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Author Topic: Ripple is excellent, but short-sighted.  (Read 10211 times)
TradeFortress
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May 26, 2013, 08:47:12 AM
 #21

You have no argument other than: Ponzi has something to do with stamps, and some people say Ripple is like stamps. Gimme a break, what is this, grade 10?

They are giving the XRP away in order to grow the infrastructure of a distributed currency exchange. suck in users while giving billions of XRPs to their friends (check the graph)
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May 26, 2013, 08:53:12 AM
 #22

Instead of trusting FEDs, there are people who somehow figure it's a better idea to trust a private corporation which is ten times more shady and arbitrary than FED with the currency they created ....wow. Roll Eyes


Had Bitcoin been like XRP, I would have sticked with whatever fiats I use.

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May 26, 2013, 09:27:21 AM
 #23

yet again more useless threads showing a lack of understandin of what ripple is all about.

best analogy i have found to describe it
ripple is like the postal service sending transactions (cheques/checks) in the mail to each other where everyone knows a cheque is not the actual money, but just a IOU/request for bank(exchange) to authorise payment you person named on the cheque on behalf of person B and XRP is simply the postage stamped envelope used to send the transaction.

yet everyone just see's XRP as an alt coin. avoiding the actual purpose of ripple

EG

convert bitcoin for FIAT where it costs a smal decimal of a single XRP. meaning that if you have 500xrp you can do many many transactions before needing to buy more XRP(stamps).

only the mega exchanges need hoards of XRP to do many dolar to euro, euro to yen, dollar to bitcoin, transactions..  the whole btc to xrp transactions should only be needed as often as someone goes to a post office to buy 500 stamps.. so please please realise the true purpose of ripple and stop complaining about XRP as if was always intended to be an alt.

once people start using ripple for its intended purpose XRP will be worth pennies. but i fear ripple as s payment utility will be ignored and XRP will continue to be traded as purely a altcoin against other coins directly..

which leaves me to face palm alot of community members that still don't even read the descriptions of programs and use them for their desired functions.

It is essentially broken because you have to trust the the party to pay the IOU actually does so.

Trust-based system.

The trick is to get merchant to accept ripple into their system and also to get gateways (i.e. banks and other financial instutitions) to accept them as well ...which are subject to regulation and being shut down essentially taking your XRP/IOUs with it.

This is somewhat true with bitcoin , but you have the ability to hold your own bitcoins. Ripple is centralized.


OpenCoin is very misleading with their name and what they have said about ripple. It is not open sourced nor is it decentralized.

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May 26, 2013, 09:29:12 AM
 #24

OpenCoin holds a fuckton of XRP.

Their justification is: "WEll we need to hire the best programmers blah blah blah"

But what they really are saying is "we need to make sure our VCs get their pay off as well as us". So please use XRP so it goes up in value so we can get rich quick for little effort.

Bullshit. May as well use the Federal Reserve system already.

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May 26, 2013, 09:48:21 AM
 #25

Ripplers whining:" You totally misunderstood us! It's not what Ripple is all about!" Blahblahblah....

What Satoshi did--throwing in the code and the whitepaper:" Show me where it would't work the way I told you, I dare you."

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May 26, 2013, 04:51:35 PM
 #26

It's impossible to have a rational discussion so early. Some of you have hitched your wagons prematurely to the "I simply don't care about Ripple" ideology imho. I guess you don't see the new utilities it's attempting to bring to the payment space as being as much of a big deal as some of us do.

I've said this before, but it's important to keep in mind, the payment space is MASSIVE! Bitcoin is a little speck. Bitcoin, Ripple, and wtvr else we're talking about in these forums that actually possesses forward momentum is the new stuff, and it all supports itself.
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May 27, 2013, 01:00:25 AM
 #27

It's impossible to have a rational discussion so early. Some of you have hitched your wagons prematurely to the "I simply don't care about Ripple" ideology imho. I guess you don't see the new utilities it's attempting to bring to the payment space as being as much of a big deal as some of us do.

