[BTC-TC] Deprived Mining Speculation (DMS)

[Deprived]

I just withdrew our Coinlenders CD to the wallet with out LTC-ATF.B1 and Just-Dice cash in:

1CzJY7pVkCqDjUtycHzFgeTTbbWokqYuXo

I'll continue to list those investments in the spreadsheet (so people can verify why that wallet balance is what it is) but our only assets now are BTC and the CIPHERMINE.B1 bonds.  That means anyone who wants to can trade back PURCHASE or pairs of MINING+SELLING.  I corrected the J-D balance down by .001 as a transaction fee was taken out when I withdrew it - so the wallet balance now exactly matches the sum of those 3 entries in the report.

Here's the current asset status :

BTC Balance (BTC-TC)    714.48013888
9071 LTC-ATF.B1    90.71000000
CIPHERMINE Bonds    360.61000000
Coinlenders CD 27/9    203.64459670
Just-Dice Balance    153.86136722
TOTAL ASSETS    1,523.30610280

I can now offer redemptions for PURCHASE or pairs of (MINING+SELLING).  I CANNOT redeem unmatched MINING or SELLING.

Here's the relevant numbers:

NAV/U    0.00675889
NAV/U Excluding Ciphermine    0.00515887
Ciphermine per unit    0.16000231
Units per Ciphermine    6.24990987

Note that this is slightly different to the numbers I gave when I originally posted this proposal.  There are two differences:

1. I'll be rebuying at 100% of the cash part not 99%.
2. In my earlier post on the topic I'd used 36031 as the number of bonds when it's actually 36061.

If you send X PURCHASE (or X MINING + SELLING) then you will receive the following:

X * NAV/U Excluding Ciphermine (0.00515887)
X * Ciphermine per unit    (0.16000231) rounded DOWN

I've also shown the Units per Ciphermine (6.24990987) so you can easily see what the optimal quantities to send are - multiples of 625 mean you take no loss basically.  You can play around with those numbers and work out what's best for you - if you actually believe that degree of effort is warranted to save at most .01 BTC (by redeeming fairly optimal amounts then selling the rest into the market).

I'll accept any number of redemptions per person of 500+ PURCHASE (or pairs) and ONE redemption per person for amounts below that.

So even the smallest investments can be redeemed - but I'm not going to spend my time doing lots of tiny redemptions for people trying to arbitrage to make dust-sized profits.

Redemptions will be manual - and done occasionally.  The rates above only apply for transfers received before today's dividend - the cash portion will obviously drop after that by the amount of the dividend (as NAV/U will fall by exactly the dividend amount).

PURCHASE AND/OR pairs of MINING/SELLING should be sent to the usual account - DeprivedMining.

Obviously only send if you would prefer to cash out now than wait for a likely move to a new exchange.

[vandinn]

I am glad the CL loan worked out fine. Do you have any opinion on how the Ciphermine bond deal will work out? Is it likely to move onto a different exchange and become liquid?

I've sent you my Sellings and Minings... Thanks!

[Deprived]

I am glad the CL loan worked out fine. Do you have any opinion on how the Ciphermine bond deal will work out? Is it likely to move onto a different exchange and become liquid?

I've sent you my Sellings and Minings... Thanks!

I expect Ciphermine.B1 to either relist and become liquid or to be bought out.  But possibly not for a while - I'm aware of some discussions about its future (in addition to the public ones) but there's nothing definite yet.

Will do your cashout now - and any others that have come in.

[vandinn]

Ok, will hope for the best. I never held them for too long as I have always felt like Kate keeps making way too many mistakes for me to feel comfortable about it. Now I am stuck with over 2000 of them on a closing exchange... I wonder what "big investor" means for her, but it would take me two months to earn that much money on a regular job in my country...

[twentyseventy]

Here's the relevant numbers:

NAV/U    0.00675889
NAV/U Excluding Ciphermine    0.00515887
Ciphermine per unit    0.16000231
Units per Ciphermine    6.24990987

Note that this is slightly different to the numbers I gave when I originally posted this proposal.  There are two differences:

1. I'll be rebuying at 100% of the cash part not 99%.
2. In my earlier post on the topic I'd used 36031 as the number of bonds when it's actually 36061.

