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Author Topic: How's Lighting Network gonna be implemented on Bitcoin? Do you approve it?  (Read 870 times)
rique888
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October 14, 2017, 10:32:11 AM
 #1

Hello, i've been looking around Lighting Network, and that seems to be a trusted third-party payment system. Doesn't that gonna against Bitcoin ideal?

That was activated in Litecoin and doesn't seems that affected prices.

Does Segwit have been Implemented to run Lighting Network, or it really have a big role in the Bitcoin Scalling?
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October 14, 2017, 11:29:27 AM
 #2

Hello, i've been looking around Lighting Network, and that seems to be a trusted third-party payment system. Doesn't that gonna against Bitcoin ideal?

No. Lighting Network requires no trust. If it did then people would just use online wallets instead or just old fashioned banks. It 100% relies on blockchain for it's security and is more complicated then that. You can read more about it here https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/understanding-the-lightning-network-part-building-a-bidirectional-payment-channel-1464710791/

It is pretty smart technology on it's own, people just assume that blockchain itself is as much as we can come up with and assume it is some kind of a known technology. It is new and different, not as big as blockchain itself of course, but it is still something different and very useful.

That was activated in Litecoin and doesn't seems that affected prices.

First of all, we use Bitcoin because it is useful. not for it's price. Secondly, Litecoin doesn't benefit as much from LN as Bitcoin, since it was already designed as a faster version of Bitcoin, but not as secure. LN allows for a possibility of secure 0-confirmation transactions (by bundling them together and then getting them confirmed).

Does Segwit have been Implemented to run Lighting Network, or it really have a big role in the Bitcoin Scalling?

No. Segwit is useful on it's own for multiple reasons. Bitcoin Core devs are really picky and careful, it wouldn't be a solution if it wasn't a clear non-compromising benefit. But obviously Lightning Network was considered, as it has clear benefits.

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rique888
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October 14, 2017, 11:52:10 PM
 #3

Thank you very much for the information, dude!
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October 15, 2017, 01:15:48 AM
 #4

The biggest concern that I've heard, is that Lightning Network could become effectively centralized in the hands of whales that control the biggest hubs in which most transactions would occur.

Since im not a programmer, I don't really understand if this is FUD or a valid concern, and im still yet undecided about it. I've heard reputable people defending LN and i've heard other pretty smart people criticizing it. As a non programmer it's hard to know who is FUDding and who is being genuine.
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October 15, 2017, 06:19:15 AM
 #5

The biggest concern that I've heard, is that Lightning Network could become effectively centralized in the hands of whales that control the biggest hubs in which most transactions would occur.

That's the point, the decentralization must be centralized now? Another FUD that I wanna understand is the 2x segwit HF. Can it be some kind of corporate takeover? IF yes, how that's will occur?

For the time being, Segwit 2x did not reach the minimum support needed to be implemented. There's "35 in support, 9 ready, and 37 in opposition" according to https://coin.dance/poli
But according to https://blockchain.info/charts/ there's 85% of the Hashrate signalling for the New York Agreement over the last 200 blocks at this time. So if everything stays the same, would we have another altcoin on november 1, and the Bitcoin code stays the same with only segwit activated.
I think that for scalability in the medium term the activation of the HF to increase the block size will be necessary in any way. Unless solutions such as LN prove to be efficient, decentralized, and secure enough to make bitcoin technology process payments faster. What do you think is the best scalability solution for Bitcoin? How can Bitcoin reach VISA and Master Card capacity?
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October 15, 2017, 09:06:45 AM
 #6

Once you have the high capital hubs, then you can start fractional reserve banking. It's only a matter of time.
This is why the bankers and all the CEOs want this so bad. Lightning will be a middle-step to getting people off-chain and then other centralized hubs will spring up that aren't related to on-chain transactions except that you just deposit funds in them like you would an exchange. To the end-user they would be convenient and better than lightning.

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October 15, 2017, 09:26:09 AM
 #7

The biggest concern that I've heard, is that Lightning Network could become effectively centralized in the hands of whales that control the biggest hubs in which most transactions would occur.

Since im not a programmer, I don't really understand if this is FUD or a valid concern, and im still yet undecided about it. I've heard reputable people defending LN and i've heard other pretty smart people criticizing it. As a non programmer it's hard to know who is FUDding and who is being genuine.

LN is by design decentralized, however there is no guarantee that it will stay that way. Just like you can have centralized mining pools in Bitcoin and big websites like Google and Facebook on the Internet, it doesn't mean that it is centralized. Not by design at least, but people can always centralize it by only using few hubs.

The bottom line is that it is second layer and is optional, now what will users make of it is another story, just like mining.

The biggest concern that I've heard, is that Lightning Network could become effectively centralized in the hands of whales that control the biggest hubs in which most transactions would occur.

