KnCMiner Openday Wednesday 5th & Monday 10th June

[KS]

i don't know how it is in other countries. but in germany you can not buy someting without a company vat number and without a trade/companyproof as a private customer at company selling goods only for business use. As a private customer you do not see prices and can't order someting for example at a wholesale website. You have to proof your company first, then you get the posibility to login in a wholesale shop.
KNC could not do the business this way in germany. I dont't know if there a the same rights in sweden.

Can you not buy in Sweden (with their VAT inclusive), pick-up in person, and then reclaim once back in Germany?

i really don't know. I know that they have to use the right percantage of vat in the EU according to the vat percentage where they are selling the goods.
This is for private buyers.

For business use with a vat number and with proof of a company they are not allowed to take vat  with advertising someting for buiness use only  

But in my last post, a meant that a private person is not able to buy something from a seller who is advertising someting for business use only. (in germany)

But surely the fact they have a system able to calculate and add VAT means they can sell to consumers.

In which case, there is a completely different reasoning to why they are making you agree to be a business and that they are proposing to sell to just businesses.

That needs to be clarified tomorrow. It's massively important to know why, as clearly most purchasing are consumers regardless as s the respective credit card buyer protection...

I don't know WTF the are doing with VAT, but UNLESS the have a VAT number in each and every country they charge a different rate for, they have to charge the Swedish VAT and declare it in Sweden. They OBVIOUSLY need to state their VAT number for the country they charge the VAT for. They can't charge 19% for Germany and have their Swedish VAT ID on the invoice.

If they don't follow protocol, they risk ending up in a world of hurt.

[1713560450]

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[1713560450]

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[retro72]

STOP WITH SECTION 75. YOU ARE NOT COVERED.

Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

KNCMINER binds you as a BUSINESS, NOT a consumer.

It doesn't work that way. The seller does not define who the buyer is. If you are a non-professional, a consumer, buying an item for personal use, you are covered as such. If you buy as a registered business, ie. "KS coins Inc", you are not.

and this is what i said. In germany the seller defines it with a proof of company and a company vat number. After that the seller knows, that the buyer is really a company with buing someting for business use and can take money from the buyer...but without take the vat "net-price"  

Hmm... that's interesting. I wonder if its the same in Sweden

[idee2013]

i don't know how it is in other countries. but in germany you can not buy someting without a company vat number and without a trade/companyproof as a private customer at company selling goods only for business use. As a private customer you do not see prices and can't order someting for example at a wholesale website. You have to proof your company first, then you get the posibility to login in a wholesale shop.
KNC could not do the business this way in germany. I dont't know if there a the same rights in sweden.

Can you not buy in Sweden (with their VAT inclusive), pick-up in person, and then reclaim once back in Germany?

i really don't know. I know that they have to use the right percantage of vat in the EU according to the vat percentage where ( to which country)  they are selling the goods.
This is for private buyers.

For business use with a vat number and with proof of a company they are not allowed to take vat  with advertising someting for buiness use only  

But in my last post, a meant that a private person is not able to buy something from a seller who is advertising someting for business use only. (in germany)

Yes you can.

You have to present yourself at the customs in Sweden and ask for a refund, then import the hardware in Germany. You might have to prove export from Sweden, so it's best to still ship it with DHL/FEDEX/UPS, signed for at destination.

Yes if you drive with your car to sweden and back. But at online sells they have to use the right vat percantage (according to EU receiver country) at the order process.

[KS]

...
But in my last post, a meant that a private person is not able to buy something from a seller who is advertising someting for business use only. (in germany)

Yes you can.

You have to present yourself at the customs in Sweden and ask for a refund, then import the hardware in Germany. You might have to prove export from Sweden, so it's best to still ship it with DHL/FEDEX/UPS, signed for at destination.

No, you can not. As a consumer (private person) you can not buy goods from a B2B only company.

I was referring to the VAT issue.

RE the B2B/B2C issue, it really depends how honest the seller... even in Germany (been there, done that )

I don't see KNCMINER enforcing the B2B aspect. They would need to ask for proof you are a business BEFORE letting you order. They're not doing that.

[idee2013]

i don't know how it is in other countries. but in germany you can not buy someting without a company vat number and without a trade/companyproof as a private customer at company selling goods only for business use. As a private customer you do not see prices and can't order someting for example at a wholesale website. You have to proof your company first, then you get the posibility to login in a wholesale shop.
KNC could not do the business this way in germany. I dont't know if there a the same rights in sweden.

