KnCMiner Openday Wednesday 5th & Monday 10th June

[Bitcoinorama]

I'm assuming you can buy without VAT as a business but in this community no one is really registered as a business.

It really depends. If you are inside the EU, and you have a registered intracomunitary EU tax VAT number, supposedly you can buy without VAT because it is an intracomunitary purchase.

If you are outside the EU, you have to buy without VAT in any case, but then you can deduct/recoup that amount when filing your tax papers.

FTFY ^^

It's really not that complicated:

1/ you are a EU resident without a VAT number -> you pay the VAT

2/ you are a EU resident/business with a VAT number
    A/ you are in the same country as the seller -> you pay the VAT but get it back with the tax return
    B/ you are not in the same country -> you do not pay the VAT (Intra-EU sale)

3/ you are not in the EU -> you do not pay the VAT

4/ you are a tourist but do not reside in the EU -> you pay the VAT but can get it back, say at the airport, when you leave the country.

In addition to what KS just mentioned, w.r.t. point 4/; if you have ever travelled by plane anywhere you see the forms and the signs regarding duty free travel all over the airport. If in doubt ask at ANY of the stores in the departure lounge what to do...as that's their entire sales pitch.

[1713430105]

1713430105

[retro72]

Having said that, if you want to wait to pay until after you have seen a fully working prototype of Jupiter you are more than welcome to do so.

That's all nice, but will that mean getting your miner later? My order is well in the 3xxx range, so will there be a difference in the time of delivery if I pay after you have demoed the Jupiter, as opposed to paying immediately after you open the orders?

All in all though I'd much rather travel to Sweden and pick up my unit and transfer most of the money then, in form of BTC - perhaps after paying a certain percentage to reserve the unit to reduce risks on your end; but that being said risks and the amount of time it'd require to do this en masse would probably make this option impractical and/or impossible.

Picking up the Miner and pay them in person in  the form of BTC is cool and paying them a certain percentage to reserve a unit is another good point before the unit is ready for pickup.

This^

I think a reservation fee of 10% would be a much fairer way of doing things if you are going to open up the order book any time soon. This reduces the exposure, especially for those of us considering buying multiple units. A 50-60k risk is a huge amount. 5k while harsh is more bearable. Even with your guarantee there is nothing to stop you liquidating the company and leaving everyone high and dry.

Also you should arrange to take direct credit card payments. In the UK, we have buyer protection for up to six years under section 75 of the consumer credit act. This is not applicable if you go through a third party ie paypal. As long as we pay at least £100 directly to you we are covered for up to £30000.

Things like this would give people a lot more peace of mind. Lets not forget many people have been ripped off before. The more you can do to mitigate that the better for everyone, yourself included.

[Bitcoinorama]

Having said that, if you want to wait to pay until after you have seen a fully working prototype of Jupiter you are more than welcome to do so.

That's all nice, but will that mean getting your miner later? My order is well in the 3xxx range, so will there be a difference in the time of delivery if I pay after you have demoed the Jupiter, as opposed to paying immediately after you open the orders?

All in all though I'd much rather travel to Sweden and pick up my unit and transfer most of the money then, in form of BTC - perhaps after paying a certain percentage to reserve the unit to reduce risks on your end; but that being said risks and the amount of time it'd require to do this en masse would probably make this option impractical and/or impossible.

Picking up the Miner and pay them in person in  the form of BTC is cool and paying them a certain percentage to reserve a unit is another good point before the unit is ready for pickup.

This^

I think a reservation fee of 10% would be a much fairer way of doing things if you are going to open up the order book any time soon. This reduces the exposure, especially for those of us considering buying multiple units. A 50-60k risk is a huge amount. 5k while harsh is more bearable. Even with your guarantee there is nothing to stop you liquidating the company and leaving everyone high and dry.

Also you should arrange to take direct credit card payments. In the UK, we have buyer protection for up to six years under section 75 of the consumer credit act. This is not applicable if you go through a third party ie paypal. As long as we pay at least £100 directly to you we are covered for up to £30000.

Things like this would give people a lot more peace of mind. Lets not forget many people have been ripped off before. The more you can do to mitigate that the better for everyone, yourself included.

There is a maximum of 3 unit purchases from what someone had ascertained via an email with Sam. They posted this yesterday.

I did not know that about the six year buyer protection though or the problems Paypal would present to the equation. Will read up on that, thanks.

EDIT: Again, thanks! It is indeed true, Visa/MasterCard stipulate you have upto 120 days after agreed delivery date to initiate a complaint. The card companies assume the risk in this case. Third parties, such as Paypal and Amazon negate that.

