KnCMiner Openday Wednesday 5th & Monday 10th June

[KS]

What's sad is that you're serious! Has it occurred to you as to why a KNC thread may be popular? Probably not, so I'll explain it to you very slowly.

When KNC arrived on the scene, there were a slew of other ASIC companies trying to scam the community. They're all gone now, leaving only KNC. The mega posts on KNC's threads is contributed to a myriad of those that's been trying to ferret out the truth.

Now, think about the the post you quoted. I was pointing out that even though you wanted the funny to stop, you yourself have resorted to the same practice you're claiming to want me to stop doing.

Here's some another sad fact: Conning people is not FUNNY!

It's amazing that you're taking the time to stick it up the ass of the person who is trying to help you.

Phin, with all due respect, kindly, I appreciate you're intentions are probably sincere, but the onslaught if scams has not decreased, the demands of the potential buyers for security, has however, justifiably increased.

Today, in the past 24 hours alone there have been 4-5 more potential scams. A laughable attempt from theasics.com, some shady Russian Bitfury group buys and BFL's own bulk chip scam that no one wants to seriously group buy, largely because their quality control is lacking, chips unstable and people trust the group buy organisers over the company responsible in producing the chips.

KnC's thread has so much conversation because they appear to be moving in the right direction, been true to their word (so far), and partnered with a respectable company, ORSoC, with a decades experience in developing both FPGAs, ASICs, and their respective control boards, as well as the largest open source integrated circuit website and forum, opencores.org, of which three that head that company are directors and share liability with Andreas Kennemar and Sam Cole, who are also IT engineering literate professionally with years of experience in financial institutions. They have also taken aboard suggestions and where possible so far, obliged them, including meeting in person, demonstrating prototypes and being generally good sports answering emails fairly, which is expected.

Their final hurdle in requesting prepayment is the choice of payment method and the buyer protection it offers. If they want to scam, they can scam the credit card companies (Visa & MC) as far as I'm concerned. I'm happy to be passed the additional commission for that to take place.

It's not that we don't see you trying to help, it's just that your research is so slapdash and you often jump upon something labelling it gospel, without thinking it through.

No one should make excuses for KnC, they are big boys now, and they are the one's that have to prove themselves sincere. The fact is, as far as I can see they are trying to do that, and not trying to repeat the mistakes of other companies.

Let's give them that chance, personally I think reselling pre-orders is messy, but they want to have control over that.  If they do I feel they should wait until funds from pre-orders are received, and they should charge a commission relevant to time required and to discourage multiple name changes...and probably to hire someone else to deal with it....

Just my 2μBTC

Also for what it's worth KnC are advertising on the opencores.org homepage now, obviously free advertising, but it's further statement of ORSoC affiliation.

Although I am sure you believe what you say, there is still no contractual evidence to your arguments. So far, none of what you are saying is implemented. It's a lot of air and no substance.

When all of that will be in print on their website, and they will be respecting the EU laws (Terms, VAT, whatnot), THEN what you say will make sense.

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[KS]

entering reality warp zone in 3...2...1....

Being what oh guru...?

You can call me Master, guru is so passé.

[KS]

entering reality warp zone in 3...2...1....

Being what oh guru...?

You can call me Master, guru is so passé.

My Lord has a ring to it as well...hmmm...

[Bitcoinorama]

What's sad is that you're serious! Has it occurred to you as to why a KNC thread may be popular? Probably not, so I'll explain it to you very slowly.

When KNC arrived on the scene, there were a slew of other ASIC companies trying to scam the community. They're all gone now, leaving only KNC. The mega posts on KNC's threads is contributed to a myriad of those that's been trying to ferret out the truth.

Now, think about the the post you quoted. I was pointing out that even though you wanted the funny to stop, you yourself have resorted to the same practice you're claiming to want me to stop doing.

Here's some another sad fact: Conning people is not FUNNY!

It's amazing that you're taking the time to stick it up the ass of the person who is trying to help you.

Phin, with all due respect, kindly, I appreciate you're intentions are probably sincere, but the onslaught if scams has not decreased, the demands of the potential buyers for security, has however, justifiably increased.

