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Author Topic: BTCrow.com - Bitcoin Escrow Service - For safer bitcoin transactions  (Read 21203 times)
Alex Beckenham
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July 05, 2011, 03:52:13 AM
 #41

Just fully completed my first escrow through this site and it was a really good experience.

One pleasant surprise was that part of the fee you pay is used as a transaction fee when releasing the funds, so it's QUICK!

Thank you for a great site.

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BTCrow
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July 05, 2011, 04:55:23 PM
 #42

Just fully completed my first escrow through this site and it was a really good experience.

One pleasant surprise was that part of the fee you pay is used as a transaction fee when releasing the funds, so it's QUICK!

Thank you for a great site.


Thanks for using my escrow, if you have anything you want let me know.

Also yes the transaction fee for outgoing is optional but I enabled it in order for transaction being processed asap as recommended into another thread.


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July 05, 2011, 05:51:33 PM
 #43

A rating system will be fine to implement.

Specially for some other trading systems require a proof of trust and to generate a trust system in the escrow.

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July 05, 2011, 10:02:00 PM
 #44

A rating system will be fine to implement.

Specially for some other trading systems require a proof of trust and to generate a trust system in the escrow.



The major problem with a rating system is when people will start using it without my escrow.

For example: if I see someone with 100% positive feedback with 90 transactions why I will pay fee to an escrow for very few risk of being scammed ?

I checked several possibilities but implementing the rating system while customers using my escrow seems not possible.

If you have ideas on howto make it possible you're welcome.

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July 12, 2011, 11:51:56 AM
 #45

Hi, All just a quick hello to say that the escrow is still running. I wasn't too much present on the forum because of other project involving bitcoins Smiley. Btw we are working on merchant tool in order to help merchant getting escrowed payment.

The Reshipping service will also be completed soon and the resolution center will be updated. A lot of work for BTCrow coming.

Let me know if you need anything.

Thanks.

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July 15, 2011, 02:24:30 PM
 #46

Hi,

I'm looking for an escrow service, and it seems you're the only one on the market.

For you website, you should know that most people who goes to an escrow website will already know what an escrow is. (nobody will 'stumbles' there!)

In contrast, what Everyone wants to know is
1. Fee
2. Procedure if buyer file a complaint
3. How do you solve resolution

You made 1. quite  hard to find, and you didn't give any info on 2,3.

So, please answer it here.
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July 15, 2011, 04:02:37 PM
 #47

Hi,

I'm looking for an escrow service, and it seems you're the only one on the market.

For you website, you should know that most people who goes to an escrow website will already know what an escrow is. (nobody will 'stumbles' there!)

In contrast, what Everyone wants to know is
1. Fee
2. Procedure if buyer file a complaint
3. How do you solve resolution

You made 1. quite  hard to fine, and you didn't give any info on 2,3.

So, please answer it here.

Hi DonnyCMU, First thanks for trying to improve my escrow service with your suggestions.

For the first point I just realize that it can be hard to find if you do not browse the entire site. So I put it in the footer as everyone could have a quick look to the fees if they don,t want to read everything.

For the second point the procedure is described in detail in the "how BTCrow.com works" point 4. I'm pasting it here :

What happens if the Buyer rejects the merchandise?

Step 4: Buyer Rejects the Merchandise
When the Buyer clicks on the dispute button the Buyer confirm that he didn't accept the merchandise, Buyer must inform the Seller that the Buyer has rejected the merchandise.
The Buyer has 7 days to ship the merchandise to the Seller's after they reject the merchandise or he automatically loose the dispute and bitcoins goes to the Seller address listed at BTCrow.com. The Buyer is responsible for paying the return shipping/insurance costs.
After the Buyer has shipped the merchandise, they must sign in to BTCrow.com and enter the shipping company and tracking information into the resolution center. Buyer must inform the Seller indicating that the merchandise has been shipped.
Upon delivery of the shipment, the Seller must accept or reject the returned merchandise within 5 days or he will loose the dispute and bitcoins, minus escrow fee, goes to the Buyer's address listed at BTCrow.com.

The Seller Accepts the Returned Merchandise
If the Seller accept the merchandise, or fails to accept or reject during the 5 days upon delivery, the Seller will have accepted the returned merchandise and bitcoins, minus escrow fee, goes to the Buyer's address listed at BTCrow.com.

