[OMG] - Pumped up by a botnet?

[greyworld]

So I'm watching OMG when I noticed it's having a really nice day, surging up steadily.

I think, ok, i'll get in on that, and try to place a bid in for a little under market.  Instantly my buy is sniped by 1 sat by someone with a much larger order.  I figure that's just how the market goes, whatever.  So I try a couple other bids. Every time, the same large sized order snipes my bid by 1 sat.

How is this possible?  It's fine to snipe someone at random, that happens.  But my bids were all over the place, and every time, 1 sat snipe guy sat right over me with a large order.  He wasn't sniping other users, just mine (even though, as far as I know, Bittrex won't tell you who placed an order, there is no good way to identify who an order came from although the size and bid amount can be a clue).

The only way that could work is if almost all of the trades currently going through are from a network of bots trading to each other, co-ordinating their bids to make sure that if you buy, it's at slightly over market rate or better.  They congest the bids with their own orders to make sure you can't get in at a decent deal.  And gradually, the price moves up (as it has been).  Until one moment, they all liquidate in unison, back down to where it was before this began.

Careful with OMG right now.  I believe the surge you are seeing in price is false and manipulated, and as soon as they can, they'll drop it right back down.

[1714891465]

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[1714891465]

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[faitaccompli]

Not just OMG. I've seen it used on plenty of other coins. Probably an algorithm that evaluates every new order and if they feel it's large enough, they'll snipe it. I've combated it by placing a lot of small orders randomly spaced out.

[greyworld]

Not just OMG. I've seen it used on plenty of other coins. Probably an algorithm that evaluates every new order and if they feel it's large enough, they'll snipe it. I've combated it by placing a lot of small orders randomly spaced out.

That's a great strategy, thanks I'll try that.

[aceptamosbitcoin]

How can bots pump a coin?

By buying the coin and making hype around it or? This seems an expensive way for me as you can't be successful every time. And you could end up with a worthless coin.

[greyworld]

How can bots pump a coin?

By buying the coin and making hype around it or? This seems an expensive way for me as you can't be successful every time. And you could end up with a worthless coin.

Buy making sure that any buys that come in are at or above market rate, even a small amount.  My background as a programmer makes this pattern of behavior more obvious to me, but it can be hard to spot.  Take care.

[Za1n]

Well unless you are running a bot yourself this is usually harmless. Yes the bot is feeling out the order book and it will routinely add and remove bids to see what the legitimate ones are. I don't think it is a sign of manipulation as much as just a profitable coin to make money off using bots. Unless you are day trading, or something, just place bids at market order prices. In the grand scheme of things, 1 or two sats price difference isn't going to make or break your trades.

[dadonn]

I know exactly what you're talking about. I call it the loop de loop. A lot of coins do this and although I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I think the exchanges themselves do this to keep the coins appearing fresh and active. However, I've observed more to keep the pot stirred and generate volume versus profiteering. NEO went from 88-93 for days and OMG has it's loop as well. What I surmised is that it's hoping to seduce buyers into an entry at the low or give the illusion that the coin is about to pop as it heads higher. The non-artificial volume seems to set the price. OMG seems up about 5-7% the last few days on less than convincing volume. If it's going down again, I would think that the genuine volume is not quite there yet. That said, I think it's headed generally North as it consolidated in a pretty tight band since 8/19 or so.

The slicker buying/selling bots seem to run a two-way algorithm- for example, if you want to unload 25k a day, it will sell 50k worth and buy 25k, usually in very small batches. You as a programmer could speak more to this than I could but thought I'd share something because I stare at this stuff too damn much.

Cheers

[greyworld]

Well unless you are running a bot yourself this is usually harmless. Yes the bot is feeling out the order book and it will routinely add and remove bids to see what the legitimate ones are. I don't think it is a sign of manipulation as much as just a profitable coin to make money off using bots. Unless you are day trading, or something, just place bids at market order prices. In the grand scheme of things, 1 or two sats price difference isn't going to make or break your trades.

What will break your trades though is this behavior over time pumping up a coin which really doesn't have the legs to sustain that price.  When they pull the plug and liquidate, the price craters and it's for a lot more than a few sat.  Just look at OMG's chart for today by minute and you can see it happen several times.  This is not random behavior.

[greyworld]

I know exactly what you're talking about. I call it the loop de loop. A lot of coins do this and although I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I think the exchanges themselves do this to keep the coins appearing fresh and active. However, I've observed more to keep the pot stirred and generate volume versus profiteering. NEO went from 88-93 for days and OMG has it's loop as well. What I surmised is that it's hoping to seduce buyers into an entry at the low or give the illusion that the coin is about to pop as it heads higher. The non-artificial volume seems to set the price. OMG seems up about 5-7% the last few days on less than convincing volume. If it's going down again, I would think that the genuine volume is not quite there yet. That said, I think it's headed generally North as it consolidated in a pretty tight band since 8/19 or so.

The slicker buying/selling bots seem to run a two-way algorithm- for example, if you want to unload 25k a day, it will sell 50k worth and buy 25k, usually in very small batches. You as a programmer could speak more to this than I could but thought I'd share something because I stare at this stuff too damn much.

