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Author Topic: Project Meshnet: Hardware for cjdns to enable new, censorship free Internet  (Read 11357 times)
BTCLuke
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May 27, 2013, 08:50:26 PM
 #21

My understanding is that "into space" at that price means "in space for a few days before it burns up in the atmosphere."
Then raise the price a bit... Surely such a cause would find funding as the govs keep passing crap like CISPA on a near daily basis...

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May 27, 2013, 08:57:13 PM
 #22

My understanding is that "into space" at that price means "in space for a few days before it burns up in the atmosphere."
Then raise the price a bit... Surely such a cause would find funding as the govs keep passing crap like CISPA on a near daily basis...

http://www.quora.com/Whats-the-cheapest-launch-price-for-a-small-geosynchronous-satellite

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Typical launch price for launching a satellite into GEO is ~ $10-12K per pound. A typical GEO satellite weighs around 4000 pounds and thus it costs ~ $40-50M to launch. The cost of the satellite itself is probably in the $50-100M range. Some relevant references are provided in the links below.

Geosynchronous orbit is a long way out.  It means you need a large satellite to generate enough power to transmit that distance, which means the cost of launch increases geometrically.

For example, here's a "small" one.  It's as tall as a person.


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May 29, 2013, 06:01:17 AM
 #23

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In June 2010, Iridium signed the largest commercial rocket launch deal ever, a US$492 million contract with SpaceX to launch tens of Iridium NEXT satellites on multiple Falcon 9 launchers in 2015-2017 from Vandenberg AFB Space Launch Complex 3.[14] The 66 operational satellites in the constellation, plus six on-orbit spares, will be launched in seven Falcon 9 launches of 10 satellites each, plus a single launch of the an ISC Kosmotras Dnepr rocket, beginning in 2015 and completing the refresh of the entire constellation by 2017, as of August 2012.[11] The Dnepr can carry two of the 800 kilograms (1,800 lb) Iridium NEXT satellites on a single launch.[15]

Here's another example.  Each satellite weights 1,800 lbs and costs $6.8 million to launch.  Those are the specs for volume costs of state-of-the-art equipment on one of the cheapest launch platforms available.  Millions of dollars.

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May 29, 2013, 06:33:59 AM
 #24

So somewhere between 1 lbs and 1800, we should be able to find a market point... At least when the need becomes strong enough, right?

Luke Parker
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May 29, 2013, 07:30:29 AM
 #25

Meshnet is still cheaper and less risky.  Technically, we might not even have to build anything.  Just connect consumers who want a censorship-resistant internet with providers who want to support it.  And give them a way to pay for it.

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May 29, 2013, 08:44:42 AM
 #26

Meshnet is still cheaper and less risky.  Technically, we might not even have to build anything.  Just connect consumers who want a censorship-resistant internet with providers who want to support it.  And give them a way to pay for it.
Um, I'm talking about meshnet...

My mention of satellites was to solve the problem of how to mesh the world... So different continents and cities more than 100km away can share information.

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May 29, 2013, 11:48:40 AM
 #27

I have heard of tiny modular satellites that are able to hook up with each other to make different configurations in space... this is a possibility, MIT and other universities have already done the work for us, now we just have to build them with off the shelf components and launch them.

I got my hands full, so I'm just going to be working on a open source optical communication device, later someone can figure out how to launch it in space with the required power output.

http://video.mit.edu/watch/cubesats-tiny-satellites-work-at-mit-u-mich-11569/

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September 07, 2013, 04:48:09 PM
 #28

http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/09/07/003204/mits-inflatable-antennae-could-boost-small-satellite-communications

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The MIT researcher noted that large, far-ranging radio dishes are impossible to store in a CubeSat's tight quarters. Instead, the satellites are equipped with smaller, less powerful antennae, restricting them to orbits below those of most geosynchronous satellites.

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September 07, 2013, 06:29:07 PM
 #29

Anyone need some Hope about our mesh-netted future?

There are already over 100 meshnets going in as many cities around the world!

Two in particular, in Athens and Spain, have a combined 50,000 users right now, all enjoying free internet!

Two awesome articles about them, although their numbers are a bit out of date:

http://www.dailydot.com/politics/greek-off-the-grid-internet-mesh

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/08/mesh-internet-privacy-nsa-isp


But the mother load of mesh network listings is on wikiP:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wireless_community_networks_by_region

Very encouraging. I bet the ISPs are already sh!tting their bricks.


These are pretty sweet for local locations: http://www.open-mesh.com  -But of course only have the range of standard Wi-fi repeaters.

Enjoy!


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September 07, 2013, 07:03:23 PM
 #30

Anyone need some Hope about our mesh-netted future?

There are already over 100 meshnets going in as many cities around the world!

Two in particular, in Athens and Spain, have a combined 50,000 users right now, all enjoying free internet!

Two awesome articles about them, although their numbers are a bit out of date:

http://www.dailydot.com/politics/greek-off-the-grid-internet-mesh

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/08/mesh-internet-privacy-nsa-isp


But the mother load of mesh network listings is on wikiP:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wireless_community_networks_by_region

Very encouraging. I bet the ISPs are already sh!tting their bricks.


These are pretty sweet for local locations: http://www.open-mesh.com  -But of course only have the range of standard Wi-fi repeaters.

Enjoy!



I have a large number of 802.11g open-mesh.com units I can sell at $25 each if anyone is interested.

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September 07, 2013, 09:44:43 PM
 #31

I have a large number of 802.11g open-mesh.com units I can sell at $25 each if anyone is interested.

