levels.. and yet we are india shining.. Grrrr..  Angry Angry

Thats  ckz  the  media has  sold out. and its  alos  the same with  western  media  companies ,  with "News Corp", owning some  of  the largest  news  outlets  in the world. they control what goes in and  what comes  out.  most of the  media  companies have heir affiliation to  political parties, making news a hard thing to  be provided without bias,


Precisely   Shocked Undecided Smiley

My money Cheesy is on these kind of IDEAS - http://youtu.be/kE9mxQzybcQ
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January 09, 2014, 02:04:55 AM
 #25

But not every one is a  part time  worker  or a  student. and many do have  bitcoin transactions  over  2 lakh. They, need to keep records and pay tax properly.

Ah well fuck indian gov i'm not going to pay any tax.



The power to tax is the power to destroy. Income tax and property tax are evil. Just my 2 cents.

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>>WE MANAGE SOCIAL MEDIA FOR CRYPTO. IF YOU DON'T HAVE TIME AND HAVE CRYPTO, PM US!<<
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January 09, 2014, 04:45:48 AM
 #26

But not every one is a  part time  worker  or a  student. and many do have  bitcoin transactions  over  2 lakh. They, need to keep records and pay tax properly.

Ah well fuck indian gov i'm not going to pay any tax.



The power to tax is the power to destroy. Income tax and property tax are evil. Just my 2 cents.

yeah, my folks just told me that despite the fact that we worked our balls off and bought a house and 'OWN' it, we still need to pay prop tax every year Huh?? WTF?? lol.. Crazy stuff.

PS: They didnt say balls Smiley

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January 30, 2014, 08:43:54 AM
 #27

Taxation is a form for govt to collect money from people, help people with that money and also to level the rich-poor ground. But only first part of it succeeds fully.

I am planning to declare the bitcoins i have as an asset in the filing i will do in aug for the fin year ending march 31st 2014. please share your views about this if you are willing to.

CENTRA

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BTCIndia
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January 30, 2014, 08:51:40 AM
 #28

But not every one is a  part time  worker  or a  student. and many do have  bitcoin transactions  over  2 lakh. They, need to keep records and pay tax properly.

Ah well fuck indian gov i'm not going to pay any tax.



The power to tax is the power to destroy. Income tax and property tax are evil. Just my 2 cents.

You must have skipped elementary education where they teach how democracy works. Selfish soul! Whatever you've earned was from society and paying them back, willing or unwilling is moral obligation. Because, most people are unwilling to digest the thought above, they're forced to tax. 

He's Nick Sazbo from Washington. I've my answer. Or Hal? :O
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January 30, 2014, 08:54:13 AM
 #29

Taxation is a form for govt to collect money from people, help people with that money and also to level the rich-poor ground. But only first part of it succeeds fully.

I am planning to declare the bitcoins i have as an asset in the filing i will do in aug for the fin year ending march 31st 2014. please share your views about this if you are willing to.

Thats' great move! I'd suggest, you should file soonner for following reasons:

1. Earlier you pay taxes, lower you'll have to pay considering its price is sure to rise in future.
2. Taxation on Bitcoin is inevitable now. If you early enough to give them headache of taxing Bitcoin, they'll be forced to work out issue soon. And that will be good for people involved.
3. One more issue to catalyze government to take clear stand on virtual currency.

He's Nick Sazbo from Washington. I've my answer. Or Hal? :O
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January 30, 2014, 09:02:22 AM
 #30

I need to pay taxes only when i sell them. Not to just hold the obtained bitcoins.
So it will just be asset declaration this time.

If they ask me to pay taxes because i have mined some bitcoins, my argument would be to ask them to accept my tax in bitcoins or to establish authorized exchanges where we can convert bitcoins to inr. Any of these two options would be good for us Smiley

CENTRA

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January 30, 2014, 11:10:07 AM
 #31

I need to pay taxes only when i sell them. Not to just hold the obtained bitcoins.
So it will just be asset declaration this time.

If they ask me to pay taxes because i have mined some bitcoins, my argument would be to ask them to accept my tax in bitcoins or to establish authorized exchanges where we can convert bitcoins to inr. Any of these two options would be good for us Smiley

So asset declaration would include the coins your holding ? (in which case how would you value it ?)Or the ones that you have sold and have cash for it ? (that doesnt sound like an asset to me ... sorry im just too confused with this whole tax thing)
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January 30, 2014, 11:43:11 AM
 #32

I need to pay taxes only when i sell them. Not to just hold the obtained bitcoins.
So it will just be asset declaration this time.