Can you not buy in Sweden (with their VAT inclusive), pick-up in person, and then reclaim once back in Germany?

i really don't know. I know that they have to use the right percantage of vat in the EU according to the vat percentage where they are selling the goods.
This is for private buyers.

For business use with a vat number and with proof of a company they are not allowed to take vat  with advertising someting for buiness use only  

But in my last post, a meant that a private person is not able to buy something from a seller who is advertising someting for business use only. (in germany)

But surely the fact they have a system able to calculate and add VAT means they can sell to consumers.

In which case, there is a completely different reasoning to why they are making you agree to be a business and that they are proposing to sell to just businesses.

That needs to be clarified tomorrow. It's massively important to know why, as clearly most purchasing are consumers regardless as s the respective credit card buyer protection...

I don't know WTF the are doing with VAT, but UNLESS the have a VAT number in each and every country they charge a different rate for, they have to charge the Swedish VAT and declare it in Sweden. They OBVIOUSLY need to state their VAT number for the country they charge the VAT for. They can't charge 19% for Germany and have their Swedish VAT ID on the invoice.

If they don't follow protocol, they risk ending up in a world of hurt.

a have posted the rights and limits for sale to other countries. If they want to sell goods over 100,000 € to germany they have to register a german vat number and take only 19% vat. For UK was the limit 70000 Pounds.

[idee2013]

i don't know how it is in other countries. but in germany you can not buy someting without a company vat number and without a trade/companyproof as a private customer at company selling goods only for business use. As a private customer you do not see prices and can't order someting for example at a wholesale website. You have to proof your company first, then you get the posibility to login in a wholesale shop.
KNC could not do the business this way in germany. I dont't know if there a the same rights in sweden.

Can you not buy in Sweden (with their VAT inclusive), pick-up in person, and then reclaim once back in Germany?

i really don't know. I know that they have to use the right percantage of vat in the EU according to the vat percentage where they are selling the goods.
This is for private buyers.

For business use with a vat number and with proof of a company they are not allowed to take vat  with advertising someting for buiness use only  

But in my last post, a meant that a private person is not able to buy something from a seller who is advertising someting for business use only. (in germany)

But surely the fact they have a system able to calculate and add VAT means they can sell to consumers.

In which case, there is a completely different reasoning to why they are making you agree to be a business and that they are proposing to sell to just businesses.

That needs to be clarified tomorrow. It's massively important to know why, as clearly most purchasing are consumers regardless as s the respective credit card buyer protection...

I don't know WTF the are doing with VAT, but UNLESS the have a VAT number in each and every country they charge a different rate for, they have to charge the Swedish VAT and declare it in Sweden. They OBVIOUSLY need to state their VAT number for the country they charge the VAT for. They can't charge 19% for Germany and have their Swedish VAT ID on the invoice.

If they don't follow protocol, they risk ending up in a world of hurt.

a have posted the rights and limits for sale to other countries  in one thread/post. If they want to sell goods over 100,000 € to germany they have to register a german vat number and take only 19% vat. For UK was the limit 70000 Pounds.

here it is https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=170332.msg2327686#msg2327686

[dan99]

STOP WITH SECTION 75. YOU ARE NOT COVERED.

Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

KNCMINER binds you as a BUSINESS, NOT a consumer.

It doesn't work that way. The seller does not define who the buyer is. If you are a non-professional, a consumer, buying an item for personal use, you are covered as such. If you buy as a registered business, ie. "KS coins Inc", you are not.

But KnC's terms & conditions force you to state you are not a consumer but are rather a business.  What does that do to the law?  (I really don't know so I'm asking, not trolling.)

I was very pro-KnC in the beginning but I am becoming less so as the days go forward.  What they did yesterday was a new low.

1) It appears that the Mars would cost more to produce than they were asking for it AND/OR the FGPA lead time was longer than the expected life of the product.  This should have been apparent to ORSoC from the beginning.  Project planning FAIL.

2) At the very least, they should allow customers to put $2800 "down" towards a Jupiter for each Mars that was ordered then pay the full amount when a working Jupiter is demonstrated.  This is nearly what what was promised from the start minus Mars hardware delivered.  (I'm looking at the risk to buyers perspective.)

