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Author Topic: Power cost for mining  (Read 1206 times)
puwaha
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September 17, 2017, 10:22:02 PM
 #21

I don't disagree with the warnings for newer miners, but I disagree with the calculations people provide in those arguments.  The disagreement comes from the advice that buying a coin is a better prospect than mining a coin, and not taking into account at least *some* capital recovery when selling the GPUs, and motherboards on the secondary market.  Those proceeds from selling old GPUs will either bolster overall profits when the miner quits, or will go towards upgrading to more powerful/efficient equipment.

I do agree that new miners thinking they will recoup their capital investment costs (not ROI) in less than 6 months are gone for now.  They must be prepared to stick it out for a year or more at this point... and no one knows what the future will bring.

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September 17, 2017, 10:24:47 PM
 #22

The problem is that warranty usually lasts one year and in some cases warranty requests are not granted, meaning you will take the loss and move on, so if we see a roi of 1 year and 6 months right now for the whole system then we see no profit at all cause think about, leaving 24 hours the computer on is challenging, there are too many internal and external problems in which you have no control, thunderstorms, thieves, natural disasters, accidents and so many more, so meaning, mining really needs to be profitable for you to be mining, i'd say at least $2.50 for a card that cost $400. A roi to be okay must be less than 200 days, if more than 200 days then is a problem and right now gpu mining profit is terrible cause hardware is overpriced and profit is underpriced hehe
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September 17, 2017, 10:34:58 PM
 #23


If you are saying $3 per day with 1 graphics card then I must say that your are the greatest liar ever, not even with 1 x gtx 1080 ti

 1080 ti DOES in fact make very close to $3 a day on some coins currently - even with the big dump - it's just not CONSISTANTLY doing so the last 3 days.


 On the other hand, the days of "2-3 month ROI on gear" are gone, and unlikely to return anytime soon IF at all.
 It would take a major VERY SHORT TIMEFRAME big price jump (much like Feb/March timeframe THIS year) to manage that - or it would take a major price DUMP for quite a while to convince most miners to get out, then sometime AFTER that a big price jump.


 People got SPOILED the last few months with the crazy VERY ABNORMAL level of profitability.

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September 17, 2017, 10:44:13 PM
 #24

1080 ti DOES in fact make very close to $3 a day on some coins currently - even with the big dump - it's just not CONSISTANTLY doing so the last 3 days.
Not sure whatthehell you are mining cause this link says otherwise, 1 gtx 1080 ti gives $1.80 net per day on Signatum(SIGT) which is on top on the profit list. So in turn if you paid $700 then your roi will be 433 days and that is assuming you make the same as whattomine says which is not true, expect 20% less than whattomine says and not counting problems, downtime and many other things, meaning your roi will likely be 500 days.

https://whattomine.com/coins?utf8=%E2%9C%93&adapt_q_280x=0&adapt_q_380=0&adapt_q_fury=0&adapt_q_470=1&adapt_q_480=1&adapt_q_570=0&adapt_q_580=0&adapt_q_750Ti=0&adapt_q_10606=0&adapt_q_1070=1&adapt_q_1080=0&adapt_q_1080Ti=1&adapt_1080Ti=true&eth=true&factor%5Beth_hr%5D=35.0&factor%5Beth_p%5D=140.0&grof=true&factor%5Bgro_hr%5D=58.0&factor%5Bgro_p%5D=210.0&x11gf=true&factor%5Bx11g_hr%5D=19.5&factor%5Bx11g_p%5D=170.0&cn=true&factor%5Bcn_hr%5D=830.0&factor%5Bcn_p%5D=140.0&eq=true&factor%5Beq_hr%5D=635.0&factor%5Beq_p%5D=190.0&lre=true&factor%5Blrev2_hr%5D=64000.0&factor%5Blrev2_p%5D=190.0&ns=true&factor%5Bns_hr%5D=1400.0&factor%5Bns_p%5D=190.0&lbry=true&factor%5Blbry_hr%5D=460.0&factor%5Blbry_p%5D=190.0&bk2bf=true&factor%5Bbk2b_hr%5D=2800.0&factor%5Bbk2b_p%5D=190.0&bk14=true&factor%5Bbk14_hr%5D=4350.0&factor%5Bbk14_p%5D=210.0&pas=true&factor%5Bpas_hr%5D=1700.0&factor%5Bpas_p%5D=210.0&skh=true&factor%5Bskh_hr%5D=47.5&factor%5Bskh_p%5D=190.0&factor%5Bl2z_hr%5D=420.0&factor%5Bl2z_p%5D=300.0&factor%5Bcost%5D=0.19&sort=Profitability24&volume=0&revenue=24h&factor%5Bexchanges%5D%5B%5D=&factor%5Bexchanges%5D%5B%5D=bittrex&factor%5Bexchanges%5D%5B%5D=bleutrade&factor%5Bexchanges%5D%5B%5D=bter&factor%5Bexchanges%5D%5B%5D=c_cex&factor%5Bexchanges%5D%5B%5D=cryptopia&factor%5Bexchanges%5D%5B%5D=poloniex&factor%5Bexchanges%5D%5B%5D=yobit&dataset=Main&commit=Calculate
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September 17, 2017, 11:04:48 PM
 #25

