Provably verified in online Poker! Is it possible?

[wattson]

Hi guys,
I have a serious question about the process of randomization in card shuffling in online poker.
Is there any solution for it to make it 100% transparent and verifiable and simple at the same time as well? Please share any innovative idea if you have any.

[1713509210]

1713509210

[1713509210]

1713509210

[BlockEye]

Hi guys,
I have a serious question about the process of randomization in card shuffling in online poker.
Is there any solution for it to make it 100% transparent and verifiable and simple at the same time as well? Please share any innovative idea if you have any.

Why you need to become transparent while you are playing against real player? What online poker are you pertaining, the P2P type or the Player VS House match. Because if it is the P2P is nonsense to become transparent on card draw. I heard already a method about verifying each draw on poker. I will come here when I found in again. I will be handling an ICO bounty campaign which is based on poker that's why it's sounds familiar to me.

[bhadz]

Hi guys,
I have a serious question about the process of randomization in card shuffling in online poker.
Is there any solution for it to make it 100% transparent and verifiable and simple at the same time as well? Please share any innovative idea if you have any.

It's not even called a solution if you are going to make 100% transparency when playing online poker. I guess there's no use and it's not even an innovative idea. The idea of playing poker will be useless and for sure many will forget this game online if all the cards are transparent to each other, everyone will be folding their cards and will just quit the game later on because there's no use of playing it.

[Bitfort]

Hi guys,
I have a serious question about the process of randomization in card shuffling in online poker.
Is there any solution for it to make it 100% transparent and verifiable and simple at the same time as well? Please share any innovative idea if you have any.

Yes it is.
1 - you have to "provable randomly" shuffle the cards.
2 - you have to prove the cards were handed out in that shuffled order.

But you would have to find a really smart solution to make it "simple".

Hi guys,
I have a serious question about the process of randomization in card shuffling in online poker.
Is there any solution for it to make it 100% transparent and verifiable and simple at the same time as well? Please share any innovative idea if you have any.

It's not even called a solution if you are going to make 100% transparency when playing online poker. I guess there's no use and it's not even an innovative idea. The idea of playing poker will be useless and for sure many will forget this game online if all the cards are transparent to each other, everyone will be folding their cards and will just quit the game later on because there's no use of playing it.

I don't think you know how provably fair systems works. (sorry if Im wrong)

The thing is you dont need to show cards to each other. All you need is to make sure "the cards order was given at game start and has not changed during the game".
This can be achieved by using "hash functions".

IMO by transparent he means: to be verifiable

[piloder]

Hi guys,
I have a serious question about the process of randomization in card shuffling in online poker.
Is there any solution for it to make it 100% transparent and verifiable and simple at the same time as well? Please share any innovative idea if you have any.

Poker is multiplayer game and it is hard to make multiplayer game transparent and verifiable. There is one technique called mental poker https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_poker

If you are concerned about whether other player is stacking the deck or peeking at other player's card than read about mental poker from the above link, a possible solution is described but haven't seen any platform using it till now.

[bajing]

Hi guys,
I have a serious question about the process of randomization in card shuffling in online poker.
Is there any solution for it to make it 100% transparent and verifiable and simple at the same time as well? Please share any innovative idea if you have any.

Well, I think for this one game we will never be able to figure it out because of the way they work using the system, so never expect to see random cards in online poker games that you can see with your own eyes unless you play live poker live. you can see it on fortunejack.com, they provide online live poker game.

[bhadz]

It's not even called a solution if you are going to make 100% transparency when playing online poker. I guess there's no use and it's not even an innovative idea. The idea of playing poker will be useless and for sure many will forget this game online if all the cards are transparent to each other, everyone will be folding their cards and will just quit the game later on because there's no use of playing it.

I don't think you know how provably fair systems works. (sorry if Im wrong)

The thing is you dont need to show cards to each other. All you need is to make sure "the cards order was given at game start and has not changed during the game".
This can be achieved by using "hash functions".

IMO by transparent he means: to be verifiable

Sorry but you are misunderstanding what I said, what he says is different and his terms aren't appropriate and if he means about verifiable then that should be and it shouldn't be transparent. I understand on what you have said about the cards should be given in order and will be constant, no change at all. This is good and this can secure every sit players that there's no suspicious thing that's happening.

