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Author Topic: Building the Next Generation of Crypto-Currency (developers required)  (Read 23024 times)
kalon
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August 26, 2013, 02:14:33 AM
 #201

Is there continued movement on this project? I just read the white paper a couple days ago.  For the most part it's too complex for my tiny brain but it did touch on something aside from the unending block chain growth of Bitcoin which has bothered me for some time, the long term deflation. In the paper you had mentioned possibly expunging unused accounts after 100 years and considering the coins lost and to be recirculated. Personally I think the time should be far less than that but even 100 years would be an improvement.

I'd hate to see something as punitive as Freicoin but a system which encourages the use of the currency or at least the shuffling at some small cost seems like a good one to me. A successful long term Bitcoin economy would clearly be one in which wealthy people amass huge sums and with deflation just spend nearly endless fractions of coins in the future. It's a recipe for plutocracy far worse than we have today.

Forcing people to occasionally spend or move coins solves several problems: Lost coins can be remind and moved ensures there will be enough tx fees to keep miners happy. Both ensure a constant and fairly distributed money supply on a network which is well secured. The even money supply would also give a much better impression of the health of the network.

That's a wordy way of saying I think this project is on the right track and I hope there will be continued progress. Just don't forget about the importance of remining lost coins and consider a smaller time frame, perhaps 10 years. It should be a problem for most as long as the coins are first-in / first-out and perhaps a system of notification could be built into the client.

That's my ramble. I'd be happy to know your thoughts on this.
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August 26, 2013, 11:57:01 AM
 #202

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Is there continued movement on this project?
I don't think there's really much happening with this project at the moment. lexxus said he would do some work on it this month but I don't know whether he has or hasn't. I've been pretty focused on other projects recently but the project funds are still sitting there waiting for anyone who wants to work on this project.

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That's a wordy way of saying I think this project is on the right track and I hope there will be continued progress. Just don't forget about the importance of remining lost coins and consider a smaller time frame, perhaps 10 years. It should be a problem for most as long as the coins are first-in / first-out and perhaps a system of notification could be built into the client.
I very much agree with your sentiments concerning the re-mining of lost coins, but the reason why I don't want to put a lot of focus on re-mining is because 1) there are more important things that need to be done first and 2) it's a very controversial issue. I made a thread a while ago about the possibility of implementing re-mining lost coins into bitcoin and I found that many people strongly disagreed with the idea because it impinges on there ability to store coins in the same address for very long periods of time. The reason it needs to be at least 100 years is because then people feel safer about the idea and if they lose their coins they can't exactly say they weren't given enough time to move them.

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August 27, 2013, 08:51:59 AM
 #203

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Is there continued movement on this project?
I don't think there's really much happening with this project at the moment. lexxus said he would do some work on it this month but I don't know whether he has or hasn't. I've been pretty focused on other projects recently but the project funds are still sitting there waiting for anyone who wants to work on this project.

Sorry for not keeping you posted. I've strated working on bitcoinj code but it's moving slowly. My first goal is to bring up network connectivity and basic block mining functionality.
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August 27, 2013, 10:13:55 AM
 #204

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Is there continued movement on this project?
I don't think there's really much happening with this project at the moment. lexxus said he would do some work on it this month but I don't know whether he has or hasn't. I've been pretty focused on other projects recently but the project funds are still sitting there waiting for anyone who wants to work on this project.

Sorry for not keeping you posted. I've strated working on bitcoinj code but it's moving slowly. My first goal is to bring up network connectivity and basic block mining functionality.
Good to hear, I just appreciate that someone is working on it. If you need a bit of funding to keep you going let me know. Also, how do you intend to do things like implement the proof chain? Will it be just as a chain of block headers or a chain of proof cells? I would suggest going with a normal chain of block headers because it'll be quicker and easier and the other method doesn't offer a huge advantage anyway.

If you have any questions about how something should be done, feel free to ask. Most of the uncertainties are documented in the wiki so I would recommend going through the project wiki if you haven't done so already. I recently disabled account creation for the wiki because there was so many spam accounts being created, but if you want an account so that you can edit things then I will create one for you manually.

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September 27, 2013, 10:03:06 PM
 #205

Hi,

If any leftover job is here, i am ready to contribute.
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October 15, 2013, 01:19:42 PM
 #206

Some thoughts on the merits of an account tree approach:

1) The purpose is to reduce the data storage requirements to allow the network to sync / scale faster and thereby keep the network more decentralized.

2) Blockchain size and sync/time are ultimately only part of the problem, the other part of the problem is transaction volume and bandwidth.   If the goal is to support 100 million users each of whom is able to run the software on their home PC / average internet connection without entirely saturating it, then you would have to limit your bandwidth to something along the lines of 1 Megabit/sec or around 100 transactions per second which would mean each user could only do about 2 transactions per month and you are only involving about 1% of the world population in this network.   This network would be generating 10 GB / month or 120 GB / year in transactions.   Lets assume we could prune 50% of the transactions, 1 year would be 60 GB of data.

