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Author Topic: Bitcoin Is Useless Because It's Too Easy Too Get Robbed  (Read 5059 times)
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June 25, 2011, 08:51:55 PM
 #41

Any trading / bitcoin commerce site need to have a reputation system. That is how ebay solved the problem once and for all.

What I feel lacking and to be urgently developed at the moment is:

1) a client for mobile phones;

2) an optional encryption and redundant backup of your wallet somewhere in the cloud.

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June 25, 2011, 08:55:36 PM
 #42

Actually you can get robbed also using paypal ? And all other payment methods. Ok paypal can refound you taking the money from the account that robbed you , but do you think that after taking your money , the thief will leave the money in his account just for paypal to return them back to you ??
That's why there is reputation on ebay , because also using paypal you are not sure to receive what you buy.
There is also the possibility to be robbed when using cash actually.
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June 25, 2011, 08:56:41 PM
 #43

+1
#bitcoin-otc is pretty much the de facto standard way of seeing if someone is trustworthy around here.

Yeah, that's a nice system. Not perfect, but it's a step in the right direction.
Thanks

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June 25, 2011, 08:59:37 PM
 #44

The nearest thing to a resolution offered so far is the "web of trust", offered by a more constructive poster than yourself earlier in this thread.

It isn't that much different from "real-world". There are tons of services where you pay in advance because you trust the other party as you know that it would hurt their reputation too much too just walk away with the customer's money.

This works even better in case of a repeated contract: For example if an online service with a subscription of 3$/month suddenly stops giving value for your money, you just stop renewing and they loose a customer. You know that, they know that, they know that you know it... etc ad infinitum. And things keep going smoothly.

I am not saying that what I wrote solves all the problems (one-time contracts such as ebay is a different story), but this argument itself does not prove that bitcoins are worthless.
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June 25, 2011, 09:06:28 PM
 #45

The nearest thing to a resolution offered so far is the "web of trust", offered by a more constructive poster than yourself earlier in this thread.

It isn't that much different from "real-world". There are tons of services where you pay in advance because you trust the other party as you know that it would hurt their reputation too much too just walk away with the customer's money.

This works even better in case of a repeated contract: For example if an online service with a subscription of 3$/month suddenly stops giving value for your money, you just stop renewing and they loose a customer. You know that, they know that, they know that you know it... etc ad infinitum. And things keep going smoothly.

I am not saying that what I wrote solves all the problems (one-time contracts such as ebay is a different story), but this argument itself does not prove that bitcoins are worthless.

Yeah, but a key element to Bitcoin is anonymity. Building trust with an anonymous counterparty is tricky.
The "web of trust" seems to address this quite well and also remain decentralised and hence outside easy regulation/control.

But I suspect it is still subject to subversion and this is the danger.

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June 25, 2011, 09:09:03 PM
 #46

No one yet has answered this problem: Its too easy to get robbed. You send someone some bitcoins and they can just walk! It's just like posting cash to a stranger, totally stupid.
No-one posts cash to stranger, so no-one will send bitcoins! It's obvious!

In a face to face transaction, use cash - cus its anonymous.
In an internet transaction, use Paypal etc, cuz its the only way not to get robbed.

Add escrow to bitcoin and you've gained nothing now. The whole project is totally pointless!

Why can no-one give me a robust resolution. By robust, I mean not some juvenile, hand waving gibberish arguement.

If you get robbed 1% of the time then charge 1% more to do a transaction with BTC. That way, you spread the risk around and come out even in the long run.

Well then that kind of goes against the whole "bitcoin is supposed to be cheaper" than paypal or whatever the heck. If people are going to price in high risk BTC will become a high risk currency and thus be more expensive to transact with - for the long term.


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June 25, 2011, 09:13:19 PM
 #47


Sorry, buddy, you continue to mark yourself as a dickbag. Escrow is obvious, but it introduces the problem of a third party. This is a fundamental flaw as any conventional escrow would be subject to regulation. Escrow makes Bitcoin no different to a bank or paypal transaction. As such, Bitcoin is just a geeky reinvention of the wheel.

The nearest thing to a resolution offered so far is the "web of trust", offered by a more constructive poster than yourself earlier in this thread.

But remember, if Bitcoin goes mainstream gangs of very smart people will be looking to attack it.


I don't mind if you think bitcoin is useless, because there is a disproportionate number who think it isn't. Nothing you've suggested is new, novel, or any kind of 'final solution'. So feel free to sit at the sidelines and pick nits out of your fur, leave the trading to the adults.

fortitudinem multis - catenum regit omnia
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June 25, 2011, 09:14:16 PM
 #48

Yeah, but a key element to Bitcoin is anonymity.