I don't disagree with the warnings for newer miners, but I disagree with the calculations people provide in those arguments.  The disagreement comes from the advice that buying a coin is a better prospect than mining a coin, and not taking into account at least *some* capital recovery when selling the GPUs, and motherboards on the secondary market.  Those proceeds from selling old GPUs will either bolster overall profits when the miner quits, or will go towards upgrading to more powerful/efficient equipment.

I do agree that new miners thinking they will recoup their capital investment costs (not ROI) in less than 6 months are gone for now.  They must be prepared to stick it out for a year or more at this point... and no one knows what the future will bring.

But how about if in one year there in no longer any mining profit? Past ROIs of 3-4 months were not only fantastic opportunities, but they were also short enough to at least have some semblance of what the actual ROI period would be in real life. Even with a fudge factor built in to the predictions an extra month or two would not materially affect the miner's long-term plans.

But now that we are entering the phase of 12 month+ ROI forecasts, with some as long as 18 months to 2 years, even the calculations comes into question as there is no reliable way to predict that far out. So even if I am fine with spending $2400 today on a 6x RX580 rig that gets 180 Mhash/sec and nets (after electric) $5 a day, I do the math and say well 480 days is not so bad. There is no way that calculation is going to hold up for a 480 days period. Next month profit will most likely be down to $4 day, the month after maybe $3 a day, by the end of the year maybe it is $2/day.

So we have the following hypothetical example:
September - $5/day * 30 = $150 (I use the whole month to make it easier)
October - $4/day * 31 = $124
November - $3/day * 30 = $90
December - $2/day * 31 = $64

So a new miner who just invested $2400 in hardware might make $428 of that back by year's end.

So using your capital recovery argument, they see reason at that time and then liquidate their hardware assets. Well by then the GPU craze will be over and retail prices will be back to MSRP or even at a slight discount due to the (now flooding) used market. So that $2400 in hardware might only get $1200. But even if we are generous and say it is still worth $1600 used, we can add to it the $428 in profit and the investor only has $2028 to show for his $2400 investment, or a $372 loss, not counting the time and effort.

And yes, a massive increase in coin prices would push off the inevitable day of reckoning a little bit longer, but then we get back to the "better off to buy the coin directly" argument you do despise.
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September 17, 2017, 11:16:55 PM
 #26

...and you guys are not even taking into account that there will be GTX 11 generation next year. This will kill resell value and make your hashrate not competitive against GDDR6 etc.
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September 17, 2017, 11:19:44 PM
 #27

Last time gpu mining profitability went close to zero buying hash was really profitable. We'll see how it plays out this time.

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September 17, 2017, 11:26:07 PM
 #28

...and you guys are not even taking into account that there will be GTX 11 generation next year. This will kill resell value and make your hashrate not competitive against GDDR6 etc.

Most trolls think about now, reason you see many saying "my 1080 ti is awesome, i got my roi already!", all lies, that is what they do, brag lies, the only ones who got the roi many times were the traders. ETH before the pump was $7, 90% of miners sold at that price, 5% sold at $14, 3% sold at $28, 1% sold at $100, 0.01% sold at $400, see there you go hehe, traders got more than 2000%, miners got at most 120% if they come from the beginning which is march last year, new miners that started on april did not even get 30% of their roi hehe but they will tell you they did hehe
Za1n
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September 17, 2017, 11:27:52 PM
 #29

...and you guys are not even taking into account that there will be GTX 11 generation next year. This will kill resell value and make your hashrate not competitive against GDDR6 etc.

