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Author Topic: Selling an apartment in Milan (Italy) for bitcoins, 100% legit!  (Read 2027 times)
californiaquail
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October 12, 2017, 07:37:35 PM
 #21

900€/Monthly rent for a 230,000€ property sounds fair, that's what i would get if i were to rent my place which is around 230K too.

You're talking about a residential neighbourhood, are there any AirBNB listings close to it ?
Depending on the neighbourhood/city, that can easily double your monthly income, that's a factor to take into consideration.


 I'm launching an Bitcoin Art &Luxury marketplace by the end of the month, i'm looking for real estate and would like to consider listing your place, but i would need at least some pictures lol.

I had a signature and it got deleted.
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newbit85
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October 13, 2017, 05:13:05 PM
 #22

Hello again guys, sorry for taking so long but I was swamped with work (I'm helping a friend set up an art business),  I had a couple of conversation with friends expert in taxes about this, I'm also having agents re-evaluate the house.

In order to sell I will have to investigate further a couple of legal issues and I'll have to find a tax accountant that is capable of tackling new territory, my current one is not comfortable doing that and is just advising to sell in in fiat and not buy bitcoins at all. I'm dumping him.

In the meantime I went to the house and took some recent pictures, I'm editing the first post but I'm still not listing it on property websites because I might contact an agency and ask them to help with the bitcoin transaction in which case they will list it. I also had an agent come over to the house and re-evaluate it, it did loose quite some value since it was bought (I bought it well before the recession and even though the market recovered since 2012 it's still not back right were it was, it's slowly raising but it's still a bit slow, banks in Italy do not offer mortgages so easily, but there's huge rental demand for the area) and I will have to lower the price, how much exactly I'll know when I talk to more agents.

The current situation when it comes to doing the transaction in bitcoin as far as I could gather from my old tax consultant and friends experts in taxes is that nobody is quite sure how I should get taxated (as the seller) if I do not convert the btc to fiat immediately (or within the fiscal year) and declare it in my tax return as eur currency.
 
I do believe that there are ways to do it, for example if I was to sell the house for gold or diamonds I would be in the same situation, but I need to find a better tax consultant to do this and not get accused of tax evasion and get huge fines.

When it comes to the buyer the situation is a lot more simple, current property taxes are not calculated on the market value of the house or transaction value on the deed, but rather on the address and the house size, the state takes care of updating those values and list them road by road, this together with the size of the house and a few more infos, like if it is a commercial property or a residential property, if it is a house with a tennant or not or if the owner lives in it are used to calculate the amount of property taxes that the owner needs to pay each year (in euros),
All of that is completely independent from the value/currency of the transaction on the deed so this is straightforward and poses no obstacle.

When it comes to a foreigner buying the house and getting taxated afterwards (including rent, not just property taxes) that too is pretty straightforward, there are laws in place to do that. You would get euros for the rent, and that has to be paid with a SEPA bank transfer, the easiest way would be to make a tax consultant your fiscal representative and get him to receive the SEPA bank transfer each month and pay taxes and then transfer the remainder to your bank account overseas, or you could just become a fiscal resident yourself (this implies actually moving over), there may be limitation based on your nationality but these have to be investigated on a case by case basis.

I'm also getting a lot of interest from other sources and a couple of people are looking at this to see if they can sell their property this way too, as I said the market is a bit slow and I see opportunities here, in this case the property is a good investment to collect rent or to move to Italy, it's very close to piazzale loreto, via padova (google maps) and it's easy to rent it to a couple of workers or a single, I rent it at 600euros easily since decades, but you could find a tennant for up to 700, you can ask an agency to take care of that for a fee, I do that myself but it is my country so it's easier to take this option.

I'm at your disposal for any inquiry, I am actively looking for a buyer and I'm thinking about opening a bitcoin real estate agency if I can make this deal happen with my own property, In order to become a real estate agent in Italy you only need to take an exam and the licence is not that expensive (less than 500euros), as I said the market is kinda slow here in Italy, foreign buyers are welcome and there's plenty of great property around that begs for buyers with liquidity, bitcoins are a very convenient currency for international buyers and we all see how this could become the norm for this kind of transaction
newbit85
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October 13, 2017, 05:46:06 PM
 #23

Good to see that there are more uses of bitcoin rather than just storing and trading. If btc can be used for the buying/selling goods and services means its the real use of the btc and cypto currencies. Will watch this thread and wishes you success for selling the house for btc and do let us know once the deal is finalized.


thanks for the support!
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October 13, 2017, 06:09:52 PM
 #24

900€/Monthly rent for a 230,000€ property sounds fair, that's what i would get if i were to rent my place which is around 230K too.

600€/monthly rent, not 900.
I found out the house is worth less than I originally estimated,  I'll have to check with more agents to update the price.

It still is a good investment according to the same agent that told me tehe bad news, mostly because the house is in a pretty central and well served location, I've now edited the post to show the approximate address.

