Send all the libertarians to prison and beat it out of them.

[Sjalq]

After reading about what happened to Bernard von NotHaus, I think the government is going to label all libertarian minded people "global anarchist terrorists bent on sending the world into chaos"

Gavin Andreson will be rounded up, tortured in some 3rd world country and will end up in Gitmo. Whether he's libertarian or not will not matter, clearly he's responsible. Satoshi will move to the federal government's no.1 most wanted and ten years after that they'll kill some poor Japanese American IT professional and proclaim "victory!".

Give me any reason these socio-paths we've elected won't do this as they worsen everyone's economic situation?

[1713943212]

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[1713943212]

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[westkybitcoins]

After reading about what happened to Bernard von NotHaus, I think the government is going to label all libertarian minded people "global anarchist terrorists bent on sending the world into chaos"

Gavin Andreson will be rounded up, tortured in some 3rd world country and will end up in Gitmo. Whether he's libertarian or not will not matter, clearly he's responsible. Satoshi will move to the federal government's no.1 most wanted and ten years after that they'll kill some poor Japanese American IT professional and proclaim "victory!".

Give me any reason these socio-paths we've elected won't do this as they worsen everyone's economic situation?

You might be surprised how many people actually wouldn't have a problem with "beating it out of them."

[hugolp]

No, it wont happen. The political system would loose legitimacy in the eye of a lot of people, and they need all the fools believing in "the best interest of the nation", the "greater good" and "I do it for your well being" to stay in power.

This is why de-centrallization is so important. They can easily streak down one central point, but they really can not go against everybody.

[zaphod]

Give me any reason these socio-paths we've elected won't do this as they worsen everyone's economic situation?

Because they don't really care about this?

[Sjalq]

Give me any reason these socio-paths we've elected won't do this as they worsen everyone's economic situation?

Because they don't really care about this?

Bernard von NotHaus was arrested for running an operation much, much smaller than Bitcoin is becoming.

[killer2021]

No, it wont happen. The political system would loose legitimacy in the eye of a lot of people, and they need all the fools believing in "the best interest of the nation", the "greater good" and "I do it for your well being" to stay in power.

This is why de-centrallization is so important. They can easily streak down one central point, but they really can not go against everybody.

You have to understand the government though. They use propaganda to push their agenda. Why do you think the mainstream media demonizes Islamic culture? They do that because it makes people feel less empathetic towards the innocent people who get killed in a bomb attack or raid etc.

It could happen.

Just look at what they did to assange. They couldn't get him on traditional charges so they do other things to try and trap him. Isn't it kind of ironic that shortly after the leaks some random ass lady shows up and files rape charges? If he ever went to trial they will just make up fake evidence to find him guilty.

What they will do is demonize bitcoin. They are already doing this. Note how the politicians and media constantly note that bitcoin is being used for drugs and gambling? Why do you think that is? Its designed to make bitcoin sound like some shady criminal system. Even though the vast majority of people don't use bitcoin for illegal activities.

If they do make arrests the media will spin it so it sounds like the people they arrest are drug dealing, money laundering criminals.

You have to understand that Americans aren't exactly the sharpest tools in the shed. They are EASILY manipulated by the main stream media.

[Anonymous]

The government will do whatever the corporations tell it to do. They are ultimately what politicians represent nowadays.

[zaphod]

Give me any reason these socio-paths we've elected won't do this as they worsen everyone's economic situation?

Because they don't really care about this?

Bernard von NotHaus was arrested for running an operation much, much smaller than Bitcoin is becoming.

Liberty Dollar != Bitcoin

Bernard von NotHaus was arrested because he was stupid, not because he was libertarian.

[killer2021]

Give me any reason these socio-paths we've elected won't do this as they worsen everyone's economic situation?

Because they don't really care about this?

Bernard von NotHaus was arrested for running an operation much, much smaller than Bitcoin is becoming.

Yes good for pointing this out. Bitcoin is basically the exact same thing as liberty dollar - an alternate currency and medium of exchange.

Also take note at the wikipedia entry on him.

Bernard von NotHaus is the creator of the Liberty Dollar and co-founder of the Royal Hawaiian Mint Company.[1] He created the Free Marijuana Church of Honolulu.[2] Von NotHaus was labeled as a domestic terrorist by the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation in 2011.[3]
According to the evidence introduced during the 2011 trial, von NotHaus was the founder of an organization called the National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve and Internal Revenue Code, commonly known as NORFED and also known as Liberty Services. NORFED’s purpose was to mix Liberty Dollars into the current money of the United States. NORFED intended for the Liberty Dollar to be used as current money in order to limit reliance on, and to compete with, United States currency.