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/section75-protect-your-purchases
http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/technical_notes/goods-and-services-bought-with-credit.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2012/jan/20/section-75-chargeback

[dan99]

Having said that, if you want to wait to pay until after you have seen a fully working prototype of Jupiter you are more than welcome to do so.

That's all nice, but will that mean getting your miner later? My order is well in the 3xxx range, so will there be a difference in the time of delivery if I pay after you have demoed the Jupiter, as opposed to paying immediately after you open the orders?

All in all though I'd much rather travel to Sweden and pick up my unit and transfer most of the money then, in form of BTC - perhaps after paying a certain percentage to reserve the unit to reduce risks on your end; but that being said risks and the amount of time it'd require to do this en masse would probably make this option impractical and/or impossible.

Picking up the Miner and pay them in person in  the form of BTC is cool and paying them a certain percentage to reserve a unit is another good point before the unit is ready for pickup.

This^

I think a reservation fee of 10% would be a much fairer way of doing things if you are going to open up the order book any time soon. This reduces the exposure, especially for those of us considering buying multiple units. A 50-60k risk is a huge amount. 5k while harsh is more bearable. Even with your guarantee there is nothing to stop you liquidating the company and leaving everyone high and dry.

Also you should arrange to take direct credit card payments. In the UK, we have buyer protection for up to six years under section 75 of the consumer credit act. This is not applicable if you go through a third party ie paypal. As long as we pay at least £100 directly to you we are covered for up to £30000.

Things like this would give people a lot more peace of mind. Lets not forget many people have been ripped off before. The more you can do to mitigate that the better for everyone, yourself included.

Very good points for our Bro Sam to consider, a Win Win Situation where everyone win and get a fair share and an opportunity to be in this mining business.  Definitely a good business strategy 

[DoomDumas]

I will be really suprised and pleased if KCMiner acheive a 28nm BTC ASIC miner.. This seems quite high end technology ..  Hope they will deliver and succeed.  For sure, I keep an eye on this, and will buy stuff from them when proven true.  I've queue number in the 200, and hope to be able to see proof of working stuff before being ask to pay !

I'm a pro-miner, with a company..

[Fishbones]

I need help understanding what a "Professional Cryptocurrency Miner" is?

How does one register as a "Professional Cryptocurrency Miner" when Cryptocurrency officialy does not exist?
If I can eventually register an IT company of sorts for the purpose of mining Cryptocurrency, how do justify the NEED for a Hashing Machine for my business?

How do I file the tax return if I have all in BTC for example?
If some Professional Cryptocurrency Miner could please explain,  I would be much obliged.

With regards to KNC's VAT or no VAT on their site.... Nowhere on there does it mention that VAT is not included, nor that it is not for consumers in general.

This to me is misleading and false advertising. If money had already been exchanged, KNC would be hearing from my lawyer.

[Xialla]

I need help understanding what a "Professional Cryptocurrency Miner" is?

How does one register as a "Professional Cryptocurrency Miner" when Cryptocurrency officialy does not exist?
If I can eventually register an IT company of sorts for the purpose of mining Cryptocurrency, how do justify the NEED for a Hashing Machine for my business?

How do I file the tax return if I have all in BTC for example?
If some Professional Cryptocurrency Miner could please explain,  I would be much obliged.

With regards to KNC's VAT or no VAT on their site.... Nowhere on there does it mention that VAT is not included, nor that it is not for consumers in general.

This to me is misleading and false advertising. If money had already been exchanged, KNC would be hearing from my lawyer.

yes, from my point of view was explanation why prices are excluded also funny.) next time will be better to just post, that VAT is excluded from the first day (when they launch the webpage or/and announce new products)

otherwise, now it is clear. you should always buy miners from other guys, you are not pushed to buy anything here and you don't pay any deposit etc. involve lawyer is useless and stupid for this case.

[leckey]

How do I file the tax return if I have all in BTC for example?

In this instance you'd have expenditure (on the mining machines) but no valid income (as you'd be holding it in BTC). But if you sell it on an exchange, then the income gained from that would be taxable.
If that's what you mean?

[Bitcoinorama]

I need help understanding what a "Professional Cryptocurrency Miner" is?

How does one register as a "Professional Cryptocurrency Miner" when Cryptocurrency officialy does not exist?
If I can eventually register an IT company of sorts for the purpose of mining Cryptocurrency, how do justify the NEED for a Hashing Machine for my business?