If you send X PURCHASE (or X MINING + SELLING) then you will receive the following:

X * NAV/U Excluding Ciphermine (0.00515887)
X * Ciphermine per unit    (0.16000231) rounded DOWN

I've also shown the Units per Ciphermine (6.24990987) so you can easily see what the optimal quantities to send are - multiples of 625 mean you take no loss basically.  You can play around with those numbers and work out what's best for you - if you actually believe that degree of effort is warranted to save at most .01 BTC (by redeeming fairly optimal amounts then selling the rest into the market).

I think this is supposed to be .00160002, otherwise it sounds good to me.

Edit: Received the BTC and CIPHERMINE.B1s, thanks for the quick turnaround.

[Deprived]

Here's the relevant numbers:

NAV/U    0.00675889
NAV/U Excluding Ciphermine    0.00515887
Ciphermine per unit    0.16000231
Units per Ciphermine    6.24990987

Note that this is slightly different to the numbers I gave when I originally posted this proposal.  There are two differences:

1. I'll be rebuying at 100% of the cash part not 99%.
2. In my earlier post on the topic I'd used 36031 as the number of bonds when it's actually 36061.

If you send X PURCHASE (or X MINING + SELLING) then you will receive the following:

X * NAV/U Excluding Ciphermine (0.00515887)
X * Ciphermine per unit    (0.16000231) rounded DOWN

I've also shown the Units per Ciphermine (6.24990987) so you can easily see what the optimal quantities to send are - multiples of 625 mean you take no loss basically.  You can play around with those numbers and work out what's best for you - if you actually believe that degree of effort is warranted to save at most .01 BTC (by redeeming fairly optimal amounts then selling the rest into the market).

I think this is supposed to be .00160002, otherwise it sounds good to me.

It's the number of ciphermine bonds we have for each PURCHASE (or MINING+SELLING).
You're looking at the VALUE of the ciphermine bonds - there's 100 bonds per BTC.  But it's bonds I'm sending not BTC so the number of them is what matters - and my number is the correct one.

For each PURCHASE or MINING/SELLING pair you get .16 of a ciphermine bond, which is WORTH .0016 BTC at face value.

[twentyseventy]

Here's the relevant numbers:

NAV/U    0.00675889
NAV/U Excluding Ciphermine    0.00515887
Ciphermine per unit    0.16000231
Units per Ciphermine    6.24990987

Note that this is slightly different to the numbers I gave when I originally posted this proposal.  There are two differences:

1. I'll be rebuying at 100% of the cash part not 99%.
2. In my earlier post on the topic I'd used 36031 as the number of bonds when it's actually 36061.

If you send X PURCHASE (or X MINING + SELLING) then you will receive the following:

X * NAV/U Excluding Ciphermine (0.00515887)
X * Ciphermine per unit    (0.16000231) rounded DOWN

I've also shown the Units per Ciphermine (6.24990987) so you can easily see what the optimal quantities to send are - multiples of 625 mean you take no loss basically.  You can play around with those numbers and work out what's best for you - if you actually believe that degree of effort is warranted to save at most .01 BTC (by redeeming fairly optimal amounts then selling the rest into the market).

I think this is supposed to be .00160002, otherwise it sounds good to me.

It's the number of ciphermine bonds we have for each PURCHASE (or MINING+SELLING).
You're looking at the VALUE of the ciphermine bonds - there's 100 bonds per BTC.  But it's bonds I'm sending not BTC so the number of them is what matters - and my number is the correct one.

For each PURCHASE or MINING/SELLING pair you get .16 of a ciphermine bond, which is WORTH .0016 BTC at face value.

Great, thanks for the clarification.

[Deprived]

BTC Balance (BTC-TC)   591.2501794
9071 LTC-ATF.B1    90.71000000
CIPHERMINE Bonds    322.40000000
Coinlenders CD 27/9    203.64459670
Just-Dice Balance    153.86136722
TOTAL ASSETS    1,361.86614334
   
Outstanding MINING   187094
Outstanding SELLING   187094
Outstanding PURCHASE   14397
Effective Units   201491
   
Block reward   25
Difficulty   148,819,200
Hashes per MINING   5000000
   
Daily Dividend    0.00001690
50 days (Min Liquid)    0.00084483
100 days (Forced Close)    0.00168966
365 days (Buyback)    0.00616724
405 days (IPO)    0.00684311
400 days (Post SELLING div)    0.00675862
410 days (Pre SELLING div)    0.00692759
   
NAV Post MINING Div    1,358.46163851
NAV/U Post MINING Div    0.00674205
Days Dividend Post Div   399.02
SELLING Dividend    -         
NAV Post SELLING Div    1,358.46163851
NAV/U Post Selling Div    0.00674205

----

BTC Balance (BTC-TC)   587.8449815
9071 LTC-ATF.B1    90.71000000
CIPHERMINE Bonds    322.40000000
Coinlenders CD 27/9    203.64459670
Just-Dice Balance    153.86136722
TOTAL ASSETS    1,358.46094544

NAV/U    0.00674204
NAV/U Excluding Ciphermine    0.00514197
Ciphermine per unit    0.16000715
Units per Ciphermine    6.24972084

First part is the usual report, 2nd part is the new status and new pricing for redemptions.