You're talking about a residential neighbourhood, are there any AirBNB listings close to it ?
Depending on the neighbourhood/city, that can easily double your monthly income, that's a factor to take into consideration.

yes there are indeed, around 50eur per night on the same street.

https://www.airbnb.com/s/Via-Padova-18/homes?adults=1&children=0&infants=0&source=hdr&allow_override%5B%5D=&s_tag=UHRRTmHx

I'm launching an Bitcoin Art &Luxury marketplace by the end of the month, i'm looking for real estate and would like to consider listing your place, but i would need at least some pictures lol.

I'm very much interested!
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October 13, 2017, 06:14:26 PM
 #25

Milan is city of my dream , but now i don`t have so much bitcoins Cry
krogothmanhattan
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October 14, 2017, 11:26:19 AM
 #26

Yes some photos would help Wink

newbit85
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October 15, 2017, 10:04:01 AM
 #27

Yes some photos would help Wink

I've edited the firt post with images, here they are are aswell

https://imgur.com/a/gjcx4
pixie85
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October 19, 2017, 11:18:53 PM
 #28

Yes some photos would help Wink

I've edited the firt post with images, here they are are aswell

https://imgur.com/a/gjcx4
Looks like 4th floor, no elevator. It would require a lot of money to be put into it to make it look decent. For instance doors are in a bad shape. You have bars in windows, but your lock could be picked in seconds so the security is non existent and the bars only make people inside feel like they were in a cage. The view isn't great either.
I don't know what the end price will be but an apartment like that shouldn't cost more than 20 BTC.

newbit85
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October 22, 2017, 12:28:01 PM
 #29



Looks like 4th floor, no elevator.

Correct.

It would require a lot of money to be put into it to make it look decent. For instance doors are in a bad shape.

No, it does not need renovation, you're under the wrong impression
Are you referring the door shown in these picture?

the door on the left of the picture.
https://imgur.com/R2L2Zt7
in that picture the main apt. door was open and you can't see the door or the lock.

the door clearly shown here
https://imgur.com/GRwg64r

If that is the door you're referring to it does not belong to this house, there is only one main door to the apartment and is shown in this picture on the far right.
https://imgur.com/R2L2Zt7




Sorry I didn't take a clear picture of the main door closed from the outside, you can kind see it from the inside, I didn't think about it because it's no issue at all to me, it's a heavy wooden door pretty standard safety, the same doors are found all over the building, and it's got a modern key, not the kind of old lock you can see in the door actually shown in the left of that picture

You have bars in windows, but your lock could be picked in seconds so the security is non existent and the bars only make people inside feel like they were in a cage.

That arrangement (internal courtyard with balconies and the houses main doors on the balcony) it's a traditional Milan layout, that creates the issue of the windows on the balcony, the solution in these houses all over Milan are window-bars, they're only installed on the doors facing the internal balcony and the inside courtyard, the bedroom window facing the outside street does not come with bars.

The view isn't great either.

You mean the views to the internal courtyard? or the view (I didn't took a picture of that) from the bedroom window?

please consider this is Milan, a house with a great view (parks, etc.) goes for hundreds of thousand of euros more, Milan is a pretty grey business oriented city.

I don't know what the end price will be but an apartment like that shouldn't cost more than 20 BTC.

I don't think you are being truly serious here, do you realize this is Milan and the house is pretty much in the CBD of the city?

At the time of your post 20btc at BTC/USD exchange were exchanged around 5,500.00 usd, that makes 20btc equal to 110,000.00eur, which translates to approx 2400euros per square meter.

At the time of my first post BTC/USD were at 3700usd, my first figure was 60btc which translate to approx 220.00eur, which makes it 4900euros per square meter, the price I paid for the house in the '90.

As I said I did find out the house has lost quite a bit of value since the '90s (things were going really well in Milan back then and we probably paid an above average price for the house), The house has been evaluated in the last couple of weeks by real estate agents and they valued it at approx 3400euros per square meter (lowest estimate was 3290, highest 3670).

The reason for that is location, ease of rent (considering the location and the size of the house renting it at 600euros is very easy, you can go up to 700euros and still find a tenant) and the fact that it's in a very nice building, those kind of building with the internal balcony are in high demand in Milan since the newer buildings do not follow the same lay-out (in modern architecture an internal courtyard that size compared to the building size is considered a waste of valuable construction space).

Given all of the above I think I want to review my asking price at 153,000.00 euros or 3400euros per square meter (that's what I asked the agents).

Considering I really do want to sell this property in btc and both I and the foreign buyer would have to go through some regulations loops (=headahces) to achieve the sale with btc and not fiat I might consider a btc discount of 3000euros, settling for 150.000euros in btc (at the time of the sale, no point in providing a btc amount now considering how volatile that value is).

If other buyers here are interested in properties on the 20-30btc (at current exchange rate of 6000usd) there's plenty of opportunities, foreign buyers might be more interested in vacation and holiday houses, maybe on some Italian coast line close to a beach, there are properties like that, plenty of them.

As I said in previous posts there's quite a lot of interest in Italy to sell properties in btc and I might be able to find some courageous seller like me that wants to go through with this, but don't think you are gonna get a huge discount like the one you talked about just because it's btc, on the same side I won't charge a premium to a foreign buyer just because he'e foreigner or because I know they probably paid their btc half of what they're selling them for.