How do I file the tax return if I have all in BTC for example?
If some Professional Cryptocurrency Miner could please explain,  I would be much obliged.

With regards to KNC's VAT or no VAT on their site.... Nowhere on there does it mention that VAT is not included, nor that it is not for consumers in general.

This to me is misleading and false advertising. If money had already been exchanged, KNC would be hearing from my lawyer.

Ok once again this has been discussed at length in the other thread. I also posted a link regarding the EU E-Commerce regulations as to what has to be displayed on the website two days ago.

Yes legally they have to mention whether the price does include VAT or whether it is exempt, as well as accurate shipping costs and the full amount, but then they are not requesting funds yet so they aren't breaking any laws. The site as is, is a rough draft until they are set up for and requesting payments. Although admittedly I had hoped prices were inclusive as that is generally the EU norm and should have been made clearer.

You justify the needs your your hashing machine as a means to realise gains in the future.

The virtual currency is not recognised, but the fiat once exchanged is and dependant on your local laws that is where you pay. In the UK it would be deemed, 'Capital Gains' from selling an object, virtual or not. The exact same as if I was buying and selling shares. We have a £8k threshold here before capital gains becomes payable. That would also be subject to income tax dependant on how it effects your cumulative income and local governments income taxing. Most companies do not achieve a profit in their first year as it is due to expense for equipment and set-up costs.

I would be a lot more obliging if you took the time to read threads and asked questions that furthered the thread's already answered queries;

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=170332.0

[Fishbones]

I have been following the other thread and nowhere has KNC publicly announced that their site is directed towards "Professional Miners", therefore no VAT included in price-list.
Because I have been following these threads I was convinced that KNC is not a scam and was financially prepared, (as a hobbie, i.e. common all-garden consumer) to invest in their machines, but, suddenly the price, for my initial investment plans, just went up over €5000 for VAT. Upsetting innit?

[Rampion]

I have been following the other thread and nowhere has KNC publicly announced that their site is directed towards "Professional Miners", therefore no VAT included in price-list.
Because I have been following these threads I was convinced that KNC is not a scam and was financially prepared, (as a hobbie, i.e. common all-garden consumer) to invest in their machines, but, suddenly the price, for my initial investment plans, just went up over €5000 for VAT. Upsetting innit?

So you were planning to buy 4/5 units. Then just create a limited responsibility company, it will cost you way less than 1000€. You will need to have a minimum capital to start the company, but that capital is not "blocked", so it can be very well be a part of the fiat you will use to buy the units, and use it for that purpose.

If you don't want to create a company, just bill it to a company's friend. Anyhow, if you have the money for 4/5 units it will not be a problem at all for you to register a EU VAT number.

[KS]

They keep changing this and that and never give complete or exhaustive answers to everything.

You can 't really do anything about it for now, you have to wait until they setup a proper website with term & conditions and whatnot.

[glowkeeper]

I have been following the other thread and nowhere has KNC publicly announced that their site is directed towards "Professional Miners", therefore no VAT included in price-list.
Because I have been following these threads I was convinced that KNC is not a scam and was financially prepared, (as a hobbie, i.e. common all-garden consumer) to invest in their machines, but, suddenly the price, for my initial investment plans, just went up over €5000 for VAT. Upsetting innit?

So you were planning to buy 4/5 units. Then just create a limited responsibility company, it will cost you way less than 1000€. You will need to have a minimum capital to start the company, but that capital is not "blocked", so it can be very well be a part of the fiat you will use to buy the units, and use it for that purpose.

If you don't want to create a company, just bill it to a company's friend. Anyhow, if you have the money for 4/5 units it will not be a problem at all for you to register a EU VAT number.

I'm not sure this is good advice; at least as far as UK tax law is concerned (and the same may well apply for other EC countries, but I suggest one should go find out). Basically, a finance friend of mine looked into this idea in detail and offered the following wisdom:

Even if one set up a company, the company does not technically qualify for VAT because it is not "in business according to the definition that HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) uses for VAT purposes." Many people would consider setting up a company, registering for VAT anyway, getting a number and skipping VAT.  They are essentially relying on the fact that they would never be audited, which is true.  Or, they haven't really read through the rules.

[Rampion]

I have been following the other thread and nowhere has KNC publicly announced that their site is directed towards "Professional Miners", therefore no VAT included in price-list.
Because I have been following these threads I was convinced that KNC is not a scam and was financially prepared, (as a hobbie, i.e. common all-garden consumer) to invest in their machines, but, suddenly the price, for my initial investment plans, just went up over €5000 for VAT. Upsetting innit?