See what they do? They labeled him as a domestic terrorist. Lets face it, this guy was no terrorist. He didn't kill anyone nor did he have any intentions of killing anyone, yet they call him a domestic terrorist.

[killer2021]

Give me any reason these socio-paths we've elected won't do this as they worsen everyone's economic situation?

Because they don't really care about this?

Bernard von NotHaus was arrested for running an operation much, much smaller than Bitcoin is becoming.

Liberty Dollar != Bitcoin

Bernard von NotHaus was arrested because he was stupid, not because he was libertarian.

Liberty dollar is not EXACTLY the same but LD and BTC are very similar in their objectives. Its an alternate currency. The feds don't care too much about alternate currencies, until they become widely used and pose a threat. Thats when they make their move.

The feds will eventually crack down on bitcoin, how successful will they be is beyond me. My guess is not very successful. In fact, when the feds do try to crackdown it will only add to the power of bitcoin since when that happens EVERYONE will know what bitcoin is. Personally I think most of the growth potential of bitcoin is going to come from outside of the us.

[zaphod]

Note how the politicians and media constantly note that bitcoin is being used for drugs and gambling? Why do you think that is? Its designed to make bitcoin sound like some shady criminal system. Even though the vast majority of people don't use bitcoin for illegal activities.

Obviously most people don't use bitcoin for drugs and gambling, most just trade it on the exchanges.  Next would probably be drugs and gambling.  Maybe after that is someone ordering a bag of chips over the internet with them?

I'm not saying it won't grow beyond this, but TODAY that's a pretty factual description.  Bitcoin desperately needs some legitimate vendors to begin accepting it...

[killer2021]

Note how the politicians and media constantly note that bitcoin is being used for drugs and gambling? Why do you think that is? Its designed to make bitcoin sound like some shady criminal system. Even though the vast majority of people don't use bitcoin for illegal activities.

Obviously most people don't use bitcoin for drugs and gambling, most just trade it on the exchanges.  Next would probably be drugs and gambling.  Maybe after that is someone ordering a bag of chips over the internet with them?

I'm not saying it won't grow beyond this, but TODAY that's a pretty factual description.  Bitcoin desperately needs some legitimate vendors to begin accepting it...

Well the average joe dumbass is reading these articles about how bitcoin is being used for drugs and gambling and then they think that 99% of bitcoin is being used for those activities when in reality its less than 1%.

Thats the problem.

[zaphod]

Give me any reason these socio-paths we've elected won't do this as they worsen everyone's economic situation?

Because they don't really care about this?

Bernard von NotHaus was arrested for running an operation much, much smaller than Bitcoin is becoming.

Liberty Dollar != Bitcoin

Bernard von NotHaus was arrested because he was stupid, not because he was libertarian.

Liberty dollar is not EXACTLY the same but LD and BTC are very similar in their objectives. Its an alternate currency. The feds don't care too much about alternate currencies, until they become widely used and pose a threat. Thats when they make their move.

The feds will eventually crack down on bitcoin, how successful will they be is beyond me. My guess is not very successful. In fact, when the feds do try to crackdown it will only add to the power of bitcoin since when that happens EVERYONE will know what bitcoin is.

If Liberty dollar coins had been purple and had a picture of chewbacca on them he never would have gone to jail.

The way the feds will crack down is through the IRS.  Any legitimate business who accepts bitcoin will have to treat it like a foreign currency from an accounting perspective.  This is a lot of extra accounting work and a reason why large businesses will not do it for some period of time.  Small businesses will also need to do their accounting correctly and pay their taxes or they will risk trouble with the IRS.  If you are a business accepting bitcoin, dot your i's and cross your t's....

[killer2021]

Give me any reason these socio-paths we've elected won't do this as they worsen everyone's economic situation?

Because they don't really care about this?

Bernard von NotHaus was arrested for running an operation much, much smaller than Bitcoin is becoming.

Liberty Dollar != Bitcoin

Bernard von NotHaus was arrested because he was stupid, not because he was libertarian.

Liberty dollar is not EXACTLY the same but LD and BTC are very similar in their objectives. Its an alternate currency. The feds don't care too much about alternate currencies, until they become widely used and pose a threat. Thats when they make their move.

The feds will eventually crack down on bitcoin, how successful will they be is beyond me. My guess is not very successful. In fact, when the feds do try to crackdown it will only add to the power of bitcoin since when that happens EVERYONE will know what bitcoin is.

If Liberty dollar coins had been purple and had a picture of chewbacca on them he never would have gone to jail.