Agreed, this is another reason that ROI estimates greater than 12 months are really unrealistic, in that new hardware will come out making the calculations even less likely to hold up over such a long period of time.
puwaha
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September 17, 2017, 11:31:05 PM
 #30

I don't disagree with the warnings for newer miners, but I disagree with the calculations people provide in those arguments.  The disagreement comes from the advice that buying a coin is a better prospect than mining a coin, and not taking into account at least *some* capital recovery when selling the GPUs, and motherboards on the secondary market.  Those proceeds from selling old GPUs will either bolster overall profits when the miner quits, or will go towards upgrading to more powerful/efficient equipment.

I do agree that new miners thinking they will recoup their capital investment costs (not ROI) in less than 6 months are gone for now.  They must be prepared to stick it out for a year or more at this point... and no one knows what the future will bring.

But how about if in one year there in no longer any mining profit? Past ROIs of 3-4 months were not only fantastic opportunities, but they were also short enough to at least have some semblance of what the actual ROI period would be in real life. Even with a fudge factor built in to the predictions an extra month or two would not materially affect the miner's long-term plans.

But now that we are entering the phase of 12 month+ ROI forecasts, with some as long as 18 months to 2 years, even the calculations comes into question as there is no reliable way to predict that far out. So even if I am fine with spending $2400 today on a 6x RX580 rig that gets 180 Mhash/sec and nets (after electric) $5 a day, I do the math and say well 480 days is not so bad. There is no way that calculation is going to hold up for a 480 days period. Next month profit will most likely be down to $4 day, the month after maybe $3 a day, by the end of the year maybe it is $2/day.

So we have the following hypothetical example:
September - $5/day * 30 = $150 (I use the whole month to make it easier)
October - $4/day * 31 = $124
November - $3/day * 30 = $90
December - $2/day * 31 = $64

So a new miner who just invested $2400 in hardware might make $428 of that back by year's end.

So using your capital recovery argument, they see reason at that time and then liquidate their hardware assets. Well by then the GPU craze will be over and retail prices will be back to MSRP or even at a slight discount due to the (now flooding) used market. So that $2400 in hardware might only get $1200. But even if we are generous and say it is still worth $1600 used, we can add to it the $428 in profit and the investor only has $2028 to show for his $2400 investment, or a $372 loss, not counting the time and effort.

And yes, a massive increase in coin prices would push off the inevitable day of reckoning a little bit longer, but then we get back to the "better off to buy the coin directly" argument you do despise.


This is a valid hypothetical scenario... but only one of a thousand different hypothetical scenarios.  What happens if you buy a coin, and it never goes back to the price that you bought it for?

puwaha
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September 17, 2017, 11:35:16 PM
 #31

...and you guys are not even taking into account that there will be GTX 11 generation next year. This will kill resell value and make your hashrate not competitive against GDDR6 etc.

Gamers will still buy GTX 10 cards.  The market will determine their value on the secondary market, and that price will fluctuate depending on how many miners are dumping to upgrade or to get out of mining completely.  Heck, gamers are still buying GTX 900 cards if the price is right, and they are up to 2 years old at this point.

puwaha
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September 17, 2017, 11:37:12 PM
 #32

...and you guys are not even taking into account that there will be GTX 11 generation next year. This will kill resell value and make your hashrate not competitive against GDDR6 etc.

Most trolls think about now, reason you see many saying "my 1080 ti is awesome, i got my roi already!", all lies, that is what they do, brag lies, the only ones who got the roi many times were the traders. ETH before the pump was $7, 90% of miners sold at that price, 5% sold at $14, 3% sold at $28, 1% sold at $100, 0.01% sold at $400, see there you go hehe, traders got more than 2000%, miners got at most 120% if they come from the beginning which is march last year, new miners that started on april did not even get 30% of their roi hehe but they will tell you they did hehe

This is also disingenuous.  Traders also bought and sold at those price milestones as well.  Very few people actually bought in at $7 or less and held for long term.

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September 17, 2017, 11:38:21 PM
 #33

Where I live secondary market cards are trash, people just want the new and best marketing card.

This is also disingenuous.  Traders also bought and sold at those price milestones as well.  Very few people actually bought in at $7 or less and held for long term.

We cant say traders sold like the miners, traders don't need to pay electricity, miners do, so miners will always sell coins at whatever price is at moment cause they need the money to pay the electricity, now traders don't have that problem, they can hold much much much longer.
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September 17, 2017, 11:46:04 PM
 #34

I don't disagree with the warnings for newer miners, but I disagree with the calculations people provide in those arguments.  The disagreement comes from the advice that buying a coin is a better prospect than mining a coin, and not taking into account at least *some* capital recovery when selling the GPUs, and motherboards on the secondary market.  Those proceeds from selling old GPUs will either bolster overall profits when the miner quits, or will go towards upgrading to more powerful/efficient equipment.