So you were planning to buy 4/5 units. Then just create a limited responsibility company, it will cost you way less than 1000€. You will need to have a minimum capital to start the company, but that capital is not "blocked", so it can be very well be a part of the fiat you will use to buy the units, and use it for that purpose.

If you don't want to create a company, just bill it to a company's friend. Anyhow, if you have the money for 4/5 units it will not be a problem at all for you to register a EU VAT number.

I'm not sure this is good advice; at least as far as UK tax law is concerned (and the same may well apply for other EC countries, but I suggest one should go find out). Basically, a finance friend of mine looked into this idea in detail and offered the following wisdom:

Even if one set up a company, the company does not technically qualify for VAT because it is not "in business according to the definition that HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) uses for VAT purposes." Many people would consider setting up a company, registering for VAT anyway, getting a number and skipping VAT.  They are essentially relying on the fact that they would never be audited, which is true.  Or, they haven't really read through the rules.

Well, many of us have registered companies for different purposes. It's not a big deal, and if you deal professionally with something it's definitely worth it. I would qualify spending +25.000€ on mining equipment as Fishbones is planning to do a "professional" investment, and I would use a company for sure for that purpose. 21% VAT (or 23%, or even 25% in some countries) it's a big amount of money that you cannot recoup in any way if you make the purchase as a "consumer".

[KS]

I have been following the other thread and nowhere has KNC publicly announced that their site is directed towards "Professional Miners", therefore no VAT included in price-list.
Because I have been following these threads I was convinced that KNC is not a scam and was financially prepared, (as a hobbie, i.e. common all-garden consumer) to invest in their machines, but, suddenly the price, for my initial investment plans, just went up over €5000 for VAT. Upsetting innit?

So you were planning to buy 4/5 units. Then just create a limited responsibility company, it will cost you way less than 1000€. You will need to have a minimum capital to start the company, but that capital is not "blocked", so it can be very well be a part of the fiat you will use to buy the units, and use it for that purpose.

If you don't want to create a company, just bill it to a company's friend. Anyhow, if you have the money for 4/5 units it will not be a problem at all for you to register a EU VAT number.

I'm not sure this is good advice; at least as far as UK tax law is concerned (and the same may well apply for other EC countries, but I suggest one should go find out). Basically, a finance friend of mine looked into this idea in detail and offered the following wisdom:

Even if one set up a company, the company does not technically qualify for VAT because it is not "in business according to the definition that HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) uses for VAT purposes." Many people would consider setting up a company, registering for VAT anyway, getting a number and skipping VAT.  They are essentially relying on the fact that they would never be audited, which is true.  Or, they haven't really read through the rules.

Quoting HMRC:
"What is business for VAT purposes?

You can only register for VAT if you're in business. HMRC defines a business as a continuing activity involving getting paid for providing goods or services - in money or another form of payment such as in-kind or barter.

You are in business when, for example:

    you earn an income by carrying on a trade, vocation or profession - by being self-employed or through another entity such as a limited company
    you provide membership benefits as a club, association or similar body in return for a subscription or other form of payment
    you provide certain other activities as a club or other recreational body, charity or other non-profit making body
    you charge admission to a premises

To be in business, these activities must have a degree of frequency and scale and be continued over a period of time.

Even if your activities have some or all the characteristics of a business, they may not be considered a business for VAT purposes if they are essentially a recreation or hobby, or an isolated transaction. So if you only make occasional VAT taxable supplies, or your supplies are minimal, it may be that you don't need to register for VAT. The one-off or infrequent sale of your personal belongings at a car boot sale or auction, for example, would fall into this category - but buying goods for resale on a regular basis is definitely a business activity."

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/start/register/when-to-register.htm

To me it looks you're in business when you're a pro miner.

[Rampion]

I have been following the other thread and nowhere has KNC publicly announced that their site is directed towards "Professional Miners", therefore no VAT included in price-list.
Because I have been following these threads I was convinced that KNC is not a scam and was financially prepared, (as a hobbie, i.e. common all-garden consumer) to invest in their machines, but, suddenly the price, for my initial investment plans, just went up over €5000 for VAT. Upsetting innit?

So you were planning to buy 4/5 units. Then just create a limited responsibility company, it will cost you way less than 1000€. You will need to have a minimum capital to start the company, but that capital is not "blocked", so it can be very well be a part of the fiat you will use to buy the units, and use it for that purpose.

If you don't want to create a company, just bill it to a company's friend. Anyhow, if you have the money for 4/5 units it will not be a problem at all for you to register a EU VAT number.