I've said this before, but it's important to keep in mind, the payment space is MASSIVE! Bitcoin is a little speck. Bitcoin, Ripple, and wtvr else we're talking about in these forums that actually possesses forward momentum is the new stuff, and it all supports itself.

Had they really focused on working on a payment system(certainly not without major problems), they would not be despised so much, instead they create a currency that makes FED pales in comparison when it comed to scamability, then advertise it as if they only keep enough to reward their self-proclaimed great contributions.

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May 27, 2013, 01:36:09 AM
 #28

Do not forget using VC money to buy up the tiny XRPs they gave away so they would have a bigger market cap.. to attract more VCs.
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May 27, 2013, 02:09:10 AM
 #29

Had they really focused on working on a payment system, they would not be despised so much, instead they create a currency that makes FED pales in comparison when it comed to scamability, then advertise it as if they only keep enough to reward their self-proclaimed great contributions.

The network requires XRP to have a value in order to combat spam. The price of XRP today is 99% speculative, but it's gradually becoming more real. Over time this value will increasingly be set by a new payment processing market.

Ripple can give everyone the ability to transact for free in any currency they want. OpenCoin has nothing in common with the FED. lol

Why Bitcoiners don't embrace it is beyond me. The only reason I can think of is that they assume that undermining Ripple will somehow delay the day Bitcoin is inevitably replaced by something better. It's not a rational assumption. It has everything to do with fear and greed, and nothing to do with Ripple.

Do not forget using VC money to buy up the tiny XRPs they gave away so they would have a bigger market cap.. to attract more VCs.

I'm sure OpenCoin will attract a lot of VCs. What's your point?
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May 27, 2013, 03:47:57 AM
 #30

Had they really focused on working on a payment system, they would not be despised so much, instead they create a currency that makes FED pales in comparison when it comed to scamability, then advertise it as if they only keep enough to reward their self-proclaimed great contributions.

The network requires XRP to have a value in order to combat spam. The price of XRP today is 99% speculative, but it's gradually becoming more real. Over time this value will increasingly be set by a new payment processing market.

Ripple can give everyone the ability to transact for free in any currency they want. OpenCoin has nothing in common with the FED. lol

Why Bitcoiners don't embrace it is beyond me. The only reason I can think of is that they assume that undermining Ripple will somehow delay the day Bitcoin is inevitably replaced by something better. It's not a rational assumption. It has everything to do with fear and greed, and nothing to do with Ripple.

Do not forget using VC money to buy up the tiny XRPs they gave away so they would have a bigger market cap.. to attract more VCs.



I'm sure OpenCoin will attract a lot of VCs. What's your point?

Why you can't wrap your mind around the facts is beyond me, and how Ripplers attribute this to envy is even more laughable.

The fact is that the only reason Bitcoin network doesn't do instant confirmation is the unfairness of distribution and security, had the miners needed not to worry about their blocks getting rejected, because all coins are generated in the genesis block anyway(like what Opencoin is doing), Bitcoin network could just have gone the WDC way by adjusting the block generation time to something like 10 or 20 seconds, and we would have near-instant confirmations without putting up with Ripple's half-assed consensus system, you really think Ripple is superior in anyway?

Fairness is everything, I wil tell you why I don't embrace it, ask any proper investor outside of this community about something like XRP, they will tell you it is suicidal to invest in something which a single entity controls 10 times more than anyone else combined, and count on their good will to make money for you, needless to say there is no way for you to investigate if the currency is being manipulated or not, heck, you don't even know how much XRP is out of Opencoin.

Had Opencoin really honored fairness and felt the need to combat spam, there are much better approaches to take, like a deterministic system which releases XRPs, while keeping the 300 XRPs limit in place(yeah, they get rid of it already), not to say the so-called "spam" problem is something unique to the Ripple, which says much about how good the design actually is.

If you still feel confused, ask yourself, where is Ripple/XRP better than the financial/federal reserve system you are using?

But nevermind, it's not the first time I see a Rippler who just can't swallow rational arguments.