[Bitfort]

It's not even called a solution if you are going to make 100% transparency when playing online poker. I guess there's no use and it's not even an innovative idea. The idea of playing poker will be useless and for sure many will forget this game online if all the cards are transparent to each other, everyone will be folding their cards and will just quit the game later on because there's no use of playing it.

I don't think you know how provably fair systems works. (sorry if Im wrong)

The thing is you dont need to show cards to each other. All you need is to make sure "the cards order was given at game start and has not changed during the game".
This can be achieved by using "hash functions".

IMO by transparent he means: to be verifiable

Sorry but you are misunderstanding what I said, what he says is different and his terms aren't appropriate and if he means about verifiable then that should be and it shouldn't be transparent. I understand on what you have said about the cards should be given in order and will be constant, no change at all. This is good and this can secure every sit players that there's no suspicious thing that's happening.

OK, I re-read the OP and see he used both "transparent" and "verifiable" words in his post.
So you were correct. My apologies for accusation.

@OP Transparent poker game makes no sense. I can only assume you have used inappropriate wording.

[Yadstiker]

It's not even called a solution if you are going to make 100% transparency when playing online poker. I guess there's no use and it's not even an innovative idea. The idea of playing poker will be useless and for sure many will forget this game online if all the cards are transparent to each other, everyone will be folding their cards and will just quit the game later on because there's no use of playing it.

I don't think you know how provably fair systems works. (sorry if Im wrong)

The thing is you dont need to show cards to each other. All you need is to make sure "the cards order was given at game start and has not changed during the game".
This can be achieved by using "hash functions".

IMO by transparent he means: to be verifiable

Sorry but you are misunderstanding what I said, what he says is different and his terms aren't appropriate and if he means about verifiable then that should be and it shouldn't be transparent. I understand on what you have said about the cards should be given in order and will be constant, no change at all. This is good and this can secure every sit players that there's no suspicious thing that's happening.

OK, I re-read the OP and see he used both "transparent" and "verifiable" words in his post.
So you were correct. My apologies for accusation.

@OP Transparent poker game makes no sense. I can only assume you have used inappropriate wording.

Been wondering if this is also actually true, i have heard it actually few times before but never actually been and saw it. I don' t know if this has a point but he means transparent? So i guess maybe it does exist in live poker but not actually in some p2p poker, it sounds like there is also no point on having transparency and could only lose players rather than attracting it, it sounds like actually cheating for me, correct me if i were wrong.

[darkangel11]

Hi guys,
I have a serious question about the process of randomization in card shuffling in online poker.
Is there any solution for it to make it 100% transparent and verifiable and simple at the same time as well? Please share any innovative idea if you have any.

If you're talking about playing against a bot operated by an online casino site, much like when you're playing blackjack it's of course possible. I've seen and played online poker against a provably fair bot more than once.

If we're talking about playing other people it's impossible, because the provably fair system only verifies seeds by making sure that the house "roll" stays anonymous to both sides and isn't changed until the player sees it on his screen.
In a poker game people don't roll, they choose cards themselves. The only way a casino could cheat in a pvp poker game is by watching your hand and revealing it to other players who would be planted casino employees.

[wattson]

Hi guys,
I have a serious question about the process of randomization in card shuffling in online poker.
Is there any solution for it to make it 100% transparent and verifiable and simple at the same time as well? Please share any innovative idea if you have any.

If you're talking about playing against a bot operated by an online casino site, much like when you're playing blackjack it's of course possible. I've seen and played online poker against a provably fair bot more than once.

If we're talking about playing other people it's impossible, because the provably fair system only verifies seeds by making sure that the house "roll" stays anonymous to both sides and isn't changed until the player sees it on his screen.
In a poker game people don't roll, they choose cards themselves. The only way a casino could cheat in a pvp poker game is by watching your hand and revealing it to other players who would be planted casino employees.

In the second line of your last paragraph you addressed the core of my my question, but the question remains the same, how to know that you are not playing against a casino who is seeing your cards and acting accordingly. Is their any simple solution to that so that this process become TRANSPARENT
 and verifiable?   

