[LTC] Litecoin Core Development Fundraising

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

You completely disregarded my valid argument with comparisons that do not even portray the situation correctly, and asked me questions in a way that they will get the answer you're looking for. Anyone can do that on any subject to get a certain response they want.

Like I said, you're obviously a troll and I'm not going to sit here and argue with you all night, I've got things to do.

If you can't see why this is good for the ALT coin community, then you are dumb.

Troll on sir..

Your argument is not valid. Repeating the same things again and again does not make it true. The forum endorsing the "golden child" does not benefit everyone.

ASSUMPTION: Litecoin being more successful will benefit other alt coins.
Not backed by evidence. Looking at historical trade data, LTC being more successful does not benefit other alt coins

Even if we assume that is true, economics is a zero sum game. Let us IMAGINE that what you are saying is true (it is not, you have no evidence and analysis of trade data shows nothing):

LTC: +7
ABC: +2
CBA: +1

Actual:

ABC: -5
CBA: -6

Do you think printing more money is the solution? When you make a profit, it does not come out of nowhere, SOMEONE ELSE JUST MADE A LOSS.

This proves that EVEN if all coins 'benefit' (which you have not supported with evidence), other coins are not really benefiting.

I appreciate how you backed out of discussion by calling me a "troll". It's what children use, it is not what adults use in a discussion

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[CoinHoarder]

I have mining rigs that are down that take priority over sitting here and arguing with you. Also I'd like to play a video game or two before going to sleep for work tomorrow. I have been on these forums since I got off work today for hours. Sorry, you are not special enough for me to waste my time to explain my point to a retard troll like you.

The only evidence needed for my argument is current evaluation of Bitcoin and Litecoin, and how Bitcoin spring boarded Litecoin adoption and value. You are so so so stupid to try to argue against this point.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

I have mining rigs that are down that take priority over sitting here and arguing with you. Also I'd like to play a video game or two before going to sleep for work tomorrow. I have been on these forums since I got off work today for hours. Sorry, you are not special enough for me to waste my time to explain my point to a retard troll like you.

The only evidence needed for my argument is current evaluation of Bitcoin and Litecoin, and how Bitcoin spring boarded Litecoin adoption and value. You are so so so stupid to try to argue against this point.

Quoting. Thanks, this is what I need, whatever you said is now entirely discredited to every logical person. Take a look back, you are very religious. "I don't need evidence", "the only evidence needed is [insert uncorrelated and irrelevant evidence here]", "retard troll".

I'm a bit disappointed. It's always good to have rational arguments with other people, regardless of which sides comes up in the end, but I expect too much from someone who I previously had respect for.

Some tips for next time:

Do not waste my time if you are not prepared to change your views.

Do not back out of a discussion with personal accusations and insults.

Bring evidence to support your arguments. Evidence must be relevant, and is not opinion, unless it is of many.

---

Let's get back on topic:

"Should the most popular commercial project or service have a sticky for a non-PSA announcement at the determent of other competitors?"

[CoinHoarder]

I give the same respect to others as is given to me. I was quite respectful in my first response to you, but you responded in a trollish/rude manner, so that's what you get back in return.

Ok, I'm seriously out of here now. You are so stupid that I feel my brain cells melting with each word I read that is written by you.

By the way, you cant discredit a completely valid argument, even if the person who gave that argument has vested interest in the subject, because the argument is sound regardless.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

I give the same respect to others as is given to me. I was quite respectful in my first response to you, but you responded in a trollish/rude manner, so that's what you get back in return.

Ok, I'm seriously out of here now. You are so stupid that I feel my brain cells melting with each word I read that is written by you.

By the way, you cant discredit a completely valid argument, even if the person who gave that argument has vested interest in the subject, because the argument is sound regardless.

Sure you can, especially when the argument is not valid (you keep saying it's valid, it is not, saying something again and again does not just make it valid). I've refuted it twice already, do you want me to do it another time?

Have a good day, and let's not crowd this post with offtopic and irrelevant insults.

[jubalix]

If I may say I have found both TF and CH very good and fair people to deal with. I hope to some extent this may diffuse any hard feelings, among you both who have considerable standing in this community.

I think a subtle point of elision in this is where the slippage is between deving and releasing a fork occurs and issues are arising out of structural issues of this fora.

Deving eventually may lead to a fork. It seems there is no issue with having a fork sticky, (though I leave this open if anyone wants to challenge this as legitimate). Thus where is the line between them, and around that question is perhaps where the sides of this argument may center.

Also at what point the the dissemination of information about alts/ development slip into commercial activity.

For example if a Fork was released and it also included, next fork on such and such a date,  donate here.

I apologize if I misrepresent any one, I see the thrust of the arguments as follows.