Is it? No one is preventing you from disclosing your identity. And the system isn't relying on anonymity, the cryptographic mathemagics works anyway. Remaining anonymous is just an option.
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June 25, 2011, 09:42:51 PM
 #49

Yeah, but a key element to Bitcoin is anonymity.

Is it? No one is preventing you from disclosing your identity.

everyone knows that. the issue for trade is that a bank account (or paypal, ...) IS identification.

I'm batman and 13GuHYTANS5H7Zerp9zcEjJpBaYzBwuP1k is my address, please pay and don't worry, in case something goes wrong just come to my cave and sue me.
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June 25, 2011, 10:41:59 PM
 #50

This is the fundamental problem with the currency and why I am expecting a near-term price of between $7-$9.
why not <$1 then?

I said near-term.  The market is so infantile and speculative that it's going to remain above its fundamental price for quite some time.
Please excuse my ignorace, but how do you determine this 'fundamental' price?  got any formula to share?

Look into asset pricing models.

stop bullshitting.  you have no idea.

Since you don't want to do research: R = Rf + B(Rm - Rf)

go from there...

Could you please fill in the numbers so we can clearly see BTC price = $7-9
Thanks

No because this will give you the % expected return and then you use that in a discounted cash flow model to get the price.

That's a pretty poor excuse. Your original theory is flawed anyway, because there's no reason it should settle in any particular place. It could settle at 20, 10, 1000, we'd just use different amounts of bitcoin for our normal transactions. The decimal point can shift.

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June 25, 2011, 11:45:22 PM
 #51

Bitcoin isn't useless as long as idiots speculators are willing to trade currency for more bitcoins.

I predict a massive collapse in bitcoin valuation in the next couple of months as (1) mining costs far more than bitcoins can be redeemed for on the market and (2) fresh speculator blood dries up, since the bitcoin market is nearing speculator saturation.

I still plan on using bitcoin 'for fun' with my friends (we'll probably generate our own blockchain though).
Vince Torres
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June 25, 2011, 11:51:15 PM
 #52



Using paypal is the only way TO get robbed.
+1

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June 26, 2011, 02:27:59 AM
 #53

Bitcoin isn't useless as long as idiots speculators are willing to trade currency for more bitcoins.

I predict a massive collapse in bitcoin valuation in the next couple of months as (1) mining costs far more than bitcoins can be redeemed for on the market and (2) fresh speculator blood dries up, since the bitcoin market is nearing speculator saturation.

I still plan on using bitcoin 'for fun' with my friends (we'll probably generate our own blockchain though).

I predict a long thread a couple months from now full of old "bitcoin is on its death bed" quotes, after (yet another) massive increase in bitcoin valuation.

We can accept that speculators may be fools.  But do we really want to bet that there aren't enough fools in the world to go around?  Please, the market is a long, long way from running out of fools (or foolish money, as it were).

Nifty idea to generate your own blockchain among friends for fun.  Don't be surprised when they switch to another for profit.

College of Bucking Bulls Knowledge
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June 26, 2011, 02:49:24 AM
 #54

This is the fundamental problem with the currency and why I am expecting a near-term price of between $7-$9.

so you obviously don't believe in efficient markets?
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June 26, 2011, 02:51:24 AM
 #55

well, let me just say that I made more than 200 bitcoin transactions with people I don't know, and I never was robbed

I suppose you could publish your list of trusted addys to the community. That might be an approach to the problem, I suppose?

Also, remember the people using bitcoins right now generally believe in the project and want it to succeed. You know nice guys. So I suspect fraud would increase with general usage, as the masses get involved.

I expect that the more BTC is stolen, the more concentrated it will become in the accounts of thieves.
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June 26, 2011, 02:55:31 AM
 #56

I am offering Bitcoin paper wallets at http://www.casascius.com meant as a remedy to help people not get robbed.

I realize the "why should I trust you" factor is involved - that's not my point - I'm not asking you to buy one.  But part of my desire to produce them is to make Bitcoin useful to more people.  A paper wallet can be managed without technical expertise without risk of being compromised - the only point of trust required is in the person producing the paper wallet.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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June 26, 2011, 04:03:20 AM
 #57

I am offering Bitcoin paper wallets at http://www.casascius.com meant as a remedy to help people not get robbed.

I realize the "why should I trust you" factor is involved - that's not my point - I'm not asking you to buy one.  But part of my desire to produce them is to make Bitcoin useful to more people.  A paper wallet can be managed without technical expertise without risk of being compromised - the only point of trust required is in the person producing the paper wallet.

Maybe you can sell easy to understand guides and/or custom software so regular Joes can do this? Just a suggestion.

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