3) The whole "lottery" thing of forcing people to pay full amount up front BEFORE the demo day is ...umm... BAD to out it politely.

KnC's only plus is that the FPGA hardware does indeed look real.  I'm am looking forward to the reports from the open house visitors.

Before KnC gets any of my money (BTC or fiat), they need to restore some of their reputation by making it more clear how they will deliver working 28nm ASICs by September.

Good point. Truly agreed

[KS]

And this is the official link to the EU's website with the limits for each country: http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/resources/documents/taxation/vat/traders/vat_community/vat_in_ec_annexi.pdf

[nosurrender]

...
But in my last post, a meant that a private person is not able to buy something from a seller who is advertising someting for business use only. (in germany)

Yes you can.

You have to present yourself at the customs in Sweden and ask for a refund, then import the hardware in Germany. You might have to prove export from Sweden, so it's best to still ship it with DHL/FEDEX/UPS, signed for at destination.

No, you can not. As a consumer (private person) you can not buy goods from a B2B only company.

If you buy goods for private use anywhere in the EU you have to pay the local VAT, but you don´t have to declare it to customs and you don´t have to pay import taxes.

If you buy goods for commercial use in the EU you can present your VAT-Tax-No. to the seller and the invoice will be without VAT. If you pay VAT anyway (because you don´t know your VAT-Tax-No or the seller doesn´t sells without VAT to spare himself administrative work) you can get your VAT back along with your next VAT-declaration.

[nosurrender]

I don't know WTF the are doing with VAT, but UNLESS the have a VAT number in each and every country they charge a different rate for, they have to charge the Swedish VAT and declare it in Sweden. They OBVIOUSLY need to state their VAT number for the country they charge the VAT for. They can't charge 19% for Germany and have their Swedish VAT ID on the invoice.

If they don't follow protocol, they risk ending up in a world of hurt.

As far as I notices during their ordering process, they ask for your VAT-Tax-No. and if you have one, the invoice is issued without VAT. If not, they tax swedish VAT.

Everything seemed to be accurate.

[KS]

I don't know WTF the are doing with VAT, but UNLESS the have a VAT number in each and every country they charge a different rate for, they have to charge the Swedish VAT and declare it in Sweden. They OBVIOUSLY need to state their VAT number for the country they charge the VAT for. They can't charge 19% for Germany and have their Swedish VAT ID on the invoice.

If they don't follow protocol, they risk ending up in a world of hurt.

As far as I notices during their ordering process, they ask for your VAT-Tax-No. and if you have one, the invoice is issued without VAT. If not, they tax swedish VAT.

Everything seemed to be accurate.

But you cannot legally do a local pickup with a 0% VAT invoice. You need to prove export to customs.

[KS]

If you pay VAT anyway (because you don´t know your VAT-Tax-No or the seller doesn´t sells without VAT to spare himself administrative work) you can get your VAT back along with your next VAT-declaration.

Only if you are a Swedish company. Otherwise: more paperwork or get it through customs (well...paperwork too).

[HeRetiK]

Talking of VAT, is there any information on KncMiners VAT number? Maybe in the receipt upon paying for a preorder or a public swedish trade directory? I vaguely remember someone posting a link to their swedish company registration in the original thread, can't find it now though...

[DoomDumas]

Diff already going to the roof : next diff in less than 24h = 15449069 (+27.1%)

Anyone know if it's Avalon batch 2, BFL mining with our asic, asic-miner ?
Any estimate or tought on it, I've take a look in the forum but did'nt find any serious estimation/tought !

Thanks

[idee2013]

I don't know WTF the are doing with VAT, but UNLESS the have a VAT number in each and every country they charge a different rate for, they have to charge the Swedish VAT and declare it in Sweden. They OBVIOUSLY need to state their VAT number for the country they charge the VAT for. They can't charge 19% for Germany and have their Swedish VAT ID on the invoice.

If they don't follow protocol, they risk ending up in a world of hurt.

As far as I notices during their ordering process, they ask for your VAT-Tax-No. and if you have one, the invoice is issued without VAT. If not, they tax swedish VAT.

Everything seemed to be accurate.