The Seller Rejects the Returned Merchandise
If the Seller rejects the merchandise, the Seller must inform the Buyer via the Resolution Center indicating the decision to reject the returned merchandise. The transaction will be considered to be in mediation by BTCrow.com.
BTCrow.com will hold the funds in escrow until the dispute is resolved. BTCrow.com does not assist in dispute resolution. The Buyer and Seller are to come to a mutual agreement of terms within 30 days or start the arbitration process within 60 days.


For your third question, there's no procedure written in the site for the only reason that I don't wanna see people start to abuse it. I'm in a "long" process of writing them and make sure there's no flaw that malicious people could use.

For a quick answer to your question, Our resolution center service (also called BTCrow arbitration process) will only rely on proof and on nothing else. In those words we won't buy words from any of both party except if they have concrete proof(s) of what they say is true.

Hope this fit to your need and if you have other question feel free to post it there, will be a pleasure to answer them.
Thanks

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July 18, 2011, 02:22:57 PM
 #48

We received an interesting email yesterday asking for ssl certificate on our escrow service.

We just bought one. here's the link https://btcrow.com

We also really appreciate suggestions and comments like that. So if you have one or have questions, feel free to contact us by email or in this thread.

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July 20, 2011, 07:32:05 PM
 #49

Hey BTCrow,

I only had enough time to skim this thread so for that I apologize.

Can you tell me how disputes will be handled for Western Union and PayPal payments. Like PayPal chargeback or a buyer claiming the Western Union was never picked up? What about other intangible items?

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July 20, 2011, 08:23:50 PM
 #50

BTCrow,

how would you handle a "bet" btwn 2 parties with a holding period of one year?
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July 21, 2011, 12:35:32 PM
 #51

Hey BTCrow,

I only had enough time to skim this thread so for that I apologize.

Can you tell me how disputes will be handled for Western Union and PayPal payments. Like PayPal chargeback or a buyer claiming the Western Union was never picked up? What about other intangible items?

Hi virtualfaqs, I'm glad you ask this question cause there's probably a lot of people out there who wanna know how to protect from good known "chargeback paypal fraud". With our escrow service it is very easy to evade this.

I refer to the article 12.2 b of Paypal here: https://cms.paypal.com/ca/cgi-bin/?&cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/UserAgreement_full#12. Resolution Procedures for Unauthorized Transactions and Processing Errors.

To be eligible for 100% protection for errors in your Account, you must notify us within 60 Days after any unauthorized transaction or processing error first appears in your Account history statement.


By knowing so, seller who use paypal cannot scam a buyer if this buyer wait 60 daysbefore releasing the funds. So with this the buyer cannot be scammed by the seller doing chargeback on his transaction. The seller have the same protection with us because if after 60 days the buyer didn't release the funds he can fill a dispute at our resolution center. Then show the proof that he really sent the money from paypal to the user in order the provide evidence.

Using this method the best way for us to know what's happen will be filling the "Product Description" field with "paypal to BTC (xxx.xx$ to xx.xxBTC)" while creating a new escrow.

In rare case paypal can still do chargeback after 60 days in exceptional condition: ex: people at hospital etc etc. But this is very very hard to prove to them and they should detect the scam by not doing the chargeback.

For the moment (solution coming) we do not recommend using Western Union at all. I know a lot of countries can only use Western Union but it's at 80% used for fraud.

We are currently working on a reshipping service and we will include payment reshipping like check and western union money. So stay tuned if you really need Western Union without fear of being scammed we will take care of that soon.


For the second question:
Intangible items are harder to control but not impossible, "nothing's impossible anyway". As I said our escrow only rely on proof, If a seller sell a software or digital product and any of the party open a dispute, the seller will be in need of sending us a digital product proof that we can rely on.

If you have any other questions it will be a pleasure to answer them here.

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July 21, 2011, 12:40:52 PM
 #52

BTCrow,

how would you handle a "bet" btwn 2 parties with a holding period of one year?


Hi cypherdoc, At BTCrow we do not have any maximum period of funds holding, so even for a year we will be able to manage it. Also for long period it should be included into the "Product Description" when creating the escrow.

We are also working with bitcoin merchant as we create merchant tool using our escrow. This will also be able to hold bet and other digital product or currency.

If you have other question we will be more than happy to answer them.

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July 22, 2011, 08:49:27 AM
 #53


Hi virtualfaqs, I'm glad you ask this question cause there's probably a lot of people out there who wanna know how to protect from good known "chargeback paypal fraud". With our escrow service it is very easy to evade this.

I refer to the article 12.2 b of Paypal here: https://cms.paypal.com/ca/cgi-bin/?&cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/UserAgreement_full#12. Resolution Procedures for Unauthorized Transactions and Processing Errors.