I'm not sure this is good advice; at least as far as UK tax law is concerned (and the same may well apply for other EC countries, but I suggest one should go find out). Basically, a finance friend of mine looked into this idea in detail and offered the following wisdom:

Even if one set up a company, the company does not technically qualify for VAT because it is not "in business according to the definition that HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) uses for VAT purposes." Many people would consider setting up a company, registering for VAT anyway, getting a number and skipping VAT.  They are essentially relying on the fact that they would never be audited, which is true.  Or, they haven't really read through the rules.

Quoting HMRC:
"What is business for VAT purposes?

You can only register for VAT if you're in business. HMRC defines a business as a continuing activity involving getting paid for providing goods or services - in money or another form of payment such as in-kind or barter.

You are in business when, for example:

    you earn an income by carrying on a trade, vocation or profession - by being self-employed or through another entity such as a limited company
    you provide membership benefits as a club, association or similar body in return for a subscription or other form of payment
    you provide certain other activities as a club or other recreational body, charity or other non-profit making body
    you charge admission to a premises

To be in business, these activities must have a degree of frequency and scale and be continued over a period of time.

Even if your activities have some or all the characteristics of a business, they may not be considered a business for VAT purposes if they are essentially a recreation or hobby, or an isolated transaction. So if you only make occasional VAT taxable supplies, or your supplies are minimal, it may be that you don't need to register for VAT. The one-off or infrequent sale of your personal belongings at a car boot sale or auction, for example, would fall into this category - but buying goods for resale on a regular basis is definitely a business activity."

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/start/register/when-to-register.htm

To me it looks you're in business when you're a pro miner.

Yes, you obviously are. I know I am

[Bitcoinorama]

I have been following the other thread and nowhere has KNC publicly announced that their site is directed towards "Professional Miners", therefore no VAT included in price-list.
Because I have been following these threads I was convinced that KNC is not a scam and was financially prepared, (as a hobbie, i.e. common all-garden consumer) to invest in their machines, but, suddenly the price, for my initial investment plans, just went up over €5000 for VAT. Upsetting innit?

So you were planning to buy 4/5 units. Then just create a limited responsibility company, it will cost you way less than 1000€. You will need to have a minimum capital to start the company, but that capital is not "blocked", so it can be very well be a part of the fiat you will use to buy the units, and use it for that purpose.

If you don't want to create a company, just bill it to a company's friend. Anyhow, if you have the money for 4/5 units it will not be a problem at all for you to register a EU VAT number.

I'm not sure this is good advice; at least as far as UK tax law is concerned (and the same may well apply for other EC countries, but I suggest one should go find out). Basically, a finance friend of mine looked into this idea in detail and offered the following wisdom:

Even if one set up a company, the company does not technically qualify for VAT because it is not "in business according to the definition that HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) uses for VAT purposes." Many people would consider setting up a company, registering for VAT anyway, getting a number and skipping VAT.  They are essentially relying on the fact that they would never be audited, which is true.  Or, they haven't really read through the rules.

Quoting HMRC:
"What is business for VAT purposes?

You can only register for VAT if you're in business. HMRC defines a business as a continuing activity involving getting paid for providing goods or services - in money or another form of payment such as in-kind or barter.

You are in business when, for example:

    you earn an income by carrying on a trade, vocation or profession - by being self-employed or through another entity such as a limited company
    you provide membership benefits as a club, association or similar body in return for a subscription or other form of payment
    you provide certain other activities as a club or other recreational body, charity or other non-profit making body
    you charge admission to a premises

To be in business, these activities must have a degree of frequency and scale and be continued over a period of time.

Even if your activities have some or all the characteristics of a business, they may not be considered a business for VAT purposes if they are essentially a recreation or hobby, or an isolated transaction. So if you only make occasional VAT taxable supplies, or your supplies are minimal, it may be that you don't need to register for VAT. The one-off or infrequent sale of your personal belongings at a car boot sale or auction, for example, would fall into this category - but buying goods for resale on a regular basis is definitely a business activity."

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/start/register/when-to-register.htm

To me it looks you're in business when you're a pro miner.

Especially, and this is the crucial part; when you choose to realise the value of the coins in their fiat currency.

[jimmy3dita]

The VAT vs EU laws is a Very interesting thread, but what about the Openday? Any news?

[KS]

The VAT vs EU laws is a Very interesting thread, but what about the Openday? Any news?

Dude, I think you're in the WRONG thread!

[bitpop]

I'm sick of vat