I do agree that new miners thinking they will recoup their capital investment costs (not ROI) in less than 6 months are gone for now.  They must be prepared to stick it out for a year or more at this point... and no one knows what the future will bring.

But how about if in one year there in no longer any mining profit? Past ROIs of 3-4 months were not only fantastic opportunities, but they were also short enough to at least have some semblance of what the actual ROI period would be in real life. Even with a fudge factor built in to the predictions an extra month or two would not materially affect the miner's long-term plans.

But now that we are entering the phase of 12 month+ ROI forecasts, with some as long as 18 months to 2 years, even the calculations comes into question as there is no reliable way to predict that far out. So even if I am fine with spending $2400 today on a 6x RX580 rig that gets 180 Mhash/sec and nets (after electric) $5 a day, I do the math and say well 480 days is not so bad. There is no way that calculation is going to hold up for a 480 days period. Next month profit will most likely be down to $4 day, the month after maybe $3 a day, by the end of the year maybe it is $2/day.

So we have the following hypothetical example:
September - $5/day * 30 = $150 (I use the whole month to make it easier)
October - $4/day * 31 = $124
November - $3/day * 30 = $90
December - $2/day * 31 = $64

So a new miner who just invested $2400 in hardware might make $428 of that back by year's end.

So using your capital recovery argument, they see reason at that time and then liquidate their hardware assets. Well by then the GPU craze will be over and retail prices will be back to MSRP or even at a slight discount due to the (now flooding) used market. So that $2400 in hardware might only get $1200. But even if we are generous and say it is still worth $1600 used, we can add to it the $428 in profit and the investor only has $2028 to show for his $2400 investment, or a $372 loss, not counting the time and effort.

And yes, a massive increase in coin prices would push off the inevitable day of reckoning a little bit longer, but then we get back to the "better off to buy the coin directly" argument you do despise.


This is a valid hypothetical scenario... but only one of a thousand different hypothetical scenarios.  What happens if you buy a coin, and it never goes back to the price that you bought it for?

Then you are in the same boat as the hypothetical miner above who invested $2400 to mine the same coin, however by holding a coin you can cut your losses a lot quicker than a miner can.

I am not against mining or am I against trading as I do both. However, there is a time to do one or the other and getting into mining right now just isn't a good investment. Early this year it was a good investment, simply because the run-up in prices in virtual every coin. So now we have this big group of people who either bought a bunch of mining gear and got rich, who maybe held a lot of coins (almost anything) and became rich, and those who first invested into cryptocurrency (again almost anything) and become rich. So most of the people we see posting really never went through the bad times, they have only seen good times where almost any decision right or wrong has paid off since everything has went up so dramatically.

So now myself and a few others try to inject some reason into to all these "you can't lose money" type of posts but are just meant with ridicule and disdain. Yeah, everyone wants to party to keep going and easy money to keep flowing in, but at some point you really need to sit down, do the calculations, the real ones and not rosy "if the price shoots up I will be golden" type ones, and come to your own conclusions. Markets do have boom and bust cycles and mining follows along with that but also has unique dynamics all its own.

As I type this the mining difficulty for most popular coins continues to rise even with the recent downtrend in price. This means even if prices recover, the amount of coins a given hash-rate can produce will be less than it was in the past. So prices not only need to recover, they need to go up enough to offset the increase in difficulty that has occurred in the meantime. This would mean Ethereum would probably need to hit $500-$600 to even remotely return to recent mining profitability numbers. So eventually one way or another the mining glory days will come to a halt, either by a sustained market downtrend or after a complete saturation of network hash-rate.
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September 18, 2017, 04:11:37 AM
 #35

This is a valid hypothetical scenario... but only one of a thousand different hypothetical scenarios.  What happens if you buy a coin, and it never goes back to the price that you bought it for?

Then you are in the same boat as the hypothetical miner above who invested $2400 to mine the same coin, however by holding a coin you can cut your losses a lot quicker than a miner can.

That's not the scenario for miners at all.  Miners don't have a price point for the coin to wait for... they can either dump for profits now, to offset their capital investment, or hold and wait for higher prices at any time.  At no time does a miner operate at a "loss" except when electricity costs more than the revenue the mining is bringing in.