To be eligible for 100% protection for errors in your Account, you must notify us within 60 Days after any unauthorized transaction or processing error first appears in your Account history statement.


By knowing so, seller who use paypal cannot scam a buyer if this buyer wait 60 daysbefore releasing the funds. So with this the buyer cannot be scammed by the seller doing chargeback on his transaction. The seller have the same protection with us because if after 60 days the buyer didn't release the funds he can fill a dispute at our resolution center. Then show the proof that he really sent the money from paypal to the user in order the provide evidence.

Using this method the best way for us to know what's happen will be filling the "Product Description" field with "paypal to BTC (xxx.xx$ to xx.xxBTC)" while creating a new escrow.

In rare case paypal can still do chargeback after 60 days in exceptional condition: ex: people at hospital etc etc. But this is very very hard to prove to them and they should detect the scam by not doing the chargeback.


No buyer in their right mind is going to use PayPal to pay if the seller is going to hold the BTC for 60 days first. In other words you don't offer any protection which is fine. Also some credit card chargebacks have a bigger window than 60 days.

For the moment (solution coming) we do not recommend using Western Union at all. I know a lot of countries can only use Western Union but it's at 80% used for fraud.

We are currently working on a reshipping service and we will include payment reshipping like check and western union money. So stay tuned if you really need Western Union without fear of being scammed we will take care of that soon.


Uh... what? The Western Union is for bitcoins right? I'm not talking about those Nigerian scams.

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July 22, 2011, 02:33:12 PM
 #54

No buyer in their right mind is going to use PayPal to pay if the seller is going to hold the BTC for 60 days first. In other words you don't offer any protection which is fine. Also some credit card chargebacks have a bigger window than 60 days.

Buyer always initiate the transaction so he always send bitcoin not the inverse. Of course 60 days take time for the seller which sent paypal payment and waiting for BTC. This is the only possible protection. We are Bitcoin Escrow not Paypal payment escrow or credit card escrow. Also you asked for Paypal and Western Union not chargeback for credit card. We also never said that we recomment using Paypal or easily reversible payment method in order to trade BTC. This way you better buy from an exchange which will do the transaction without problem, no need to use an escrow here, except if the seller offer a great deal to buy BTC.

Quote
In other words you don't offer any protection which is fine.
This 60 days protection can not be fine for you, might other people may happy with it ?

Quote from: virtualfaqs
Uh... what? The Western Union is for bitcoins right? I'm not talking about those Nigerian scams.

I'm completely aware that using Western Union for trading bitcoin is probably the worst way to trade bitcoins. Exchange accept check in mail so it's better use it this way than using an escrow.

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July 25, 2011, 10:06:45 PM
 #55

No buyer in their right mind is going to use PayPal to pay if the seller is going to hold the BTC for 60 days first. In other words you don't offer any protection which is fine. Also some credit card chargebacks have a bigger window than 60 days.

Buyer always initiate the transaction so he always send bitcoin not the inverse. Of course 60 days take time for the seller which sent paypal payment and waiting for BTC. This is the only possible protection. We are Bitcoin Escrow not Paypal payment escrow or credit card escrow. Also you asked for Paypal and Western Union not chargeback for credit card. We also never said that we recomment using Paypal or easily reversible payment method in order to trade BTC. This way you better buy from an exchange which will do the transaction without problem, no need to use an escrow here, except if the seller offer a great deal to buy BTC.

Let's define the buyer and seller terms since it's getting confusing. Buyer is person paying in BTC. Seller is person selling other currency, tangible, intangible good.

The majority of PayPal payments are from credit card which is what I was getting at. Also exchanges don't take PayPal. That's ok I think we're on the same page here. It's pretty much just beware of accepting PayPal which is fine.

Quote from: BTCrow
Quote
In other words you don't offer any protection which is fine.
This 60 days protection can not be fine for you, might other people may happy with it ?

The 60 days protection is up to the traders right? If the buyer agree to do away with it, then that is allowed?

Quote from: BTCrow
Quote from: virtualfaqs
Uh... what? The Western Union is for bitcoins right? I'm not talking about those Nigerian scams.

I'm completely aware that using Western Union for trading bitcoin is probably the worst way to trade bitcoins. Exchange accept check in mail so it's better use it this way than using an escrow.

Are we on the same page here? Western Union is one of the best ways to do this since you are doing escrow. The buyer sends the BTC to BTCrow. Seller sends WU to buyer. Buyer picks up WU and BTC is released to the seller.