I think TF point is
[1] he pays out  advertising for commercial concerns on this site, why should some get a free ride,
[2]why should one alt be put above another?
[3]Also TF points do not "donators" to LTC in hope to profit. CUI BONO? thus is commercial Q.E.D
[4] and more

On the other hand CH I think is alluding to
[1]the greater good that will come of LTC DEV,
[2] other coins have sticky's about important issues.
and it not the major cross roads for alts the legitimate and proper place to do this?
[3] and more.


Both views have legitimate points. The reconciliation though it not easy.

I humbly point to and earlier point that I think some if these issues are arising out of the structural nature of the board in alts. For example the alt clients have an electrum child, and it would be legit I think to put up a request for donations there and no one would complain  (I accept this is slightly different point though).

The Alt board itself has reconised the clutter issue. I almost feel we need a separate ALTS forum/org, though that has a myriad of issues, with size of btcointalk and I doubt they would redirect traffic, versus their hesitance at the moment to make child boards. Eg DEV, ALTS ANN, FORKS or something like it would go some way to ameliorate the problems.

[CoinHoarder]

I apologize for my tone earlier.. I've had a little bit to drink tonight.  

Enough derailing this thread with such an important purpose.

I believe in the future of Litecoin and I hope everyone donates for at least a little bit. I seriously own less than 1 Litecoin at the moment, but I believe in it will succeed more than any other ALT coin. Even if you're not a Litecoin supporter, Litecoin is important in the ALT ecosystem in the way that Bitcoin is important to the Litecoin value.

I'm pointing my rigs their way for a while. Hopefully it helps.. got another 2Mh while I was not busy arguing on forums. *fist pump*

I'm looking forward to some improvements in the Litecoin protocol!

[mullick]

Sending some LTC your way. I hope it helps

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

I apologize for my tone earlier.. I've had a little bit to drink tonight.  

Enough derailing this thread with such an important purpose.

I believe in the future of Litecoin and I hope everyone donates for at least a little bit. I seriously own less than 1 Litecoin at the moment, but I believe in it will succeed more than any other ALT coin. Even if you're not a Litecoin supporter, Litecoin is important in the ALT ecosystem in the way that Bitcoin is important to the Litecoin value.

I'm pointing my rigs their way for a while. Hopefully it helps.. got another 2Mh while I was not busy arguing on forums. *fist pump*

I'm looking forward to some improvements in the Litecoin protocol!

Sure, but that doesn't mean this thread should be stickied. "Litecoin is important in the ALT ecosystem" isn't backed by evidence yet again, but like I already said that doesn't mean an authority should encourage litecoin while it harms other alt coins. ANY alt cryptocurrency succeeding benefits cryptocurrencies in general (but not any other coin), and it's true that force can be bigger than the userbase they steal from other alt coins. However, this is not specific to litecoin. If Terracoin is suddenly worth $100, then what? It's not specific to Litecoin.

Example: Call of Duty being very successful may increase sales of Battlefield (or people stop buying BF and just buy COD). However, the marketshare of Battlefield would still decrease. Should a government (authority) who should be neutral make a law requiring TVs to give Call of Duty free advertising spots? [sarcasm]Because it would benefit Battlefield too!![/sarcasm].

I should make it clear that it's not I don't want Litecoin to succeed. It's that this moderator action is completely out of the role of this forum, and may be a conflict of interest. This forum should be a NEUTRAL place with no alt coin giving any special preference. Let me quote this:

People are free to support whatever coin they want. Just because a coin has been longer established does not make it better than a new coin. With that, there would be no fair way to judge which coins make the official coin list, as it would either be by staff decision, which isn't fair, or public decision, which has plenty of opportunities for abuse, such as intentionally keeping out new coins in order to keep held coin value high, aka self interest.

- SaltySpitoon. Bold mine.

If I may say I have found both TF and CH very good and fair people to deal with. I hope to some extent this may diffuse any hard feelings, among you both who have considerable standing in this community.

I think a subtle point of elision in this is where the slippage is between deving and releasing a fork occurs and issues are arising out of structural issues of this fora.

Thanks. I don't think this is important. Development can lead to forks, so what? A fundrasier thread is very disconnected from fork PSAs.