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May 27, 2013, 07:40:50 AM
 #31

not to say the so-called "spam" problem is something unique to the Ripple, which says much about how good the design actually is.

Oh, just to quickly jump in:
Bitcoin has SERIOUS issues with spam transactions and is running currently in a heavily limited mode because of that.

Bitcoin would look much different (imho better + with far more features), if it somehow could be ensured that spam transactions are not mined into the block chain. One of the biggest reasons that this hasn't happened yet, is (aside from being distributed already, so hardforks need mining power) that there is no clear consensus what "spam" exactly is.

Ripple solves this via a combination of Proof of Stake (or maybe Proof of Ownership) and Proof of Destruction.


XRP are used (or probably intended to be used) as an intermediate currency/token/whateveryoucallit. Just like it is easier to give an USD value to several computer parts and compare this instead of calculating how many ASUS ... mainboards I have to trade for 3 Intel core-i5 ... CPUs it is intended to be used for comparisons and facilitating trade. Same goes for using BTC at the moment by the way - as most goods and services can be valued in fiat and this fiat value can be translated into a BTC value, BTC are used as an intermediate, just like USD or EUR or BTN - the main use for money after all.

A Ripple system without an internal currency will need to adopt another currency out of necessity really fast, it could be Litecoins, it could be Bitcoin it can be something else. Without any internal currency, there can only be barter trade of IOUs and that leads to highly inefficient markets.

As there is no real need to actually USE XRP (just as I never had to use Mexican Pesos in my whole life, still I can calculate the value of nearly anything around me in Mexican Pesos!) but it is useful to have it around, so I'm not so much concerned with the whole issues that people see around this.

XXX billions XRP on your account anyways just means that you can dump the price - as long as you don't invest in them by holding and just use them to facilitate trade (meaning you do trade for example PayPalUSD --> XRP --> BTC instead of longer paths) you're not exposed to this at all.

To be clear, I am also heavily against investing in XRP (I just hold the ones I got for free and axchanged a few of them to BTC to get a better feeling for the client and system) and would recommend anyone who buys them to exchange them quickly for wheatever IOU they want to have and redeem that at the time they want to.

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May 27, 2013, 08:50:20 AM
 #32

not to say the so-called "spam" problem is something unique to the Ripple, which says much about how good the design actually is.

Oh, just to quickly jump in:
Bitcoin has SERIOUS issues with spam transactions and is running currently in a heavily limited mode because of that.

Bitcoin would look much different (imho better + with far more features), if it somehow could be ensured that spam transactions are not mined into the block chain. One of the biggest reasons that this hasn't happened yet, is (aside from being distributed already, so hardforks need mining power) that there is no clear consensus what "spam" exactly is.

Ripple solves this via a combination of Proof of Stake (or maybe Proof of Ownership) and Proof of Destruction.


XRP are used (or probably intended to be used) as an intermediate currency/token/whateveryoucallit. Just like it is easier to give an USD value to several computer parts and compare this instead of calculating how many ASUS ... mainboards I have to trade for 3 Intel core-i5 ... CPUs it is intended to be used for comparisons and facilitating trade. Same goes for using BTC at the moment by the way - as most goods and services can be valued in fiat and this fiat value can be translated into a BTC value, BTC are used as an intermediate, just like USD or EUR or BTN - the main use for money after all.

A Ripple system without an internal currency will need to adopt another currency out of necessity really fast, it could be Litecoins, it could be Bitcoin it can be something else. Without any internal currency, there can only be barter trade of IOUs and that leads to highly inefficient markets.

As there is no real need to actually USE XRP (just as I never had to use Mexican Pesos in my whole life, still I can calculate the value of nearly anything around me in Mexican Pesos!) but it is useful to have it around, so I'm not so much concerned with the whole issues that people see around this.

XXX billions XRP on your account anyways just means that you can dump the price - as long as you don't invest in them by holding and just use them to facilitate trade (meaning you do trade for example PayPalUSD --> XRP --> BTC instead of longer paths) you're not exposed to this at all.