Today, in the past 24 hours alone there have been 4-5 more potential scams. A laughable attempt from theasics.com, some shady Russian Bitfury group buys and BFL's own bulk chip scam that no one wants to seriously group buy, largely because their quality control is lacking, chips unstable and people trust the group buy organisers over the company responsible in producing the chips.

KnC's thread has so much conversation because they appear to be moving in the right direction, been true to their word (so far), and partnered with a respectable company, ORSoC, with a decades experience in developing both FPGAs, ASICs, and their respective control boards, as well as the largest open source integrated circuit website and forum, opencores.org, of which three that head that company are directors and share liability with Andreas Kennemar and Sam Cole, who are also IT engineering literate professionally with years of experience in financial institutions. They have also taken aboard suggestions and where possible so far, obliged them, including meeting in person, demonstrating prototypes and being generally good sports answering emails fairly, which is expected.

Their final hurdle in requesting prepayment is the choice of payment method and the buyer protection it offers. If they want to scam, they can scam the credit card companies (Visa & MC) as far as I'm concerned. I'm happy to be passed the additional commission for that to take place.

It's not that we don't see you trying to help, it's just that your research is so slapdash and you often jump upon something labelling it gospel, without thinking it through.

No one should make excuses for KnC, they are big boys now, and they are the one's that have to prove themselves sincere. The fact is, as far as I can see they are trying to do that, and not trying to repeat the mistakes of other companies.

Let's give them that chance, personally I think reselling pre-orders is messy, but they want to have control over that.  If they do I feel they should wait until funds from pre-orders are received, and they should charge a commission relevant to time required and to discourage multiple name changes...and probably to hire someone else to deal with it....

Just my 2μBTC

Also for what it's worth KnC are advertising on the opencores.org homepage now, obviously free advertising, but it's further statement of ORSoC affiliation.

Although I am sure you believe what you say, there is still no contractual evidence to your arguments. So far, none of what you are saying is implemented. It's a lot of air and no substance.

When all of that will be in print on their website, and they will be respecting the EU laws (Terms, VAT, whatnot), THEN what you say will make sense.

Agreed, and they have a legal obligation to do just that. So I'm expecting that as par for the course.

Oh master, my liege...

[ecliptic]

ORSoC partnered with them to make KNCMiner

KNCminer IS ORSoC

People seriously are worried about them?

Sure, nobody is saying they aren't above having technical problems and whatnot.

but ORSoc isn't going to fucking run off with your money


not that it matters, because you won't be getting one until 2014 unless you registered on their website the day they posted the thread, or want to pay 10,000$ for a <500 order (actually a sub <200 order probably because you can buy up to 3x per #)

[Bitcoinorama]

ORSoC partnered with them to make KNCMiner

KNCminer IS ORSoC

People seriously are worried about them?

Sure, nobody is saying they aren't above having technical problems and whatnot.

but ORSoc isn't going to fucking run off with your money

From Sam dated 14/05;

"The ORSoC and Kennemar & Cole relationship has been talked about by many and it’s not a secret but people have made assumptions so I will clear it up for you
 
Me and Andreas (Kennemar & Cole)
Started the idea, contacted ORSoC and showed them our plans, told them we would only do this if they joined us on the venture, a simple customer/supplier relationship was not strong enough for this purpose.
 
So we all started (all 5 of us) a brand new company called KNCMiner. So KncMiner consists of 5 directors. Front of house is us and back of house is ORSoC (best of both worlds) essentially ORSoC don’t get anything unless the product is successful and neither do me or Andreas, so we are all in it 100% and that’s the only way it would of worked.
I hope that helps."

[KS]

ORSoC partnered with them to make KNCMiner

KNCminer IS ORSoC

People seriously are worried about them?

Sure, nobody is saying they aren't above having technical problems and whatnot.

but ORSoc isn't going to fucking run off with your money


not that it matters, because you won't be getting one until 2014 unless you registered on their website the day they posted the thread, or want to pay 10,000$ for a <500 order (actually a sub <200 order probably because you can buy up to 3x per #)

See what bicoinorama re-posted.

ORSoC AB != KNCMINER AB

Same people involved but those are 2 *different* *companies*. Do you still think you will be doing business with ORSoC?

[ecliptic]

ORSoC partnered with them to make KNCMiner

KNCminer IS ORSoC

People seriously are worried about them?