Also, let's take a look at our current stickies:

[LTC] Litecoin Core Development Fundraising
PSA: No
Applies to all alt coins: No

Be safe: READ THIS BEFORE TRADING/BUYING/USING YOUR MONEY
PSA: Yes
Applies to all alt coins: Yes

Alternative Block Chains : be safe!
PSA: Yes
Applies to all alt coins: Yes

Declutter Solutions
PSA: Hard to say, but it is a formal moderator announcement
Applies to all alt coins: Yes

A previous sticky:

[FRC] - Difficulty Adjustment fork SUCCESSFUL!
PSA: Yes
Applies to all alt coins: No

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

Crossposted: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=219781.0

[relm9]

On the subject of neutrality, let me just say a sticky like this is a small part of the problem. For one there's lots of manipulation going on here by the users themselves. There's very little actual discussion going on in many of the threads, other than constant back-and-forth accusations and people bumping threads with worthless replies just to get the coin they premined back on page one. Some even have alt accounts that post trading threads with fabricated buy and sell orders in hopes of drumming up interest.

This forum definitely needs to be divided into subforums, perhaps actual discussions can take place in the main forum, while any ALT coin releases or announcements go in a subforum. Likewise, any trading should go in a dedicated subforum to reduce clutter. It's not the end-all solution by any means but may improve things.

So yes, to keep things neutral this topic should probably be un-stickied, I can agree there... but then the rest of the forum needs a massive cleanup and stricter moderation to keep things fair. This is partially why I saw no problem whatsoever with this topic at first glance.

[Brunic]

Some good arguments.

TradeFortress, I must say that you bring good arguments, and in a normal subsection of the forum, you would have convinced me.

The thing is, the alt-forum is a mess. You have the general/technical/pools/mining/important announcement/marketplace sections of every alt-coins crammed at the same place. Why this topic should have privilege? Simply because this topic is easily more important than 95% of the bullcrap in this subsection. I think you can agree with me that the quality of this subsection is pretty low and that more important topics get easily lost in the sea of spam.

This topic being stickied is only a symptom of the real problem, the current low quality of the alt-coin subsection.

[jubalix]

Some good arguments.

TradeFortress, I must say that you bring good arguments, and in a normal subsection of the forum, you would have convinced me.

The thing is, the alt-forum is a mess. You have the general/technical/pools/mining/important announcement/marketplace sections of every alt-coins crammed at the same place. Why this topic should have privilege? Simply because this topic is easily more important than 95% of the bullcrap in this subsection. I think you can agree with me that the quality of this subsection is pretty low and that more important topics get easily lost in the sea of spam.

This topic being stickied is only a symptom of the real problem, the current low quality of the alt-coin subsection.

Yes this is very close to my point....!!! well said

[Brunic]

I love the irony, the topic has been un-stickied. 

[John (John K.)]

I unstickied it. I find it ironic that when the policy was to not give preferential treatment to any coin, but this was stickied.

[prophetx]

Next time you guys need to clutter a thread with your arguing about the status of a thread can  you please start a seperate thread, and not clutter it with pissing on each other... when most of us don't care about these side arguments....

Thanks in advance  

[wtogami]

TradeFortress has a reasonable argument here.  This thread does not need to be stickied to be successful as Litecoin can win on its own merits.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AnlrnfU-U6E-dFVuUnlfZUlqek9JbzlNYjVENWp3ZlE&gid=0
Thanks to the community we are approaching 2,000 LTC in donations.

https://plus.google.com/104307324656397909502/posts
Please follow the Litecoin Project on Google+ for the latest news.  Important news about p2pool and LTC stratum pool security landed in the past day.

I remind this thread that I, the lead developer of Litecoin-0.8.2, asked the moderator to unsticky this thread because it is unnecessary for it to be successful.

[CLains]

Brunic, jubalix and I see the same essential point. Given the state of this alt forum, the sticky is warranted. De clutter problems has obviously not been solved yet.

Frankly, it is embarassing that coblee is confined to post in this section. Slow, productive, thoughtful discussions of Litecoin, Devcoin, PPC, and Namecoin are infinitely more interesting than the threads dominating for attention in this section. And yet, the only way to stay afloat is to post constantly, which gives priority to spam threads.

This thread is currently on the third page (before I posted naturally - and I posted only because of this useless argument). Logic is useless in the face of an irrational forum. For instance, if coblee had put "0.1 litecoins for every prime number post!" in the title he would automatically do the work of stickying the thread, but it would further contribute to the hogwash. Thus, his rationality in the face of the structure of the forum would lead to global irrationality (spam threads everywhere cluttering up the system).

[RandyMagnum]

tiny donation, but another still.

This lawless mess of a alt section should have sub-sections dedicated to coins over a certain, minimum market cap.  Then, all other coins have to fight it out in the thunderdome that is the alt-currency section now.  Someday, if they succeed in making it to the minimum market cap, Oprah comes out and says, "YOU GET A SUB-SECTION!"  For now, it looks like a garbage dump around this area.

[crazy_rabbit]

The problems with Alt-coins form clutter would be solved if people just used the Litecoin forums for litecoin talk. It's all litecoin, all the time. But until people make the switch, yeah, it's going to be chaos here.