To be clear, I am also heavily against investing in XRP (I just hold the ones I got for free and axchanged a few of them to BTC to get a better feeling for the client and system) and would recommend anyone who buys them to exchange them quickly for wheatever IOU they want to have and redeem that at the time they want to.

I don't know what you mean by "spam transactions"? The problem of blockchain being filled up with too many small transactions I guess? I don't see how Ripple can solve it, the ledger can still bloat, at least with its current design.

I agree with a lot of what you said about XRPs, but what I find faults with is the way they release them, which is completely arbitrary and opaque, rather then the fact that they created a currency itself. Even if they were really out of other reasonable solutions, and had to settle with the "printing press" model(which I strongly doubt, at bare minimum they can be as transparent as FEDs and give people complete, provable data about the past/current/future rate and fluctuation of XRPs' flow into the network. All this ultra-secrecy can only lead people to be more and more suspicious that some foul plays are behind the door.

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May 27, 2013, 08:54:28 AM
 #33

Just sain' Satoshi also generated a bunch of Bitcoins for himself.

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May 27, 2013, 09:01:27 AM
 #34

Just sain' Satoshi also generated a bunch of Bitcoins for himself.


Keyword ^


Ripple = type 1 and 0's into variable.

Big difference.

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May 27, 2013, 09:02:46 AM
 #35

Just sain' Satoshi also generated a bunch of Bitcoins for himself.


This is getting old, the difference is Satoshi essentially informed everyone he talked to to mine Bitcoins, and the soruce code was released before the genesis block was even mined, someone took his advice, like Hal Finney, who mined several thousand very early, did Opencoin ever give anyone a chance to take their reserved portion of XRPs which they created out of thin air? Not to say that a Bitcoin network can only be "alive" as long as at least a miner is running, so Satoshi had to be that miner himself, because no one else wanted to do that, while Ripple network, by design, can work perfectly without XRPs.

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May 27, 2013, 09:09:12 AM
 #36

Just sain' Satoshi also generated a bunch of Bitcoins for himself.


Keyword ^


Ripple = type 1 and 0's into variable.

Big difference.

Technically yes, but for practical purposes the cost of generating them stands in no relation to the effort it took to come up with Bitcoin and write the software.
The general consensus is that Satoshi has "earned" to have them not because his mining but because his work.

All you can say that you think opencoin is too greedy for your taste. In that case you are free to fork ripple once it is released.
As for myself I consider the valuation of XRP to work like a stock which pay "dividends" by deflation. Added to this I didn't give anybody any money nor did I pay for my XRP, which I gonna keep till ripple comes out of beta.
Haters gonna hate,

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May 27, 2013, 09:13:51 AM
 #37

Just sain' Satoshi also generated a bunch of Bitcoins for himself.


Keyword ^


Ripple = type 1 and 0's into variable.

Big difference.

Technically yes, but for practical purposes the cost of generating them stands in no relation to the effort it took to come up with Bitcoin and write the software.
The general consensus is that Satoshi has "earned" to have them not because his mining but because his work.

All you can say that you think opencoin is too greedy for your taste. In that case you are free to fork ripple once it is released.
As for myself I consider the valuation of XRP to work like a stock which pay "dividends" by deflation. Added to this I didn't give anybody any money nor did I pay for my XRP, which I gonna keep till ripple comes out of beta.
Haters gonna hate,

You know what, you could have mined all those 1 million bitcoins, and leave not even bread crumbs to Satoshi, this is called "fairness".

And I don't hate XRPs, I just think it's a suckers' investment, you can ask any investor out of this community if they are going to invest in something which a single entity controls 10 times more than everyone else combined, they will call you crazy.

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Sukrim
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May 27, 2013, 09:18:31 AM
 #38

Well, I hold ~50k XRP that I did not create for myself but that I got as an "early adopter" for free which I consider "my portion of XRPs".