Sure, nobody is saying they aren't above having technical problems and whatnot.

but ORSoc isn't going to fucking run off with your money


not that it matters, because you won't be getting one until 2014 unless you registered on their website the day they posted the thread, or want to pay 10,000$ for a <500 order (actually a sub <200 order probably because you can buy up to 3x per #)

See what bicoinorama re-posted.

ORSoC AB != KNCMINER AB

Same people involved but those are 2 *different* *companies*. Do you still think you will be doing business with ORSoC?

They started the company of 5 people/directors 3 of them from ORSoC (higher-ups) and 2 people from the original KNCMiner proprosal.  that's how i read it.

[KS]

ORSoC partnered with them to make KNCMiner

KNCminer IS ORSoC

People seriously are worried about them?

Sure, nobody is saying they aren't above having technical problems and whatnot.

but ORSoc isn't going to fucking run off with your money


not that it matters, because you won't be getting one until 2014 unless you registered on their website the day they posted the thread, or want to pay 10,000$ for a <500 order (actually a sub <200 order probably because you can buy up to 3x per #)

See what bicoinorama re-posted.

ORSoC AB != KNCMINER AB

Same people involved but those are 2 *different* *companies*. Do you still think you will be doing business with ORSoC?

They started the company of 5 people/directors 3 of them from ORSoC (higher-ups) and 2 people from the original KNCMiner proprosal.  that's how i read it.

And that's all true but your assumption that you will be dealing with ORSoC directly is erroneous.

Same people, different companies, different liabilities and different responsibilities. If KNCMINER fails, ORSoC will not protect you.

[Rampion]

Same people, different companies, different liabilities and different responsibilities. If KNCMINER fails, ORSoC will not protect you.

That's it. If KNCMINER fails, ORSoC can continue business as usual.

[Bitcoinorama]

Same people, different companies, different liabilities and different responsibilities. If KNCMINER fails, ORSoC will not protect you.

That's it. If KNCMINER fails, ORSoC can continue business as usual.

Although one assumes opencores.org's forum will be polluted with angry burnt KnC customers and ORSoC's name as healthy as BFL's currently if anything suspect took place.

This isn't a totally comfortable situation to take such a blazé attitude towards.

I imagine they're confident in achieving this...!

BFL's lot will be hounded to the ends of the earth if they don't realise this ambition!!

[600watt]

ORSoC partnered with them to make KNCMiner

KNCminer IS ORSoC

People seriously are worried about them?

Sure, nobody is saying they aren't above having technical problems and whatnot.

but ORSoc isn't going to fucking run off with your money


not that it matters, because you won't be getting one until 2014 unless you registered on their website the day they posted the thread, or want to pay 10,000$ for a <500 order (actually a sub <200 order probably because you can buy up to 3x per #)

See what bicoinorama re-posted.

ORSoC AB != KNCMINER AB

Same people involved but those are 2 *different* *companies*. Do you still think you will be doing business with ORSoC?

They started the company of 5 people/directors 3 of them from ORSoC (higher-ups) and 2 people from the original KNCMiner proprosal.  that's how i read it.

And that's all true but your assumption that you will be dealing with ORSoC directly is erroneous.

Same people, different companies, different liabilities and different responsibilities. If KNCMINER fails, ORSoC will not protect you.

then demand personal liability. demand orsoc protection. have you done so ? and what did they answer ? my guess is that you are assuming this.  

[KS]

Same people, different companies, different liabilities and different responsibilities. If KNCMINER fails, ORSoC will not protect you.

That's it. If KNCMINER fails, ORSoC can continue business as usual.

Although one assumes opencores.org's forum will be polluted with angry burnt KnC customers and ORSoC's name as healthy as BFL's currently if anything suspect took place.

This isn't a totally comfortable situation to take such a blazé attitude towards.

I imagine they're confident in achieving this...!

BFL's lot will be hounded to the ends of the earth if they don't realise this ambition!!

Good. More incentive for them not to screw up and/or pick up the pieces after the debacle.

[KS]

then demand personal liability. demand orsoc protection. have you done so ? and what did they answer ? my guess is that you are assuming this.  

You guys are not for real...

Try this: "When was the last time you asked for protection from AMD for your burnt XBOX360?" You get the analogy?