[phr0stbyt3]

Hi guys,
I have a serious question about the process of randomization in card shuffling in online poker.
Is there any solution for it to make it 100% transparent and verifiable and simple at the same time as well? Please share any innovative idea if you have any.

What's wrong currently most sites have probably fair mark and it can be verified , you can try to create poker on ether smart contract I'm not any sort if coder but doing so would mean everything is fair and can be viewed by anyone by the smart contract.

[bhadz]

It's not even called a solution if you are going to make 100% transparency when playing online poker. I guess there's no use and it's not even an innovative idea. The idea of playing poker will be useless and for sure many will forget this game online if all the cards are transparent to each other, everyone will be folding their cards and will just quit the game later on because there's no use of playing it.

I don't think you know how provably fair systems works. (sorry if Im wrong)

The thing is you dont need to show cards to each other. All you need is to make sure "the cards order was given at game start and has not changed during the game".
This can be achieved by using "hash functions".

IMO by transparent he means: to be verifiable

Sorry but you are misunderstanding what I said, what he says is different and his terms aren't appropriate and if he means about verifiable then that should be and it shouldn't be transparent. I understand on what you have said about the cards should be given in order and will be constant, no change at all. This is good and this can secure every sit players that there's no suspicious thing that's happening.

OK, I re-read the OP and see he used both "transparent" and "verifiable" words in his post.
So you were correct. My apologies for accusation.

@OP Transparent poker game makes no sense. I can only assume you have used inappropriate wording.

Been wondering if this is also actually true, i have heard it actually few times before but never actually been and saw it. I don' t know if this has a point but he means transparent? So i guess maybe it does exist in live poker but not actually in some p2p poker, it sounds like there is also no point on having transparency and could only lose players rather than attracting it, it sounds like actually cheating for me, correct me if i were wrong.

@Bittfort no, it's fine mate we're here to discuss things about like this.
@Yadstiker, transparency it's not literally a cheating for me but when you are one of the players it's a disadvantage right? You can see the cards of your opponents and your opponents knows your cards too. It's unfair and maybe there is something that OP wants to declare but he can't express it properly.

[darkangel11]

Hi guys,
I have a serious question about the process of randomization in card shuffling in online poker.
Is there any solution for it to make it 100% transparent and verifiable and simple at the same time as well? Please share any innovative idea if you have any.

If you're talking about playing against a bot operated by an online casino site, much like when you're playing blackjack it's of course possible. I've seen and played online poker against a provably fair bot more than once.

If we're talking about playing other people it's impossible, because the provably fair system only verifies seeds by making sure that the house "roll" stays anonymous to both sides and isn't changed until the player sees it on his screen.
In a poker game people don't roll, they choose cards themselves. The only way a casino could cheat in a pvp poker game is by watching your hand and revealing it to other players who would be planted casino employees.

In the second line of your last paragraph you addressed the core of my my question, but the question remains the same, how to know that you are not playing against a casino who is seeing your cards and acting accordingly. Is their any simple solution to that so that this process become TRANSPARENT
 and verifiable?  

I don't see any way to do it at the moment. There's a reason why poker rooms are plagued with teams of players that work together and share the winnings. If you are at a 5 player table and 3 of them are sharing cards you will have a very hard time. It's similar with playing against casino plants, even in a 1v1v2 situation where those 2 are casino employees. They don't have to see your cards, but they will be able to minimize your winnings by playing together.

According to some, cheating in poker can be detected if you play long enough:
An understanding of game play and betting patterns will allow an observant player to realize when this form of rigging might be taking place.
In fact, this is exactly what happened during a tournament at Absolute Poker back in 2007, when observant players questioned the tournament winner's game play and instigated an investigation which led to the uncovering of a scandal in which online players were cheated out of up to $1 million.

[equator]

Hi guys,
I have a serious question about the process of randomization in card shuffling in online poker.
Is there any solution for it to make it 100% transparent and verifiable and simple at the same time as well? Please share any innovative idea if you have any.

It's not even called a solution if you are going to make 100% transparency when playing online poker. I guess there's no use and it's not even an innovative idea. The idea of playing poker will be useless and for sure many will forget this game online if all the cards are transparent to each other, everyone will be folding their cards and will just quit the game later on because there's no use of playing it.