Compare the traditional block chain to an account tree:
A) Lets assume we have an account tree where each account consists of a public key & balance and a some other relevant accounting totaling 200 bytes per account.

B) Lets also assume that the goal is for this to scale to 100 million users world wide and that each user has exactly one account.   This is not viable from a privacy perspective, so you would have to assume 10 accounts per user that rotate over time.

C) The resulting database size would be 200 GB without any indexes or other data structures. 

D) To create a sha256 merkle tree on these accounts would require 64 GB

E) Assume you keep 1 month of transactions on hand for the mini-chain: 10 GB

Conclusion:  The account-tree chain would require ~300 GB of storage and each user would still be limited to about 2 transactions per month.   

The end result is that the account tree and full-block chain system have identical support for transaction volume, with only about a 6x gain in data storage efficiency or break even with 6 years of transaction volume.

Clearly the bandwidth is the bottle neck of scalability and not the data storage.    If you allow the bandwidth to scale enough to accommodate the transaction volume of VISA then everyone would require a 1 Gigabit connection to the internet at which point you are already well beyond the scale of the average individual and well into the realm of centralized financial institutions which would be logging every transaction forever anyway, the account tree system would just be extra book-keeping for these organizations which would probably maintain a separate index optimized for their queries.

A decentralized blockchain is transaction rate limited, not storage limited.   If the only change you made to the blockchain was to automatically expire / invalidate any unspent output more than 12 months old you would solve the data storage problem, the dust problem, the bootstrap problem, and the lost-key problem.   And you would be left with the same scalability problems as the account-tree based approach. 

What I conclude is that the account tree system at most provides some benefits for medium-scale systems involving perhaps 1 million users but is entirely irrelevant once you scale to the size Bitcoin aims to achieve.  
The main thing that you are not taking into consideration is the fact that we wont reach 1 billion accounts in the account tree for an extremely long time, and by then it wont be unreasonable to expect people to deal with those sorts of large data sets (presumably). Now calculate how long it would take for the bitcoin blockchain to reach 300GB at the current rate of growth. Not too long I'm willing to bet, even with good pruning.

Furthermore, each account will be much smaller than 200 bytes, it will be closer to the 54 byte example you gave on the last page. No higher than 80 bytes in the worste case. If we assume 60 bytes instead of 200 bytes per account you'll find that it's only 55 gigabytes required. Also, the mini-blockchain will probably keep 1 weeks history or less, a full month is far too long if we need to account for very large transaction rates.

EDIT: But I do agree the system is not perfect and has its limitations, like any decentralized system. The answer is multiple competing crypto-currencies as you mentioned in your last post. But I don't think we would need thousands or even hundreds of coins, if we were to use the mini-blockchain / account tree scheme for those crypto-currencies, a few dozen or so could handle the entire worlds transaction needs I believe.

USA is way behind rest of the world, e.g. Hong Kong residents can get 0.5 Gbps for $25 monthly. This is due to telcom monopolies. Google is installing 1 gigabit where it can:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/24/us-internet-speed_n_3645927.html

So the USA crashes and burns in a heap of socialism debris. Bitcoin moves to Asia where the future is.

Also as we make our way through this global financial implosion, the mainstream are going to herd with the socialism and not adopt the new technology. It is only AFTER the destruction of their financial system, after the reset they make their way to the new thing. So mostly you will see the adoption of the digital coins limited to the astute who want to jump off the Titantic:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=279771.msg3340053#msg3340053

We shouldn't have the scaling problems, because by the time the mainstream comes on board after 2033 (when mining ceases in Bitcoin), the relevant places of growth in the reset economy will have more than 1 gigabit connections.

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CoinHoarder
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December 06, 2013, 05:07:35 AM
 #207

Is this project still under development? No updates since August 27, 2013 Cry

bitfreak!
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December 06, 2013, 05:27:13 AM
 #208

Is this project still under development? No updates since August 27, 2013 Cry

I gave up on trying to form a team of developers and instead set up a bounty:

[BOUNTY] $20,000 Mini-Blockchain Implementation

I heard rumors that some people were working on an implementation but the bounty is still unclaimed so far.

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December 06, 2013, 05:41:05 AM
 #209

Is this project still under development? No updates since August 27, 2013 Cry

I gave up on trying to form a team of developers and instead set up a bounty:

[BOUNTY] $20,000 Mini-Blockchain Implementation

I heard rumors that some people were working on an implementation but the bounty is still unclaimed so far.

Thanks for the update! I'm glad to see you made a bounty for this, how selfless of you. I hope someone comes through and claims this bounty. Block chain bloat is something I think will become a problem in the future.

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January 30, 2014, 07:36:35 PM
 #210

We're looking to implement this (or a reasonably similar system).

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July 12, 2014, 04:09:16 PM
 #211

track

Give a man a fish and he eats for a day.  Give a man a Poisson distribution and he eats at random times independent of one another, at a constant known rate.
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