That's the point, the decentralization must be centralized now? Another FUD that I wanna understand is the 2x segwit HF. Can it be some kind of corporate takeover? IF yes, how that's will occur?

For the time being, Segwit 2x did not reach the minimum support needed to be implemented. There's "35 in support, 9 ready, and 37 in opposition" according to https://coin.dance/poli
But according to https://blockchain.info/charts/ there's 85% of the Hashrate signalling for the New York Agreement over the last 200 blocks at this time. So if everything stays the same, would we have another altcoin on november 1, and the Bitcoin code stays the same with only segwit activated.
I think that for scalability in the medium term the activation of the HF to increase the block size will be necessary in any way. Unless solutions such as LN prove to be efficient, decentralized, and secure enough to make bitcoin technology process payments faster. What do you think is the best scalability solution for Bitcoin? How can Bitcoin reach VISA and Master Card capacity?

It can't really be a corporate takeover directly, it is just another coin that is decentralized by design. Now it might force users to use clients that are developed by companies and not Core, it might have even more centralization with the mining power, but none of that is by design. Ultimately it is always up to the users.

S2X has enough mining power to happen,  but it has really small user support. We will have to wait and see what happens. I think we should wait and see how LN works out in practice and if the increase in block size is necessary and we have no other decent SF solutions, then we should HF. S2X is simply rushed to much.

Once you have the high capital hubs, then you can start fractional reserve banking. It's only a matter of time.
This is why the bankers and all the CEOs want this so bad. Lightning will be a middle-step to getting people off-chain and then other centralized hubs will spring up that aren't related to on-chain transactions except that you just deposit funds in them like you would an exchange. To the end-user they would be convenient and better than lightning.

Fractional reserve banking is technically impossible in the LN, as you can always spend your funds in it. What happens is that you open a channel that you can close safely anytime on the Bitcoin blockchain with your current balance. You can read more about it in this 3 part article https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/understanding-the-lightning-network-part-building-a-bidirectional-payment-channel-1464710791/ . It really isn't centralized nor does anyone hold your bitcoins, it uses blockchain to insure it's safety, it is just that it minimizes the amount of necessary transactions needed on the blockchain, that is all.

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October 15, 2017, 01:07:06 PM
 #8

Here's something that I can't quite believe I've only just thought of:


What's stopping Lightning users from opening a channel where they (the user) are the owner of both of the multi-sig addresses that constitute the channel?

Answer: nothing.



And that's pretty powerful really, and makes a nonsense of the whole "centralising hubs" or the "subscription payments only" criticisms. Anyone can open a channel and use that as their on-ramp to the Lightning network, without having to involve a 3rd party, or open separate channels with everyone they do business with.



Any drawbacks to this that anyone can think of?

Vires in numeris
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October 15, 2017, 06:52:27 PM
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It will be huge. Is soft-fork needed to activate LN ? After that bitcoin could compete with visa/mastercard
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October 15, 2017, 10:03:35 PM
 #10

Here's something that I can't quite believe I've only just thought of:


What's stopping Lightning users from opening a channel where they (the user) are the owner of both of the multi-sig addresses that constitute the channel?

Answer: nothing.



And that's pretty powerful really, and makes a nonsense of the whole "centralising hubs" or the "subscription payments only" criticisms. Anyone can open a channel and use that as their on-ramp to the Lightning network, without having to involve a 3rd party, or open separate channels with everyone they do business with.



Any drawbacks to this that anyone can think of?

Dude, this is why it is called Lighning Network. Because you don't need to open a channel with everyone, or just one big hub. It is a transitive property. If you have a channel in common, that is all that is needed. This is the big innovation of it. You can just open a channel with one of your friends and they will have it with someone else and so on. Even if you do open a channel with a hub, you will still have a channel within the circle of your friends and work and so on. They can all make one network with many connection to it. It will be more decentralized then Internet itself.

It will be huge. Is soft-fork needed to activate LN ? After that bitcoin could compete with visa/mastercard

Soft-fork is not needed to activate LN. Segwit soft-fork already happened, but even that wasn't needed, to my knowledge, it was just useful as it was useful for many other second layer technologies, as it fixed the transaction malleability bug.

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rique888
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October 17, 2017, 07:48:07 PM
 #11

Guys, any news from the development from LN on bitcoin? Does Core need to upgrade to a version able to use LN? How can I use it when that begin?

cheers
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October 17, 2017, 08:22:47 PM
 #12

Here's something that I can't quite believe I've only just thought of:


What's stopping Lightning users from opening a channel where they (the user) are the owner of both of the multi-sig addresses that constitute the channel?

Answer: nothing.