Satoshi on the other hand probably mostly mined at a loss or completely voluntarily, as there was for quite some time no way at all to spend BTC anywhere. Just like the famous "10k BTC pizza" which was sold under value at that time by the way.

I already saw some threads about forking Ripple to remove XRP - please just make sure to include some other kind of non-IOU currency in there (which as I said could be Bitcoin/Litecoin/...coin), a Ripple system without an intermediate currency will search for one and if that intermediate currency turns out to be a heavily centralized IOU, there are even more issues than with XRP, which at least are not IOUs.

I agree that the distribution of XRP is one of the main issues I see in Ripple too, on the other hand they are so cheap to begin with that this is a rather philosophical concern. I would be happy if all I would ever need to pay to make millions of transactions in the future on a payment network would only cost me a 1/10th of what I pay for my credit card per year alone.

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ElectricMucus
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May 27, 2013, 09:29:44 AM
 #39

Just sain' Satoshi also generated a bunch of Bitcoins for himself.


Keyword ^


Ripple = type 1 and 0's into variable.

Big difference.

Technically yes, but for practical purposes the cost of generating them stands in no relation to the effort it took to come up with Bitcoin and write the software.
The general consensus is that Satoshi has "earned" to have them not because his mining but because his work.

All you can say that you think opencoin is too greedy for your taste. In that case you are free to fork ripple once it is released.
As for myself I consider the valuation of XRP to work like a stock which pay "dividends" by deflation. Added to this I didn't give anybody any money nor did I pay for my XRP, which I gonna keep till ripple comes out of beta.
Haters gonna hate,

You know what, you could have mined all those 1 million bitcoins, and leave not even bread crumbs to Satoshi, this is called "fairness".

And I don't hate XRPs, I just think it's a suckers' investment, you can ask any investor out of this community if they are going to invest in something which a single entity controls 10 times more than everyone else combined, they will call you crazy.

If I did know about and were subscribed to the cypherpunks mailing list, had the knowledge to implement a miner and the necessary computing resources.

I agree that XRP are risky, it's the same kind of risk as with BTC just amplified, but I think the potential gain is there to compensate. If I am wrong, well it's like missing on somebody giving me 1000 bucks, which is unfortunate but not really dramatic.

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they keep laughing, then they start choking on their laughter, and then they go and catch their breath. Then they start laughing even more.
oakpacific
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May 27, 2013, 09:37:52 AM
 #40

Just sain' Satoshi also generated a bunch of Bitcoins for himself.


Keyword ^


Ripple = type 1 and 0's into variable.

Big difference.

Technically yes, but for practical purposes the cost of generating them stands in no relation to the effort it took to come up with Bitcoin and write the software.
The general consensus is that Satoshi has "earned" to have them not because his mining but because his work.

All you can say that you think opencoin is too greedy for your taste. In that case you are free to fork ripple once it is released.
As for myself I consider the valuation of XRP to work like a stock which pay "dividends" by deflation. Added to this I didn't give anybody any money nor did I pay for my XRP, which I gonna keep till ripple comes out of beta.
Haters gonna hate,

You know what, you could have mined all those 1 million bitcoins, and leave not even bread crumbs to Satoshi, this is called "fairness".

And I don't hate XRPs, I just think it's a suckers' investment, you can ask any investor out of this community if they are going to invest in something which a single entity controls 10 times more than everyone else combined, they will call you crazy.

If I did know about and were subscribed to the cypherpunks mailing list, had the knowledge to implement a miner and the necessary computing resources.

If a train is about to leave, it would be fair enough for the train operator to put the timetable at somewhere publicly visible, they have no duty to pay big bucks to the post office to have the table mailed to everyone's home, in fact, I doubt if they had done that, you would probably still had thrown it into the trashcan, consider it spam-mail.

"Fairness" is about you do as much as you can, with your current resource, to get the access to your currency out to as many people as possible, Opencoin can at the blink of an eye start giving away all of their XRPs(or even better, sell them!), yet they refuse to do that.

https://tlsnotary.org/ Fraud proofing decentralized fiat-Bitcoin trading.
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