[ecliptic]

really don't see why you guys are freaking out about this -- knc miner has already put forth much more documentation and trust then any ASIC company thus far, yes, even more than avalon did when they started

[Bitcoinorama]

really don't see why you guys are freaking out about this -- knc miner has already put forth much more documentation and trust then any ASIC company thus far, yes, even more than avalon did when they started

I'm not I'm cool, I'm just trying to iron out and resolve any logical and irrefutable concerns and suggest a sensible resolution prior to the open day and pre-orderbook opening, so pre-orders can safely be take and KnC and ORSoC can focus on building mining machines and a global brand.

KS, your concern is justified at points, and sometimes you appear very bitter. Are you genuinely considering a purchase? Are the valid concerns, directly attributable to your own decision process, looking out for others or do you just want to see KnC fail??

I notice you appear to be pro-DIY development and I see you express interest in a few riskier threads than this one...

[KS]

Here's my PM to Sam/kncminer. I hope he will clear the ORSoC/KNCMINER confusion:

"Dear Sam,

Could you please state whether ORSoC will issue refunds and/or assume warranty charges in case the KNCMINER AB company cannot continue operationor fails to deliver?

There seems to be an unnaturally high confusion i this forum as to whether ORSoC *is* KNCMINER and whether KNCMINER customers will have a direct lien with ORSoC.

Thank you and sorry for wasting your time with obvious questions.

KS"

[Bitcoinorama]

See that's a spiteful way of asking a straight forward question...

KnC and ORSoC are separate companies with some similar directorship.

ORSoC will have a PR nightmare if this is a scam. These aren't days of hidden dodgy dealings anymore. Social media and motivated angry consumers can do more damage to any interrelated companies than in the past...

It's really a non-issue if you can pay with Visa and MasterCard credit (not debit!) cards. BOTH offer protection of disputes are raised up to 120 days AFTER the promised delivery date, i.e. 120 days after the end of September 2013. The liability is assumed by Visa and MC. That's what their generous interchange fees are there for!!

[Rampion]

Here's my PM to Sam/kncminer. I hope he will clear the ORSoC/KNCMINER confusion:

"Dear Sam,

Could you please state whether ORSoC will issue refunds and/or assume warranty charges in case the KNCMINER AB company cannot continue operationor fails to deliver?

There seems to be an unnaturally high confusion i this forum as to whether ORSoC *is* KNCMINER and whether KNCMINER customers will have a direct lien with ORSoC.

Thank you and sorry for wasting your time with obvious questions.

KS"

Obvious is obvious. KNCMINER and ORSoC and two different companies. ORSoC has no legal liability for whatever KNCMINER, despite of Sam's reply to your message.

Just to sum up the situation: KNCMINER looks 100% legit and in good faith. The risk here is not them "running with your money" ala Cedartek, Primeasic, etc. - the problem is they might be making an overpromise and we could face a "BFL 2" type of situation.

[Rampion]

See that's a spiteful way of asking a straight forward question...

KnC and ORSoC are separate companies with some similar directorship.

ORSoC will have a PR nightmare if this is a scam. These aren't days of hidden dodgy dealings anymore. Social media and motivated angry consumers can do more damage to any interrelated companies than in the past...

This is not going to be a "scam". It's just that what they are promising (28nm chips, 350GH/s for $7,000, delivery in September) looks too good to be easily achieved in such a short timeframe, and they may face problems ala BFL/Avalon (because Avalon is also incurring in huge delays, it's just that compared to BFL they shine, because at least they are delivering something).

Everybody who has been involved in bitcoin FPGA and ASICs (including Yifu) says that it's crazy to the develop a 28nm chip at this point, in the sense that what you would save in electricity, etc. is negligible compared to the huge cost of developing 28nm technology compared to 110nm.

Then, check the lead time between the chips orders and delivery. 10 weeks in the case of Avalon, 100 days (14 weeks) in the case of BFL. I'm quite sure everybody is manufacturing at TSMC, so that's pretty much the timing for the chips - how is it possible that KNC can have everything developed for September, if they are finalizing NOW their FPGA? And to those thinking that TSMC may be faster for KNCMINER because ORSoC is involved... WAKE UP. TSMC is a company with a yearly turnover of +$10B (yes, more than 10 BILLIONS), everybody manufactures at TSMC, they won't "run" for a customer unless that customer is Apple (and maybe not even for them).