Really? Very interesting. Can you tell us about their actual range, and your experience deploying them? Any other problems with them? (Such as why you aren't using them anymore.)

Thanks!

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September 07, 2013, 11:46:09 PM
 #32

I have a large number of 802.11g open-mesh.com units I can sell at $25 each if anyone is interested.

Really? Very interesting. Can you tell us about their actual range, and your experience deploying them? Any other problems with them? (Such as why you aren't using them anymore.)

Thanks!


When I deployed them the software worked but was not so good.  I also was paying $20 a month for a credit card gateway.  I was actually making a profit with them for a bit but the maintenance was a pain, mostly needing to re-boot units and help users.  Now the software works much better and a gateway is free, but I do not have the time to market/install them in houses like I did before. 

The range is about half a city block when placed OUTSIDE (in protective gear) and one or two city houses when inside by a window.  So if you got three users per city block  with outdoor you would have a GOOD network. 

Now they have 802.11n units for $60+ or so, I am sure those units do better. 

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September 08, 2013, 12:25:30 PM
 #33

These Flutter gizmos sound interesting:

http://qz.com/120270/a-new-alternative-to-wi-fi-has-a-range-of-nearly-a-mile-and-wont-drain-your-battery/

http://www.flutterwireless.com/

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September 08, 2013, 12:50:52 PM
 #34



1.2 Mbps* max data rate, 1km max range

Any guess how fast it would be at the typical distance of several hundred meters? My guess it it deteriorates quickly and is prone to interference in a mesh network.

No that's not good enough.

For a serious wifi alternative look at http://ronja.twibright.com/

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September 08, 2013, 01:39:56 PM
 #35

I don't really think meshnets are achievable as the anarchists would like them. This is because you really need public and especially government support to pull something like this off. These projects are publicly against any form of government and sees the government as the enemy which isn't helpful. I see this as being quite dark (notice the word darknet) and negative. Usually the aims are ridiculous and unachievable such as joining routers together with your neighbor who just isn't interested in such things (!), creating networks with helicopters, secret jet-packs or lasers!

If a big project like this is to be successful it has to have something for everyone in society that they can contribute to and feel like it has their best interests at heart. I think we probably have to work together on this however difficult.
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September 08, 2013, 02:18:23 PM
 #36

I don't really think meshnets are achievable as the anarchists would like them. This is because you really need public and especially government support to pull something like this off. These projects are publicly against any form of government and sees the government as the enemy which isn't helpful. I see this as being quite dark (notice the word darknet) and negative. Usually the aims are ridiculous and unachievable such as joining routers together with your neighbor who just isn't interested in such things (!), creating networks with helicopters, secret jet-packs or lasers!

If a big project like this is to be successful it has to have something for everyone in society that they can contribute to and feel like it has their best interests at heart. I think we probably have to work together on this however difficult.

A meshnet is hard to do but possible with a full time supporter,a little bit of community money and enthusiastic support from a few users in tall buildings.  Using the latest technology and a network with a separate frequency band (or optical stuff) for a backbone it can be done.  As a casual project it would probably fail. 



1.2 Mbps* max data rate, 1km max range

Any guess how fast it would be at the typical distance of several hundred meters? My guess it it deteriorates quickly and is prone to interference in a mesh network.

No that's not good enough.

For a serious wifi alternative look at http://ronja.twibright.com/

Yes, the max data rate makes this not a useable project for a public mesh.  A few users and you are at modem like speeds. 

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September 08, 2013, 02:27:56 PM
 #37

The wireless nature of mesh networks surely makes them useless from a censorship perspective. All the enemy has to do is disrupt your signal or take down a few nodes. At least with the internet you have the added advantage of societies dependence on the network for business, which means you just can't filter out what you like from what you don't.
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September 08, 2013, 02:37:53 PM
 #38

The wireless nature of mesh networks surely makes them useless from a censorship perspective. All the enemy has to do is disrupt your signal or take down a few nodes. At least with the internet you have the added advantage of societies dependence on the network for business, which means you just can't filter out what you like from what you don't.

From what I understand the point of a mesh network is the decentralization - if you have many users, taking down a few nodes won't help because you can just route around it - you would have to take down a significant percentage of nodes to disrupt the network. In terms of disrupting your signal, my knowledge isn't good enough to tell you how feasible that would be.
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September 08, 2013, 02:51:24 PM
 #39

The wireless nature of mesh networks surely makes them useless from a censorship perspective. All the enemy has to do is disrupt your signal or take down a few nodes. At least with the internet you have the added advantage of societies dependence on the network for business, which means you just can't filter out what you like from what you don't.

From what I understand the point of a mesh network is the decentralization - if you have many users, taking down a few nodes won't help because you can just route around it - you would have to take down a significant percentage of nodes to disrupt the network. In terms of disrupting your signal, my knowledge isn't good enough to tell you how feasible that would be.

Very easy to disrupt wireless, but not too hard to figure out who is doing it with the right tools.  Optical is much harder to disrupt on a LOCAL house to house level of course. 

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September 08, 2013, 05:03:50 PM
 #40

From what I understand the point of a mesh network is the decentralization - if you have many users, taking down a few nodes won't help because you can just route around it - you would have to take down a significant percentage of nodes to disrupt the network. In terms of disrupting your signal, my knowledge isn't good enough to tell you how feasible that would be.

But in a local area such as a small town how many nodes are there going to be? Surely with only one or two possible routes it would be easy to take down. Very few in one small area are likely to be activists.
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