The way the feds will crack down is through the IRS.  Any legitimate business who accepts bitcoin will have to treat it like a foreign currency from an accounting perspective.  This is a lot of extra accounting work and a reason why large businesses will not do it for some period of time.  Small businesses will also need to do their accounting correctly and pay their taxes or they will risk trouble with the IRS.  If you are a business accepting bitcoin, dot your i's and cross your t's....

Yes or do your business outside of the states.

[hugolp]

Liberty Dollar != Bitcoin

Bernard von NotHaus was arrested because he was stupid, not because he was libertarian.

He was arrested because he was running an alternative currency that was starting to take hold. Nothing else.

[kjj]

Liberty Dollar != Bitcoin

Bernard von NotHaus was arrested because he was stupid, not because he was libertarian.

He was arrested because he was running an alternative currency that was starting to take hold. Nothing else.

He was trying to get people to pass off his currency as US currency to unknowing and unwilling victims.

[FreeMoney]

Liberty Dollar != Bitcoin

Bernard von NotHaus was arrested because he was stupid, not because he was libertarian.

He was arrested because he was running an alternative currency that was starting to take hold. Nothing else.

He was trying to get people to pass off his currency as US currency to unknowing and unwilling victims.

Uh huh, it was all a big scheme to sell gold coins for a dollar. 

[hugolp]

Liberty Dollar != Bitcoin

Bernard von NotHaus was arrested because he was stupid, not because he was libertarian.

He was arrested because he was running an alternative currency that was starting to take hold. Nothing else.

He was trying to get people to pass off his currency as US currency to unknowing and unwilling victims.

This is not true. This is what the USA government accused him of. But just check the 5 dollar notes and tell me they can be confused:



And why would he want to pass something more expensive for something cheaper? It would be stupid. It was just an excuse by the USA government.

[interfect]

Liberty Dollar != Bitcoin

Bernard von NotHaus was arrested because he was stupid, not because he was libertarian.

He was arrested because he was running an alternative currency that was starting to take hold. Nothing else.

He was trying to get people to pass off his currency as US currency to unknowing and unwilling victims.

This is not true. This is what the USA government accused him of. But just check the 5 dollar notes and tell me they can be confused:



And why would he want to pass something more expensive for something cheaper? It would be stupid. It was just an excuse by the USA government.

To some extent, the counterfeiting charges were an excuse by the government to shut down something they didn't like. However, they only got them to stick because von NotHaus was issuing little official-looking pieces of paper with "American" and "Dollar" written all over them. They could easily be mistaken for something issued by the US Government, and even for US currency, if someone had never seen US currency before. Or passed of as "the new $5 bill".

Bitcoin, however, is not vulnerable in the same way that von NotHaus's scheme was. Bitcoins are not denominated in dollars, and don't look official, and in fact have no physical form, so it is next to impossible for them to be mistaken for US currency. Furthermore, as no one issues them, there is no one to charge with counterfeiting.

The US government could drum up counterfeiting charges or something in an attempt to shut down Bitcoin, but they would have a lot of trouble making them stick. If they really want to try to kill it, they'll probably have to ban it more or less explicitly, which would be hard to do without affecting MMO currencies, gift cards, and other forms of company scrip.

[KeyserSoze]

Maybe it had something more to do with the coins, which more closely resemble U.S. currency and are seen in a video being passed by the Bernmeister as "the new ten dollar coin": http://www.opencurrency.com/liberty-dollars-arrogance-ends-in-federal-guilty-verdict
...or maybe the gov't just didn't take kindly to the High Priest: http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2009/01/06/liberty-dollar-creator-seeks-greener-grass

[Goldenmaw]

Our government does not need to strike out pre-emptively at what does not represent any kind of threat; I.E. libertarians.  As long as they have a message board to mash keys in and a cold beer to sip while doing it, there is no rebellion.

[BitterTea]

Give me any reason these socio-paths we've elected won't do this as they worsen everyone's economic situation?

Assassination markets.

[Grinder]

This is not true. This is what the USA government accused him of. But just check the 5 dollar notes and tell me they can be confused:

Why do you pick the examples with the largest difference to prove your point? It proves that you have decided what you want to believe, and only look for evidence supporting it. What you should be doing is looking for evidence that disproves your own theory. If you did you would have used the most similar money, which are the coins. If you can honestly say that the most similar examples are too different to be confused you would have made a much more convincing argument.

[Anonymous]

This is not true. This is what the USA government accused him of. But just check the 5 dollar notes and tell me they can be confused:

Why do you pick the examples with the largest difference to prove your point? It proves that you have decided what you want to believe, and only look for evidence supporting it. What you should be doing is looking for evidence that disproves your own theory. If you did you would have used the most similar money, which are the coins. If you can honestly say that the most similar examples are too different to be confused you would have made a much more convincing argument.