If they ask me to pay taxes because i have mined some bitcoins, my argument would be to ask them to accept my tax in bitcoins or to establish authorized exchanges where we can convert bitcoins to inr. Any of these two options would be good for us Smiley

So asset declaration would include the coins your holding ? (in which case how would you value it ?)Or the ones that you have sold and have cash for it ? (that doesnt sound like an asset to me ... sorry im just too confused with this whole tax thing)

Bitcoin does not fall under the definition of an asset,

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January 30, 2014, 11:45:58 AM
 #33

I need to pay taxes only when i sell them. Not to just hold the obtained bitcoins.
So it will just be asset declaration this time.

If they ask me to pay taxes because i have mined some bitcoins, my argument would be to ask them to accept my tax in bitcoins or to establish authorized exchanges where we can convert bitcoins to inr. Any of these two options would be good for us Smiley

So asset declaration would include the coins your holding ? (in which case how would you value it ?)Or the ones that you have sold and have cash for it ? (that doesnt sound like an asset to me ... sorry im just too confused with this whole tax thing)

Bitcoin does not fall under the definition of an asset,

Lol there we go again .. back to square 1 with legal interpretations. Is there any thread about this ?
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January 30, 2014, 11:47:17 AM
 #34

I need to pay taxes only when i sell them. Not to just hold the obtained bitcoins.
So it will just be asset declaration this time.

If they ask me to pay taxes because i have mined some bitcoins, my argument would be to ask them to accept my tax in bitcoins or to establish authorized exchanges where we can convert bitcoins to inr. Any of these two options would be good for us Smiley

So asset declaration would include the coins your holding ? (in which case how would you value it ?)Or the ones that you have sold and have cash for it ? (that doesnt sound like an asset to me ... sorry im just too confused with this whole tax thing)

Bitcoin does not fall under the definition of an asset,

Lol there we go again .. back to square 1 with legal interpretations. Is there any thread about this ?

its not an interpretation. Assets, securities and derivatives all have legal definitions.

In order for Bitcoin to fall under one of them, it first needs to be defined.

Do check with a lawyer and he will agree with what I said :p

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January 30, 2014, 11:52:27 AM
 #35

Quote
Do check with a lawyer and he will agree with what I said :p

Me to lawyer : Sir/Ma'am what should I do about bitcoin not being mentioned ?

Smug lawyer (holding some btc himself) :

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February 06, 2014, 01:35:49 PM
 #36

I heard the same team has seized mtgox's one method of payment system.
not sure what is up with them, but nothing is gonna effect bitcoin, well. LR was one side wannabe bitcoin anyways.
I am pretty sure they can not do anything on crypto currencies.

Welcome to the forums mate. But you may want to spend some time going through existing posts.
These topics have been discussed 2 weeks ago.
The Seizures have been well documented under the India thread and this discussion should be made in those threads.
[/quote

 Huh
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February 23, 2014, 10:35:32 AM
 #37

The beauty of crypto was NO TAXES on transactions and money exchange. If anyone wants to pay taxes relating to crypto than the original satoshi idea is defeated. I advise everyone to hold high alert deals in bitcoins so these thugs wont be coming after you.

Freedom from banking and taxation slavery Grin
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March 05, 2014, 06:38:13 PM
 #38

Why is this topic on on sticky status?

Does this bitcoin Tax thing make a serious issue?

CODE OF TALENT | IGNITE LEARNING MOTIVATION WITH MICRO-LEARNING ■ ▀ ▄ JOIN THE MICRO-LEARNING REVOLUTION ▄ ▀ ■
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March 05, 2014, 07:02:41 PM
 #39

Why is this topic on on sticky status?

Does this bitcoin Tax thing make a serious issue?

No it doesnt, people are just happy to feed more to corrupt governments
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March 06, 2014, 05:37:20 AM
 #40

Tax Tax Tax...

You are mining. You are earning.
You are using subsidized power.
Pay your Tax.

Income tax is not very high when compared to other countries. There are ways in which the tax can be reduced greatly reduced.

Consult a good tax agent. There are options for saving taxes using bonds and investment products.

Remember that the Government runs efficient only when it's people pay taxes properly. Paying taxes is our duty. Saying the government is corrupt is just another reason to evade taxing. India is far better than many other countries in corruption, economic growth and development. Love your country.


Thanks.
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