Quote
I am not against mining or am I against trading as I do both. However, there is a time to do one or the other and getting into mining right now just isn't a good investment. Early this year it was a good investment, simply because the run-up in prices in virtual every coin. So now we have this big group of people who either bought a bunch of mining gear and got rich, who maybe held a lot of coins (almost anything) and became rich, and those who first invested into cryptocurrency (again almost anything) and become rich. So most of the people we see posting really never went through the bad times, they have only seen good times where almost any decision right or wrong has paid off since everything has went up so dramatically.

This is very true.  I think Alan Greenspan called it "irrational exuberance" prior to the markets crashing in 2008.



Quote
So now myself and a few others try to inject some reason into to all these "you can't lose money" type of posts but are just meant with ridicule and disdain. Yeah, everyone wants to party to keep going and easy money to keep flowing in, but at some point you really need to sit down, do the calculations, the real ones and not rosy "if the price shoots up I will be golden" type ones, and come to your own conclusions. Markets do have boom and bust cycles and mining follows along with that but also has unique dynamics all its own.

And I agree with a little bit of sanity checking... my only disagreement is when people say just buying the coin is a better way, and they don't take the full life cycle of a miner into account when trying to show the calculations.  Ignoring resale of equipment is not painting the correct picture between mining versus just buying a coin.


Quote
As I type this the mining difficulty for most popular coins continues to rise even with the recent downtrend in price. This means even if prices recover, the amount of coins a given hash-rate can produce will be less than it was in the past. So prices not only need to recover, they need to go up enough to offset the increase in difficulty that has occurred in the meantime. This would mean Ethereum would probably need to hit $500-$600 to even remotely return to recent mining profitability numbers. So eventually one way or another the mining glory days will come to a halt, either by a sustained market downtrend or after a complete saturation of network hash-rate.

People have been saying this about Bitcoin for years now, but people still mine it for a profit.  Granted, the barrier to entry is a lot higher now, as you have to continuously purchase better and better ASICs.  But, as long as there are PoW coins, there will be miners.

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September 18, 2017, 05:26:17 AM
 #36

I think your cost for electricity is pretty cheap, here I have a friend he paid 0.12 per kw per hour, he still got some profits for gpu mining.

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September 18, 2017, 09:47:11 AM
 #37

i made the mistake of selling my gpu's the last time mining became unprofitable. then eth came out and i had to buy them all again. there will be new coins come out from time to time. keep the gpus and mine the new coins that come out and wait to see if they go like eth did

                                
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September 18, 2017, 12:34:19 PM
 #38

yes the power 0.07 $ is too expensive for KWH but you can seeking for other source would more reliable the used manufacture / government the solar option is batter one

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September 18, 2017, 01:18:52 PM
 #39

if you want to details calculate, i wouldn't advise that you can make big profit and return cash in short period
i would suggest just buy some coins and hold it for a year if you decide want to make profit simple

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September 18, 2017, 07:20:47 PM
 #40

Hi was thinking about maybe starting to mine altcoins the only problem is would you say 0.07 USD per KHw is to expensive?

Are you sure that $ 0.07 is your total electricity cost or is it your shopping price? Where I live electricity is advertised @ $ 0.079 per kilowatt but that does not include distribution, transmission and other  charges. So while it is listed @ $0.079 it is more around $0.14. That's almost double the quoted price. Just look at your power bill real close and deconstruct it with math. Otherwise you are going to be setting yourself up for a disappointment.   

 Sounds like Alliant Energy, where the "extra fees and taxes" were often a majority of my total bill.

 Nice thing about the 3 counties of Central Washington "Super Cheap Power Rate", the rates are very simple the only "extra fees" not spelled out in the BASIC RATE SCHEDUAL are the local/state sales tax, and the ALL UP price for 2 of the 3 counties for ALL service types comes to around 3 cents/kwh OR LESS (the third has 4.5 ballpark all-up cost for residential and small business).


 Solar is MORE expensive when you factor all the costs in, unless you get some HUGE government rebates on the equipment costs - and you have to tie into the electrical grid ANYWAY for when the array isn't producing full output or close, or you have to have HUGE battery banks which tend to increase your investment cost a lot AND the batteries wear out and need replacement over time.

 Wind - is similar, but is closer to being competative with normal power generation in many areas and in some high-price electric areas like in California that also have fairly high average winds (Tehachapi Pass or the Cajun Pass areas as examples) it might BE the low-cost option.

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