I guess the state has a monopoly on all liberty-oriented figures now.

[asdf]

Yes or do your business outside of the states.

or do all your business in bitcoin.

[NghtRppr]

It's sad how you can start quoting things the founding fathers said or talk about the constitution and suddenly be labeled an extremist.

[Sjalq]

I guess the state has a monopoly on all liberty-oriented figures now.

LOLOL! Brilliant point!

[AbeSkray]

After reading about what happened to Bernard von NotHaus, I think the government is going to label all libertarian minded people "global anarchist terrorists bent on sending the world into chaos"

Gavin Andreson will be rounded up, tortured in some 3rd world country and will end up in Gitmo. Whether he's libertarian or not will not matter, clearly he's responsible. Satoshi will move to the federal government's no.1 most wanted and ten years after that they'll kill some poor Japanese American IT professional and proclaim "victory!".

Give me any reason these socio-paths we've elected won't do this as they worsen everyone's economic situation?

Seems like this thread is a better fit for the Politics & Society forum. Perhaps I'm missing something. Does anyone have a good reason for why this should be in the Economics forum?

[BitterTea]

It's sad how you can start quoting things the founding fathers said or talk about the constitution and suddenly be labeled an extremist.

Hey, they were pretty extremist too. Just ask the British.

[FlipPro]

lol@ the liberty dollars, not even CLOSE to what bitcoins are . Won't get into to much discussion debating silly antics. One thing I will say is, if any of these developers/public figures get arrested, the government will see the biggest mass attack in Internet history. They are messing with peoples lively hoods here, and it's not a game anymore.I can see people donating their computers even if they don't know how to hack themselves, just to contribute to the massive DDos attack that will take place,  destroying every single financial institution as we know. It will be anonymous times 10000. Don't mess with people, that are intelligent, and have many,many,many powerful computers that can readily become available if the situation called for it. No I'm not making threats, just being realistic at the massive panic/ followed by the HUGE wave of attacks on every single government run financial institution. They will loose trillions in a matter of days. Trillions.

[bitcredit]

When this does happen, I hope they torture 'Atlas' extra. 

[zaphod]

This is not true. This is what the USA government accused him of. But just check the 5 dollar notes and tell me they can be confused:

Why do you pick the examples with the largest difference to prove your point? It proves that you have decided what you want to believe, and only look for evidence supporting it. What you should be doing is looking for evidence that disproves your own theory. If you did you would have used the most similar money, which are the coins. If you can honestly say that the most similar examples are too different to be confused you would have made a much more convincing argument.

http://0.tqn.com/d/coins/1/G/p/1/-/-/american-liberty-dollar-obv.jpg

I guess the state has a monopoly on all liberty-oriented figures now.

That's exactly what got him in trouble for counterfeiting.  Too cute by a half.

http://coins.thefuntimesguide.com/images/blogs/peace-silver-dollar-obverse-2.jpg

[BitterTea]

I guess the state has a monopoly on all liberty-oriented figures now.

That's exactly what got him in trouble for counterfeiting.  Too cute by a half.

Agreed that is mighty similar, but when was the last time those were minted?

[cunicula]

When I first read the title of this post, I was like hell ya.
Then I read the contents. Sigh.

[Sjalq]

When I first read the title of this post, I was like hell ya.
Then I read the contents. Sigh.

Aah violence.
Is there no ill that more legislation, kidnapping and murder cannot fix? ;-)

[The Script]

Give me any reason these socio-paths we've elected won't do this as they worsen everyone's economic situation?

Assassination markets.

Lots of talk about these, but none in operation.

[Sjalq]

If we resort to assassination markets, are not just warring statist?

[The Script]

If we resort to assassination markets, are not just warring statist?

Can you rephrase? I don't quite understand.

[BitterTea]

If we resort to assassination markets, are not just warring statist?

Governments and the rich already have the means to assassinate people. Assassination markets would just even the playing field. IMO.

[Sjalq]

If we resort to assassination markets, are we not just warring statists?

Sorry, bad bit of writing there.

If we resort to assassination markets, are not just warring statist?

Governments and the rich already have the means to assassinate people. Assassination markets would just even the playing field. IMO.

It would even the playing field. However what will emerge as victorious will just be another beast with a "might is right" approach. If we sentence people to death then there needs to be a just justice system also. Things like 6 million dead Iraqis since 1990 might constitute such a judgement on large groups of the federal government but I'm very happy that is not my job to decide.