My intention is not to ripp-off bitcoiners or to get ripped-off, my sole intention is to help bitcoins achieve the status I believe they should hold (transaction for international real estate sales are a perfect use case for btc).
pixie85
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October 22, 2017, 07:37:34 PM
 #30

Thanks for the response and a detailed explanation. Yes' I was talking about the doors that were visible in the pictures and the view from the window that you've posted.
As you can see potential buyers will focus on the things that are closer, clearly shown. Not the things in the background. If you want to sell it you have to show the strongest parts of the apartment. The view from the window is one of those things.

The reason why I found the price to be high is that I have been living in a number of EU capitals and have seen much cheaper places with much more light inside for less. Your price of 150000 € for 45 sqm is still high in my view because you can find plenty of much cheaper places for sale.
A quick glimpse and we got: 47 sqm, 2 rooms in Milan for 59000, so you can have roughly 2 fully furnished apartments with new appliances for the price of the one you're selling.
https://property-italy.immobiliare.it/62944684-apartments-for-sale-Milan.html
https://property-italy.immobiliare.it/63160130-apartments-for-sale-Milan.html

rodik888
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October 23, 2017, 03:57:55 PM
 #31

Hey Mate, welcome to the club who accepts crypto currencies!

We're building a classified platform where businesses such as yours can post your ads and have real time crypto coin purchase your property with them.
Would be awesome to get you guys on board @ http://ClassiCoins.Online

We're in the process of getting 100 listings before Oct 31st, so that we began marketing the platform to end users (your clients) as of Nov 1st.
Looking forward to seeing what you've got to post. Also, if you have multiple products and/or services, please post them in all the right categories, would be greatly appreciated... also use pictures to get more engagement.

Cheers!

Crypto-Consultant for your trading & ICO project needs.

--> @RodikMik.Me
--> Community Project @ ClassiCoins.Online
newbit85
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October 24, 2017, 07:40:05 AM
 #32

Thanks for the response and a detailed explanation.

Thanks for your response and valuable feedback!
 Smiley

Yes' I was talking about the doors that were visible in the pictures and the view from the window that you've posted.
As you can see potential buyers will focus on the things that are closer, clearly shown. Not the things in the background. If you want to sell it you have to show the strongest parts of the apartment. The view from the window is one of those things.

Thanks for the comment, they are not the best pics and they don't look professional.

The reason why I found the price to be high is that I have been living in a number of EU capitals and have seen much cheaper places with much more light inside for less. Your price of 150000 € for 45 sqm is still high in my view because you can find plenty of much cheaper places for sale.

For sure that design provide less light inside the house than in modern condos, there's two windows, the bedroom is definitely light enough, being on the fourth floor it does get more light than the windows at lower floors.
The living room/kitchen could definitely do with one more windows (ad maybe not a black library) but the house layout just doesn't allow it, two walls are exposed to the outside, both have a window and those are the two shown, the bathroom has a fan connected to a chimney to ventilate.

Funny thing is people in Milan love and look for those houses with the internal courtyard precisely for this reason (more light and ventilation), there's little in the means of parks and greenery in Milan so they grow nice balcony gardens and basically live the internal courtyard as a private garden, in the summer everybody keeps their doors open to ventilate and you get a very communal living experience, it's the Milan tradition, that's one of the reason the house has been evaluated at that.

A quick glimpse and we got: 47 sqm, 2 rooms in Milan for 59000, so you can have roughly 2 fully furnished apartments with new appliances for the price of the one you're selling.
https://property-italy.immobiliare.it/62944684-apartments-for-sale-Milan.html
https://property-italy.immobiliare.it/63160130-apartments-for-sale-Milan.html

One is in Milano Rogoredo, and the other is in Via Cretese, both are in the suburbs outside the first ring of the city, the apt. I'm selling is in via padova loreto/pasteur, which is right in the cbd, exactly on the first ring itself, that's where the price difference comes from, it also stems from the fact that the houses with the internal courtyard with the balcony are a traditional Milan design while the two you mentioned are apartment in modern condos.

The apt. I'm selling is good for two things:

1) you work or study in Milan and need a house in the cbd, this is literally 10min walk from the Main Station (Milano Centrale) and 500meters from the Piazzale loreto Underground stop. I think you can eventually get something within the cbd or close enough at around 100.000euros but it's definitely gonna be smaller (single room and a toilet) and on a lower floor.

2) you want to make an investment and rent the place, considering one can go as high as 700 with my place a foreigner could just ask an agency to manage tenants and just get rent minus fees and taxes, in this regard this apt. is definitely in high rent demand, the further away you move from the cbd the less the demand and ease of rent for a price that would make it feasible to rent through an agency.

The main difference of course is rent amount and demand, I can't be sure of how much exactly you would rent those places for, but I'm pretty sure it would be cheaper than what you could make with this place. I'm currently renting at 600 but consider that I gave a discount to the tenant (It was 700) because we have a long standing relationship, the previous tenant was a friend of this one and basically this group of people is being renting my apt. for years now.
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