No, this is not right. This is only right if they want to stay under these thresholds posted much times. But if they sell only 19 jupiters to germany for example
they are not allowed to use swedish vat.
http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/resources/documents/taxation/vat/traders/vat_community/vat_in_ec_annexi.pdf

[Bitcoinorama]

Talking of VAT, is there any information on KncMiners VAT number? Maybe in the receipt upon paying for a preorder or a public swedish trade directory? I vaguely remember someone posting a link to their swedish company registration in the original thread, can't find it now though...

Should be on their site by now. I saw one of the two yesterday when I was pissing about with ordering...

EDIT: Co. number is on the bottom of every page (standard per rules I think). VAT haven't time to dig out, heading to the gym! Buuuut, I imagine it's on every invoice of those that have made an order! (as it has to be!!)

[ujka]

Diff already going to the roof : next diff in less than 24h = 15449069 (+27.1%)

Anyone know if it's Avalon batch 2, BFL mining with our asic, asic-miner ?
Any estimate or tought on it, I've take a look in the forum but did'nt find any serious estimation/tought !

Thanks

Asicminer is adding another 10T blades (http://www.asicminercharts.com/),
and yesterday I noticed 5 relayed blocks from an unknown IP address in Hongkong (Avalon?)

[ujka]

It's been posted on KnCMiner thread... refreshing...
It's for UK, but anyway.
Interesting, that last line...
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/managing/international/exports/goods.htm:

You can only zero-rate these supplies when all these conditions are met:

• the goods are sent out of the UK to somewhere in another EU country
• whoever you're sending them to is genuinely registered for VAT in another EU country
• you get their VAT registration number - including the two letter country code - and show it on your sales invoice
• you've got paperwork showing that the goods have gone out of the UK - 'evidence of removal'
• you dispatch the goods and get evidence of removal within a set time - which is normally three months

[nosurrender]

I don't know WTF the are doing with VAT, but UNLESS the have a VAT number in each and every country they charge a different rate for, they have to charge the Swedish VAT and declare it in Sweden. They OBVIOUSLY need to state their VAT number for the country they charge the VAT for. They can't charge 19% for Germany and have their Swedish VAT ID on the invoice.

If they don't follow protocol, they risk ending up in a world of hurt.

As far as I notices during their ordering process, they ask for your VAT-Tax-No. and if you have one, the invoice is issued without VAT. If not, they tax swedish VAT.

Everything seemed to be accurate.

No, this is not right. This is only right if they want to stay under these thresholds posted much times. But if they sell only 19 jupiters to germany for example
they are not allowed to use swedish vat.
http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/resources/documents/taxation/vat/traders/vat_community/vat_in_ec_annexi.pdf

These thresholds only apply to distant selling (shipment directly to consumers), not for pickup in Sweden. And they don´t apply, if the buyer is a VAT-registered company. If the buyer has a VAT-Tax-No. the invoice will be free of VAT. In this case, the seller has to check the VAT-No. and needs proof of identity. We often buy large quantities of goods form other companies within the EU (single orders beyond the German threshold of 100.000 EUR) and never pay VAT. But we have to declare these buys monthly to the German tax-authority.

[idee2013]

I don't know WTF the are doing with VAT, but UNLESS the have a VAT number in each and every country they charge a different rate for, they have to charge the Swedish VAT and declare it in Sweden. They OBVIOUSLY need to state their VAT number for the country they charge the VAT for. They can't charge 19% for Germany and have their Swedish VAT ID on the invoice.

If they don't follow protocol, they risk ending up in a world of hurt.

As far as I notices during their ordering process, they ask for your VAT-Tax-No. and if you have one, the invoice is issued without VAT. If not, they tax swedish VAT.

Everything seemed to be accurate.

No, this is not right. This is only right if they want to stay under these thresholds posted much times. But if they sell only 19 jupiters to germany for example
they are not allowed to use swedish vat.
http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/resources/documents/taxation/vat/traders/vat_community/vat_in_ec_annexi.pdf

These thresholds only apply to distant selling (shipment directly to consumers), not for pickup in Sweden. And they don´t apply, if the buyer is a VAT-registered company. If the buyer has a VAT-Tax-No. the invoice will be free of VAT. In this case, the seller has to check the VAT-No. and needs proof of identity. We often buy large quantities of goods form other companies within the EU (single orders beyond the German threshold of 100.000 EUR) and never pay VAT. But we have to declare these buys monthly to the German tax-authority.

But i have ordered it without pickup in sweden. I have chosen the ups delivery...so this is a distance sell!