Cheers

Yeah I think you hit the nail on the head there.  Good luck!

[BMG86]

I know exactly what you're talking about. I call it the loop de loop. A lot of coins do this and although I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I think the exchanges themselves do this to keep the coins appearing fresh and active. However, I've observed more to keep the pot stirred and generate volume versus profiteering. NEO went from 88-93 for days and OMG has it's loop as well. What I surmised is that it's hoping to seduce buyers into an entry at the low or give the illusion that the coin is about to pop as it heads higher. The non-artificial volume seems to set the price. OMG seems up about 5-7% the last few days on less than convincing volume. If it's going down again, I would think that the genuine volume is not quite there yet. That said, I think it's headed generally North as it consolidated in a pretty tight band since 8/19 or so.

The slicker buying/selling bots seem to run a two-way algorithm- for example, if you want to unload 25k a day, it will sell 50k worth and buy 25k, usually in very small batches. You as a programmer could speak more to this than I could but thought I'd share something because I stare at this stuff too damn much.

Cheers

Yeah I think you hit the nail on the head there.  Good luck!

Exactly what I've been thinking. I believe the exchanges are the ones who have been manipulating the prices of these coins.

Another thing I've always wondered is how do all of these exchanges manage to stay in sync for the most part with the prices of cryptos?

[reginalkri]

I've seen similar stuff, I believe it was with Neo. I wanted to make a bid, about every second the bids were going up by one satoshi. Very steadily, 1,2,3,4,5. I put 6, then, 7, 8, 8,10, and so on. Very steadily. I then decided to put say 40, it's going 11, 12, 13, I put my 40, and without missing a beat, 41, 42, 43, 44.

Conclusion, it won't make me buy, letting the price go higher and higher.

[greyworld]

So I went to Bittrex's slack to discuss this a bit.  As expected, the response was dismissive at best, downright hostile from the bot developers (go figure).

I think I have a fairly easy solution, so I went to go suggest it.

Half way to fixing the problem:  Visually identify orders that originate from the API (bots).

The bot programmers in #api-developers were extremely combative about this.  I think that's a strong indicator that they know it would fix a lot of the problem, costing them scam money and so they are naturally aggressive in response.

But the bittrex support staff's response was also interesting.  My suggestion was met with instant, pre-orchestrated dismissal.  As if they are used to hearing these kind of statements, and have a script to follow when they come up.  'Customer dislikes the bots?  Say this.'

Bittrex apparently has no intention of making any efforts, no matter how trivial, to correct this issue.  As one user mentioned, bots are highly profitable for Bittrex, so why would they take any action against their behavior?  I tried to explain that long term they are toxic to the community and eventually their customer base will simply leave, but that was disregarded.  I suppose time will tell.  Fads come, fads go, if Bittrex doesn't take action to correct toxic elements of the community they are a part of and are actively condoning, there will be an inevitable response to this inaction that has nothing to do with me.  I'm just a concerned observer from the sidelines.

[krizniq]

No volume?
What u r talking about, it's got almost same volume as monero in the last 24h

Maybe bots, but volume is definitely there and omise is making good progress so far, definitely still undervaluated.

[reginalkri]

So I went to Bittrex's slack to discuss this a bit.  As expected, the response was dismissive at best, downright hostile from the bot developers (go figure).

I think I have a fairly easy solution, so I went to go suggest it.

Half way to fixing the problem:  Visually identify orders that originate from the API (bots).

The bot programmers in #api-developers were extremely combative about this.  I think that's a strong indicator that they know it would fix a lot of the problem, costing them scam money and so they are naturally aggressive in response.

But the bittrex support staff's response was also interesting.  My suggestion was met with instant, pre-orchestrated dismissal.  As if they are used to hearing these kind of statements, and have a script to follow when they come up.  'Customer dislikes the bots?  Say this.'

Bittrex apparently has no intention of making any efforts, no matter how trivial, to correct this issue.  As one user mentioned, bots are highly profitable for Bittrex, so why would they take any action against their behavior?  I tried to explain that long term they are toxic to the community and eventually their customer base will simply leave, but that was disregarded.  I suppose time will tell.  Fads come, fads go, if Bittrex doesn't take action to correct toxic elements of the community they are a part of and are actively condoning, there will be an inevitable response to this inaction that has nothing to do with me.  I'm just a concerned observer from the sidelines.

This one spot where government intervention would help. The bots are obvious, and if an entitity can make money from it, then you can assume it will be taken advantage off. Even by users and their own bots.

[GAVlNBelson]

Could this also be classified as wash trading...?

very interesting observations people.

[nevermindthebotox]

bitfinex OMG at the moment 0.01 orders one after another...

imo it's about to dump hard

[Artdealer]

No volume?
What u r talking about, it's got almost same volume as monero in the last 24h

Maybe bots, but volume is definitely there and omise is making good progress so far, definitely still undervaluated.

Omise is one of the most the well connected established companies entering crypto in Asia