You'll notice a 1 satoshi difference in NAV/U between the two - that's due to the spreadsheet for the normal report working at more than 8 decimal places, so it works as though dividends were paid with a higher precision. 

[theprofileth]

Deprived how do I redeem my measly 43 shares of Purchase for said shares in Ciphermine? Do I just transfer the shares to your btctc acount? I just want to make sure I don't mess up and end up wasting more of my money.
Edit: Hmm I noticed that at the current redemption rate I would only get about 73.217 percent of my investment back. I guess I am just going to have to stick around, which in a way does make me happy as I do really like how well managed Deprived has been.

[odolvlobo]

... Hmm I noticed that at the current redemption rate I would only get about 73.217 percent of my investment back. ...

I think you forgot to include dividends in your calculation.

[Deprived]

Deprived how do I redeem my measly 43 shares of Purchase for said shares in Ciphermine? Do I just transfer the shares to your btctc acount? I just want to make sure I don't mess up and end up wasting more of my money.
Edit: Hmm I noticed that at the current redemption rate I would only get about 73.217 percent of my investment back. I guess I am just going to have to stick around, which in a way does make me happy as I do really like how well managed Deprived has been.

Even if you sold the ciphermine into bids at 80% of their face value im sure youd still get back 90%+ of your investment when you add in the dividends (which are primarily a return of capital rather than sharing of profits).  And yes youd just send them to the btctc account DeprivedMining then wait - im at the pub at moment so wont be processing any until I get home (or tomorrow morning depending how much I drink).

[Hfleer]

When will you unlock PURCHASE?

No more PURCHASE are being sold at the moment because of the BTC-TC closure.

Just found out about this recently, will have to check the relevant thread.

[Deprived]

BTC-TC is down at present (getting xcoind errors) - so dividend and report will be delayed until burnside fixes it (dividend hadn't been scheduled yet - was just about to do it - but even if it had it would fail).

I have one redemption to do before that as well (so that report is accurate).  First got the error message trying to send the BTC for that redemption - then whole site died on me.

[Deprived]

BTC Balance (BTC-TC)   570.6502294
9071 LTC-ATF.B1    90.71000000
CIPHERMINE Bonds    317.05000000
Coinlenders CD 27/9    203.64459670
Just-Dice Balance    153.86136722
TOTAL ASSETS    1,335.91619333
   
Outstanding MINING   183750
Outstanding SELLING   183750
Outstanding PURCHASE   14397
Effective Units   198147
   
Block reward   25
Difficulty   148,819,200
Hashes per MINING   5000000
   
Daily Dividend    0.00001690
50 days (Min Liquid)    0.00084483
100 days (Forced Close)    0.00168966
365 days (Buyback)    0.00616724
405 days (IPO)    0.00684311
400 days (Post SELLING div)    0.00675862
410 days (Pre SELLING div)    0.00692759
   
NAV Post MINING Div    1,332.56819060
NAV/U Post MINING Div    0.00672515
Days Dividend Post Div   398.02
SELLING Dividend    -         
NAV Post SELLING Div    1,332.56819060
NAV/U Post Selling Div    0.00672515

-----------

NAV/U    0.00672515
NAV/U Excluding Ciphermine    0.00512507
Ciphermine per unit    0.16000747
Units per Ciphermine    6.24970825

Note that there IS actually a much lower number of PURCHASE/M+S Pairs that can be redeemed with very little waste.  25 gives pretty much exactly 4 CIPHERMINE.B1 - so all multiples of 25 are as optimal as you can get below 6249.

[ebruwifxnx]

Do you mind transferring 24 shares or is that too small of an amount deprived? Thanks in advance!

[Deprived]

Do you mind transferring 24 shares or is that too small of an amount deprived? Thanks in advance!

