65 nm Chips - [BFL ACCEPTED 100% ESCROW by John K.] - Group Buy #1 - Kernel32

[Kernel32]

LAST UPDATE:
The negotiations failed miserably on one crucial aspect. Josh DID NOT allow us to TEST chips before ESCROW release.
I call this project a success on finding the most probable point of BFL selling chips. It is very much possible, they just want to get rid of third quality chips and make some money on the side. Than blame all of it on community devs.
PROJECT CLOSED. BIG THANK TO ALL INVOLVED!

65 nm efficient BFL chips Group Buy under the conditions:

- BFL delives sample chips and datasheets to board developers on time previously agreed on. (two weeks- pending)

- BFL delives ordered chips in quality and on time previously agreed on. (100 days - accepted)

- They don't get the money if they don't deliver ON TIME. (100% ESCROW by John K. - accepted)

UPDATE 1: Josh/BFL accepted our escrow offer [June 06]

STATUS: GB not open yet, Refining deal with Josh, discussing board development options with burnin, Chris/BkkCoins (Klondike), allten and other community developers


We have now three lead community developers - burnin, Chris (Klondike) and allten - considering BFL chip board. Under some conditions of course. We may have the power to make this happen. (Or not.)


Random selection of BFL chips will be put trough hash test previous to ESCROW release. My Group Buyers either get quality on time or money back from John K. I know the idea of actually recieving a BFL product seems ridiculous, but two days ago a lot of people laughed at me about 100% escrow with BFL. The approach used now is different. No upfront, no shit policy.
Remember BFL needs the community to produce a mining board or they won't sell ... a single chip.[/b]

Original message by Josh:

Butterfly Labs will begin selling bulk chips to individuals and companies starting in June, 2013. Chip delivery schedule is approximately 100 days through end packaging once your order is placed. We will be providing reference documentation, reference design/schematics, and foundry receipt/documentation.

Grade A chips have 16 engines and will do 250 MHz comfortably, equating to 4 GH/s per chip.

Chips will be graded and priced as follows:

Grade A: 16 Engines - $97/chip
Grade B: 15 Engines - $93/chip
Grade C: 14 Engines - $89/chip

Grade D: 13 Engines or less - $83/chip

Our chips will be provided in minimum lots of 100 with the following price structure:

100 - 999 chips - Regular Price
1000 - 9999 chips - 5% discount
10,000 - 99,999 chips - 10% discount
100,000 or more - 20% discount

Chip orders will require 50% down and 50% upon order delivery. Payment can be made via BTC (preferred) or bank wire.

Advantages of BFL chips:

1/2 the power usage per GH as the closest competitor
1/10th the silicon area per GH as the closest competitor (Very high performance density)
You can use off the shelf heat sinks depending on your chip layout due to FCBGA package vs custom underside heat sinks as required on some QFN packages. You don't have to design and manufacture heat sinks!
Proven design currently operating in the field and ready to go.

Funds would be probably gathered in BTC as order takes place and incrased/decrased based on BTC to dollar fluctuation before hand-to-hand payment. No cost (full refund) bailout.

Let me know what do you think. I can try to negotiate our terms of deal if there is enough willing people behind me.

EDIT 1: I described the situation and conditions to BFL sales. Awaiting reply.

Greetings Butterfly Labs,

I represent some of the BitcoinTalk.org community members willing to buy your ASIC chips. There is demand and I expect a significant order if we manage to agree on some basic business terms.

We would like you to guarantee delivery date both sites agree on. 100 days for example with a small reserve for unexpected events. To make sure no other delays occur, John K. is willing to 100% escrow the transaction.

You can present your attitude to such conditions and propose your own to the community as email reply or directly by posting in the BFL Chips Group Buy Thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=223571

Thank you very much,
Kernel32
BitcoinTalk.org community member

EDIT 2: Josh/BFL agreed.

EDIT 3: Awaiting another reply to following proposal:

Hi Josh,

Thank you for your answer.