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July 26, 2011, 02:20:24 PM
 #56

Quote from: virtualfaqs
The 60 days protection is up to the traders right? If the buyer agree to do away with it, then that is allowed?

Yes exactly if both buyer and seller accept those terms than this is allowed, we do not have minimum or maximum BTC holding period so it's up to both party to fix the terms first.

Quote from: virtualfaqs
Are we on the same page here? Western Union is one of the best ways to do this since you are doing escrow. The buyer sends the BTC to BTCrow. Seller sends WU to buyer. Buyer picks up WU and BTC is released to the seller.

Problem with WU is it is ok if everything goes well, like you said if the buyer (the one who hold bitcoins in the escrow) is honest. Cause if he's not, he could just say he didn't receive money. Is the seller could proof that he really made the payment ?

I don't see any possibilities, if you have one you're welcome Smiley. That's why a reshipping service can be useful for those transactions.

buyer pay escrow, seller send WU to escrow, escrow verify that everything is ok, then escrow send WU to buyer, buyer receive the funds and release the bitcoins.

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July 26, 2011, 10:30:43 PM
 #57


Problem with WU is it is ok if everything goes well, like you said if the buyer (the one who hold bitcoins in the escrow) is honest. Cause if he's not, he could just say he didn't receive money. Is the seller could proof that he really made the payment ?

I don't see any possibilities, if you have one you're welcome Smiley. That's why a reshipping service can be useful for those transactions.

buyer pay escrow, seller send WU to escrow, escrow verify that everything is ok, then escrow send WU to buyer, buyer receive the funds and release the bitcoins.

There are some decent ways to check online that are 95% proof a WU was picked up. However if the buyer still disputes, the seller could mail you the original receipt to prove the Western Union was picked up by someone with the buyer's name.  I really doubt a scammer would bother going so far as to claim the name is correct, but didn't pick it up. You already have the scammer's BTC so it really isn't worth their time to go through such a hassle as there are easier scams. I've been advising for hundreds of virtual transactions going through escrow with the exact same scenario and there wasn't ever a single problem over Western Union pickup. By the last statement, I don't mean that WU couldn't be used for scamming, but it was pretty easy to figure out who was lying.

I wouldn't bother doing escrow for WU because there's extra fees involved and what I listed above is enough to stop 99.99% of all questionable situations. However you could add an additional service that you'd change the WU payment to PayPal for the buyer. That's something I thought about for a long time.

The reason why I brought up WU is because I want to know I can count on your escrow to make the right decision if someone claims they didn't pick up a Western Union payment. Most likely if you list the above procedure, there should never be a problem.

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July 26, 2011, 11:24:26 PM
 #58

Quote from: virtualfaqs
There are some decent ways to check online that are 95% proof a WU was picked up. However if the buyer still disputes, the seller could mail you the original receipt to prove the Western Union was picked up by someone with the buyer's name.  I really doubt a scammer would bother going so far as to claim the name is correct, but didn't pick it up. You already have the scammer's BTC so it really isn't worth their time to go through such a hassle as there are easier scams. I've been advising for hundreds of virtual transactions going through escrow with the exact same scenario and there wasn't ever a single problem over Western Union pickup. By the last statement, I don't mean that WU couldn't be used for scamming, but it was pretty easy to figure out who was lying.

Thanks for the tip, I now agree with you probably one of the safest method to transfer bitcoins to cash.

Quote from: virtualfaqs
I wouldn't bother doing escrow for WU because there's extra fees involved and what I listed above is enough to stop 99.99% of all questionable situations. However you could add an additional service that you'd change the WU payment to PayPal for the buyer. That's something I thought about for a long time.

This is a nice idea, did you talk doing the exchange with my current escrow or with another service. Cause if you talk doing it with my escrow I could be interested doing business with you.

Quote from: virtualfaqs
The reason why I brought up WU is because I want to know I can count on your escrow to make the right decision if someone claims they didn't pick up a Western Union payment. Most likely if you list the above procedure, there should never be a problem.

Of course, the reason I wanted to build an escrow with resolution center is to try to completely keep scammers or frauder away of using it. So that bitcoins users should know if a seller don't want to use BTCrow it should put up the redflag.


BTW thanks for this reply was a good talk. Also let me know if your idea of escrow exchanger is to apply to my current escrow service.

Thanks
Jules

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August 08, 2011, 01:29:03 PM
 #59

To all our customers, this could interest some of you:

20% lifetime discount here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=35627.0

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August 08, 2011, 03:27:23 PM
 #60

When pressing "Create Escrow" the dialog box stays open and the content doubles (another password, another link). Looks like a bug.
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