Everyone is allowed to do 1 redemption - even if it was only 1 share of PURCHASE (or 1 each of MINING+SELLING).  So anyone who wants to cash out can.  You'd need to do the math yourself to work out if it's better just to sell into orders on the market (if you have PURCHASE the bot still runs to convert them to MINING/SELLING).

Do remember I cant't cash out unmatched MINING or SELLING (it would break there being the same number of each in circulation).

[FloatesMcgoates]

The following statement by Kate regarding Ciphermine bonds seems promising:

How come every other asset manager has come out with definitive statements as to how they will respond to the BTC-TC shutdown but you have yet to do so?

I have made statements but on CIPHERMINE's litecoin forum thread and Litecoin Global news page rather than here. I am giving a full update tomorrow along with the dividends. Unfortunately I have been extremely busy this week (I'm getting married a week today and had a board meeting and my PhD viva last week) so the announcement of closure has come at a rather bad time!

Anyway, the headline is that we shall continue to pay interest/dividends regardless.

Kate.

If her update brings more good news, do you plan on reinstating the full NAV/U*.99 option?

[Deprived]

The following statement by Kate regarding Ciphermine bonds seems promising:

How come every other asset manager has come out with definitive statements as to how they will respond to the BTC-TC shutdown but you have yet to do so?

I have made statements but on CIPHERMINE's litecoin forum thread and Litecoin Global news page rather than here. I am giving a full update tomorrow along with the dividends. Unfortunately I have been extremely busy this week (I'm getting married a week today and had a board meeting and my PhD viva last week) so the announcement of closure has come at a rather bad time!

Anyway, the headline is that we shall continue to pay interest/dividends regardless.

Kate.

If her update brings more good news, do you plan on reinstating the full NAV/U*.99 option?

Not until either:

1.  They're liquid and can be sold at face value.
2.  They form less than ~18% of total capital : which can only happen if/when we relist and get new sales.
3.  A very convincing guarantee of imminent liquidity is provided.

At present they're slightly over 20% which is fine by what was agreed but will cease to be fine after the next SELLING dividend.  Redeeming for all cash would increase that percentage.  If taken to extremes and most people cashed out with all cash then we'd end up with only the bonds left - and be unable to pay dividends.  Which is why that percentage can't be increased.

I'd offer an all cash option valuing them at whatever the first large bid was on market.

Because the fund SHOULD be selling some of them now (especially if people want to cash out all in cash) I can only value them for the purposes of cashing out at whatever they'll sell for on the market.  Which at present looks like being my own personal bid for 10k of them at .006 (which represents a price-point I'm personally happy to buy a decent chunk at - and give up my own liquidity for a likely 65% profit in a few months time).

In short you can't expect anyone else (including DMS) to buy them at .01 when you plainly value them a lot lower than that yourself.  And if DMS redeems in all cash then that effectively means I'm buying your ones of them at around .01 on behalf of everyone else - and likely they don't want that (or there'd be lots of bids above my .006).

[Deprived]

Some of you may notice that I've made a post elsewhere confirming that I'm in discussions with others (including Kate from CIPHERMINE) about creation of a new exchange - possibly purchasing and using the code from BTC-TC.

It is NOT my intention at this point to wait for that - I am still looking to relist elsewhere as soon as possible.  It potentially exists as a fall-back position if we're unable to list elsewhere but is in no way my plan.

I felt I ought to clarify that - as I didn't want investors thinking there was any possibility that I'd try to stay unlisted for a few months waiting for an exchange that may not even ever come to exist.  As soon as I have news on any move (or lack of ability to move) I'll update you all promptly.

I should add (as I mention I've been in discussion with Kate) that I have no doubt whatsoever that Kate intends to continue to operate CIPHERMINE and to honour the bonds.  The reasons I can't offer cash redemptions is now that if I do I'll accelerate DMS into a position of having a larger percentage of assets tied up in them than was agreed in the motion.  It's the lack of liquidity on them that's the problem, not a question of whether they'll still have face value when relisted.  Until they're relisted somewhere the lack of liquidity DOES reduce their value to us - as ideally we need to reduce the percentage of our assets tied up in them not increase it.  As I believe it's almost certain they'll relist before 3 months pass it makes no sense for DMS to ask for them to be bought back in 3 months time - and surrender all dividends in the meantime.  Until BTC-TC announced closure they were working precisely as intended - paying us interest AND selling on the market at a rate I was happy with at a price slightly above what we paid.

[HowlingMad]

I was wondering if you would be performing another 10 day dividend for PURCHASE and SELLING before BTCT closes?  The tenth day would be Oct. 6th.