John K. already expressed his good will to do the escrow.

Where I can't get you any hard number on how many chips we will buy, it's certain that the community is willing to invest a lot in this.

To get the most interesting deal possible and all of the potential/undecided costumers involved, you could give them some guarantees, that way they can put any doubts behind. Could we agree on random chip selection hash test attended by our representative before escrow release? Community based board development is also a very good motivation. Are you able to arrange sample chips (even with only some cores working) and chip documentation delivery to (2-3) community lead developers in let's say two weeks?

As the the number of chips could be pretty high, let me please know what proportions of grade A, B, C .. chips are most beneficial for your company.

Thank you Josh,
Kernel32
BitcoinTalk.org community member

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[loshia]

No No and No

Come on dude are you joking?  BFL is joke that is all. I will trow my money in garbage but i will never buy a nut from BFL even it is in stock and it ships on next day

That is my opinion

Best luck to all of BFL customers though

[Kernel32]

No No and No

Come on dude are you joking?  BFL is joke that is all. I will trow my money in garbage but i will never buy a nut from BFL

That is my opinion

Best luck to all of BFL customers though

You are very right, that's why I intend to use money as leverage and don't give them a penny on preorder. (Other people did >> Horrible failure)

They could accept this if they are in need of money and board manufacturing is the real bottleneck.

[loshia]

No No and No

Come on dude are you joking?  BFL is joke that is all. I will trow my money in garbage but i will never buy a nut from BFL

That is my opinion

Best luck to all of BFL customers though

You are very right, that's why I'm intending to use money as leverage and don't give them a penny on preorder. (As other people did.)

They could accept this if they are in need of money and board manufacturing is the bottleneck.

Dude,

They do not have a working (shipped) product yet. what chips are they selling? I do think that there are a lot of crazy people who will trow again millions on that venture and it will be about time for BFL to disappear completely and forever!

[jspielberg]

I guess I don't understand how this would work...

You would collect the full chip cost and pay BFL half (since they need 1/2 up front for an order), and  the remaining half would be in escrow?
Then if they don't deliver in 100 days... the 1/2 that is in escrow will be returned to the people in the group buy?

Or are you saying you would wait for other people's orders to ship in 100 days... and then if they do... then you will put in a full order so you would be 200 days out (Dec. 19th)?

I must be missing something as neither of those sounds that appealing

[Kernel32]

You would collect the full chip cost and pay BFL half (since they need 1/2 up front for an order), and  the remaining half would be in escrow?

No, giving money to BFL is same as throwing them away. Full hand-to-hand business is the only way with BFL. No upfront.

We are not sheep, we are the costumers and we make the rules. That's economy 101.

[Kernel32]

BFL don't make chips as far as i know. So what are you looking to buy from them?

They announced chip sales. https://forums.butterflylabs.com/announcements/3014-butterfly-labs-announces-bulk-chip-sales.html

i wouldnt trust them for a dime.

I wouldn't either.

[jspielberg]

You would collect the full chip cost and pay BFL half (since they need 1/2 up front for an order), and  the remaining half would be in escrow?

No, giving money to BFL is same as throwing them away. Full hand-to-hand business is the only way with BFL. No upfront.

We are not sheep, we are the costumers and we make the rules. That's economy 101.

I guess this hypothetical is really geared to ask BFL... They have stated that the terms of the chip purchase is 1/2 up front.

Best to ask on the BFL forum rather than here.  My guess is that they won't be interested in your offer.

My guess is that this line of investigation is a big waste of time (like most BFL threads/discussions).

[Kernel32]

I guess this hypothetical is really geared to ask BFL... They have stated that the terms of the chip purchase is 1/2 up front.

Best to ask on the BFL forum rather than here.  My guess is that they won't be interested in your offer.

My guess is that this line of investigation is a big waste of time (like most BFL threads/discussions).