And that's pretty powerful really, and makes a nonsense of the whole "centralising hubs" or the "subscription payments only" criticisms. Anyone can open a channel and use that as their on-ramp to the Lightning network, without having to involve a 3rd party, or open separate channels with everyone they do business with.



Any drawbacks to this that anyone can think of?

Dude, this is why it is called Lighning Network. Because you don't need to open a channel with everyone, or just one big hub. It is a transitive property. If you have a channel in common, that is all that is needed. This is the big innovation of it. You can just open a channel with one of your friends and they will have it with someone else and so on. Even if you do open a channel with a hub, you will still have a channel within the circle of your friends and work and so on. They can all make one network with many connection to it. It will be more decentralized then Internet itself.

It will be huge. Is soft-fork needed to activate LN ? After that bitcoin could compete with visa/mastercard

Soft-fork is not needed to activate LN. Segwit soft-fork already happened, but even that wasn't needed, to my knowledge, it was just useful as it was useful for many other second layer technologies, as it fixed the transaction malleability bug.
Right now lighting network theoretically can be delopoyed since the of segwit. We should propabbly wait till after the whole 2x drama before we continue though.
On the hubs though, I also read that you would be able to access someone through someone else's channel. That makes it pretty freaking special. If we are able to perfect it and make it quite user-friendly we've got a banger.
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October 17, 2017, 09:49:04 PM
 #13

Here's something that I can't quite believe I've only just thought of:


What's stopping Lightning users from opening a channel where they (the user) are the owner of both of the multi-sig addresses that constitute the channel?

Answer: nothing.



And that's pretty powerful really, and makes a nonsense of the whole "centralising hubs" or the "subscription payments only" criticisms. Anyone can open a channel and use that as their on-ramp to the Lightning network, without having to involve a 3rd party, or open separate channels with everyone they do business with.

Any drawbacks to this that anyone can think of?

Dude, this is why it is called Lighning Network. Because you don't need to open a channel with everyone, or just one big hub. It is a transitive property. If you have a channel in common, that is all that is needed. This is the big innovation of it. You can just open a channel with one of your friends and they will have it with someone else and so on. Even if you do open a channel with a hub, you will still have a channel within the circle of your friends and work and so on. They can all make one network with many connection to it. It will be more decentralized then Internet itself.

It will be huge. Is soft-fork needed to activate LN ? After that bitcoin could compete with visa/mastercard

Soft-fork is not needed to activate LN. Segwit soft-fork already happened, but even that wasn't needed, to my knowledge, it was just useful as it was useful for many other second layer technologies, as it fixed the transaction malleability bug.
Right now lighting network theoretically can be delopoyed since the of segwit. We should propabbly wait till after the whole 2x drama before we continue though.
On the hubs though, I also read that you would be able to access someone through someone else's channel. That makes it pretty freaking special. If we are able to perfect it and make it quite user-friendly we've got a banger.

How the LN will be deployed? Will there be an Flag Day for that or that can be anyday after 2x drama?
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October 17, 2017, 10:33:33 PM
 #14

The biggest risk with the Lightning Network is that it's less tried and tested in the world although its been tested heavily on test nets. Its should be fine but it won't be until its in the wild and moving large amounts of money around that it'll draw the more interesting attention who will make it prove its worth.

Litecoin has been a huge benefit though, there's no reason to think the implementation on Bitcoin will be less effective.
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October 18, 2017, 11:28:33 AM
 #15

How the LN will be deployed? Will there be an Flag Day for that or that can be anyday after 2x drama?

It's do-able now, theoretically. All that's holding it back is the immaturity of the Lightning wallet software, and the revisions to the specification for Lightning as a protocol.

Once it starts it's gonna be quite noticeable, I expect alot of pressure to gradually get taken off the blockchain, just as the Segwit blocksize increase has panned out since it was activated.

Vires in numeris
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October 18, 2017, 02:09:03 PM
 #16

How the LN will be deployed? Will there be an Flag Day for that or that can be anyday after 2x drama?
The Lightning Network can be deployed now at any time. There is no need for a flag day or any sort of signaling because it is not a fork of any kind. The additions to the consensus rules that make implementing LN easier have already been put in place (CSV and Segwit). All that needs to happen now is for the software to be written and finalized for LN to be deployed. There currently exists software for the testnet.

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October 19, 2017, 06:04:01 AM
 #17

I think the fact that you do not have to constantly scale with Block size increases, will make scaling on Bitcoin open-ended. The scaling will be constant and a non-issue, once the Lightning Network is implemented. We will also avoid these stupid Hard forks to upgrade Block sizes and to create free coins in some competing chain.

Let the Bitcoin Cash and Bitcoin Gold and SegWit2x people fork off and do their own thing and see if they can keep up with the scaling solution that are brought to Bitcoin by the Lightning Network. ^smile^

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