[compro01]

I guess the state has a monopoly on all liberty-oriented figures now.

That's exactly what got him in trouble for counterfeiting.  Too cute by a half.

Agreed that is mighty similar, but when was the last time those were minted?

1935.

a few hundred thousand were made in the 60s, but those were never released and were later melted down.

[zaphod]

http://0.tqn.com/d/coins/1/G/p/1/-/-/american-liberty-dollar-obv.jpg

I guess the state has a monopoly on all liberty-oriented figures now.

That's exactly what got him in trouble for counterfeiting.  Too cute by a half.

http://coins.thefuntimesguide.com/images/blogs/peace-silver-dollar-obverse-2.jpg

Agreed that is mighty similar, but when was the last time those were minted?

I'd have to look up the date, but the point is they're still valid currency (though the silver is worth more than a dollar).  His mistake was making something that looked like real US currency.  All he had to do was make something that looked unique and he would have been fine.

[benjamindees]

NORFED == rook sacrifice

[Fakeman]

I'd have to look up the date, but the point is they're still valid currency (though the silver is worth more than a dollar).  His mistake was making something that looked like real US currency.  All he had to do was make something that looked unique and he would have been fine.

There are also current issue US bullion coins that are based on other earlier designs, not to mention all the commemorative one-offs they come out with all the time, some of which are pretty amateurish looking IMO. It really isn't a big stretch to say that some people would mix them up with gov issued currency. On top of that the "Trust in God" paraphrase is just asking for it.

[Rage]

What they will do is demonize bitcoin. They are already doing this. Note how the politicians and media constantly note that bitcoin is being used for drugs and gambling? Why do you think that is? Its designed to make bitcoin sound like some shady criminal system. Even though the vast majority of people don't use bitcoin for illegal activities.

If they do make arrests the media will spin it so it sounds like the people they arrest are drug dealing, money laundering criminals.

All the average American needs in order to tip from 'apathetic' to 'go get those Bitcoin bastards' is to hear the government (through our phony media outlets, of course) say that they have evidence that some terrorist group is being financed using Bitcoin or they're using it to buy stuff. Make no mistake, Bitcoin presents a *much* greater threat then Julian Assange because it threatens the entire fake money system that's in place here in the USA. Get the government pissed, you might get away; get the government financiers pissed and they'll take you out quick in any way they can.

You have to understand that Americans aren't exactly the sharpest tools in the shed. They are EASILY manipulated by the main stream media.

Unfortunately, though I hate to admit it, you're right. Our country went through a whole period in the 1960's and 1970's where the mainstream news pretty much was dispatched to the networks from CIA headquarters in a giant public psyop.  It's admitted, well established, and yet the average American still doesn't believe it. Ask them and they will give you 100 reasons why having an 'independent media' is so fantastic in this country. Makes me want to f*^king vomit.

Sometimes, I hate being American. Then I remember it's not the country, it's the government that's betrayed us.

[psyborgue]

say that they have evidence that some terrorist group is being financed using Bitcoin

LulzSec

or they're using it to buy stuff.

Silk Road

Just wait.  There will be more.

[dank]

say that they have evidence that some terrorist group is being financed using Bitcoin

LulzSec

or they're using it to buy stuff.

Silk Road

Just wait.  There will be more.

I thought I read somewhere LulzSec 'quit' or something like that.  I didn't care to click the link, so I don't know.

[Atom]

Revolutions always have their martyrs, so my hope is it all falls down quietly when they're no longer able to either roll over the debt, and no revolution is required.

I am an optimist.

[myrkul]

Unfortunately, though I hate to admit it, you're right. Our country went through a whole period in the 1960's and 1970's where the mainstream news pretty much was dispatched to the networks from CIA headquarters in a giant public psyop.  It's admitted, well established, and yet the average American still doesn't believe it. Ask them and they will give you 100 reasons why having an 'independent media' is so fantastic in this country. Makes me want to f*^king vomit.

Uhm... You think that stopped? Nope. They package video and everything in their 'Press Releases' now. No work needed. just put the tape in, read the copy for the intro, and sit back. You can spot it easier if you watch different local news stations. When you see the same 'Correspondent' on three stations, that's a sure sign.

[em3rgentOrdr]

No, it wont happen. The political system would loose legitimacy in the eye of a lot of people, and they need all the fools believing in "the best interest of the nation", the "greater good" and "I do it for your well being" to stay in power.

+1. The state relies on an aura of legitimacy in order to excercise power.

This is why de-centrallization is so important. They can easily streak down one central point, but they really can not go against everybody

See my signature for the classic Satoshi quote on this matter...