You are possibly (90%) right. But it is worth a shot.

If there will be people throwing money at them, it is hopeless (100%) .

[driksson]

if chips is what you want, look for avalon group buys, there's a few already shipped here on the forum.
They have at least delivered in the past, and seems to be trusted. (around 300mhash per chip, and 16 chips per board).

[Bitcoinorama]

if chips is what you want, look for avalon group buys, there's a few already shipped here on the forum.
They have at least delivered in the past, and seems to be trusted. (around 300mhash per chip, and 16 chips per board).

None have shipped, as of last week all monies were still sitting in Bitsyncom's chip buying wallet = ~ 760,000 Avalon chips at Bitsyncom's pricing.

[Kernel32]

if chips is what you want, look for avalon group buys, there's a few already shipped here on the forum.
They have at least delivered in the past, and seems to be trusted. (around 300mhash per chip, and 16 chips per board).

Check. I'm going for Burnin's 20 boards.

I described the situation and conditions to BFL sales. Awaiting reply.

[driksson]

if chips is what you want, look for avalon group buys, there's a few already shipped here on the forum.
They have at least delivered in the past, and seems to be trusted. (around 300mhash per chip, and 16 chips per board).

None have shipped, as of last week all monies were still sitting in Bitsyncom's chip buying wallet = ~ 760,000 Avalon chips at Bitsyncom's pricing.

aha. thanks. but BFL selling chips at this stage, potentially providing more difficulty ahead of people ordering products a year ago is horrible.
I doubt they will send a single chip. And do they really do their own?

[Zubilica]

    

Re: BFL Group Buy[ANY GRADE]
Today at 04:04:57 AM
   
Reply with quote  #12
Just FYI, I'm still skeptical of whether I should escrow BFL chip group buys. :/ I would prefer that the chips were somewhat more confirmed before even starting this as given their track record, 100 days could easily turn into 1000 days... (and I'll need to hold the coins for god knows how long Shocked)

John (John K.)

This

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=223005.msg2345713#msg2345713

If there is a change of heart from John K. i may throw a few satoshi.

[Kernel32]

.......
I doubt they will send a single chip. And do they really do their own?

They outsource for sure, but there is most likely a contract that would prevent us to go straight to source.

   

Re: BFL Group Buy[ANY GRADE]
Today at 04:04:57 AM
   
....100 days could easily turn into 1000 days....

John (John K.)

They don't deliver in  <= 100 days - deal is off, good bye. That's the only way with them. No eternal waiting and crappile of excuses.

According to what we know, they have the chips (and possibility to order them as they go), but have problems manufacturing the boards.

[Bitcoinorama]

.......
I doubt they will send a single chip. And do they really do their own?

They outsource for sure, but there is most likely a contract that would prevent us to go straight to source.

   

Re: BFL Group Buy[ANY GRADE]
Today at 04:04:57 AM
   
....100 days could easily turn into 1000 days....

John (John K.)

They don't deliver in  <= 100 days - deal is off, good bye. That's the only way with them. No eternal waiting and crappile of excuses.

According to what we know, they have the chips, but have problems manufacturing the boards.

You know if John K chooses to honour such purchases from BFL they could be dead in the water. They need community assistance on this.

I can't see them convincing DIYers any other way, aside direct credit card payment.

[Kernel32]

You know if John K chooses to honour such purchases from BFL they could be dead in the water. They need community assistance on this.

I can't see them convincing DIYers any other way, aside direct credit card payment.

John K's escrow would be the optimal way to go. If BFL don't accept, the fish stinks and we know what's going on (again  ).

I don't want to bother John too much just yet. We'll see what the BFL reply will be. If any. 

[megvon]

another butterfly scheme, orders not deliver but want to sell chip

[Bicknellski]

Scam. More money for BFL and 0 delivery... one more person to ignore and one more thread to ignore.

[whisper]

I thing First they must fill all orders and after selling chips! This is not fair, this is not right...