I don't think you know how provably fair systems works. (sorry if Im wrong)

The thing is you dont need to show cards to each other. All you need is to make sure "the cards order was given at game start and has not changed during the game".
This can be achieved by using "hash functions".

IMO by transparent he means: to be verifiable


[/quote]

What you told is the only way of finding the game cards given are correct or not , only the Hash Function way can give you the transparency and fair system working of cards drawn

[jostorres]

Hi guys,
I have a serious question about the process of randomization in card shuffling in online poker.
Is there any solution for it to make it 100% transparent and verifiable and simple at the same time as well? Please share any innovative idea if you have any.

Then how do you intend to play the online poker if it is going to be transparent ?
Cause the only way to make it transparent is to verify the card shuffling isn't it and except there is a very smart program that can be trusted or written to do the shuffling and rely totally on the fact that it is doing a fair job, I do not see any other way.

[cjmoles]

Hi guys,
I have a serious question about the process of randomization in card shuffling in online poker.
Is there any solution for it to make it 100% transparent and verifiable and simple at the same time as well? Please share any innovative idea if you have any.

Actually, I've been thinking about this a lot lately.  If a smart contract were implemented that could record the shuffle and the distribution of cards on the blockchain then that could solve the transparency concerns. In fact, if a blockchain can be created specifically with a poker client in mind, then there are a variety of possible solutions that can be attained---> I am waiting for it ---> it will come because it's a no brainer!

[iv4n]

Hi guys,
I have a serious question about the process of randomization in card shuffling in online poker.
Is there any solution for it to make it 100% transparent and verifiable and simple at the same time as well? Please share any innovative idea if you have any.

Then how do you intend to play the online poker if it is going to be transparent ?
Cause the only way to make it transparent is to verify the card shuffling isn't it and except there is a very smart program that can be trusted or written to do the shuffling and rely totally on the fact that it is doing a fair job, I do not see any other way.

Cards are not fair. I play live poker and believe when I say cards are not fair. Poker sites use programs to shuffle cards, are they probably fair I believe they are because they are earning money from rake, they shuffle cards and deal to players, for some its good hand for others bad, as long as people play site is earning.
You can't judge poker just from your experience, I had bad weeks with poker, when I couldn't win nothing, if I start to talk you can't believe what stories I have to tell, but there are good weeks too. Poker is a card game and you can never trust cards, play a lot like I did and you will see miracles in live and online poker, its same for me.

[marlboroza]

Hi guys,
I have a serious question about the process of randomization in card shuffling in online poker.
Is there any solution for it to make it 100% transparent and verifiable and simple at the same time as well? Please share any innovative idea if you have any.

It is possible but I just don't like that idea. I want to hide my hand and show it when I want to as a part of strategy, with provably fair everyone could easily check if someone bluffed or not and use that info.
Besides, provably fair system in texas holdem is meaningless, you will never know is it "real provably fair system" or is it "rigged provably fair system", for example you get KK, your opponent gets AA and flop shows KKA - one person will go all in other will call, one will lose and house will earn big rake. You will never prove was it rigged or not, even thought it was provably fair.

[cjmoles]

Hi guys,
I have a serious question about the process of randomization in card shuffling in online poker.
Is there any solution for it to make it 100% transparent and verifiable and simple at the same time as well? Please share any innovative idea if you have any.

It is possible but I just don't like that idea. I want to hide my hand and show it when I want to as a part of strategy, with provably fair everyone could easily check if someone bluffed or not and use that info.
Besides, provably fair system in texas holdem is meaningless, you will never know is it "real provably fair system" or is it "rigged provably fair system", for example you get KK, your opponent gets AA and flop shows KKA - one person will go all in other will call, one will lose and house will earn big rake. You will never prove was it rigged or not, even thought it was provably fair.

These are some of the same concerns they had back in the day when poker began to become popular on television which lead to the big poker boom.  A lot of players were concerned with the card cams installed on the tables; however, the advantages of the system outweighed the potential liabilities and the players adjusted their game ---> sometimes advertising a bluff is a good thing.  And, if a poker client were built upon a DECENTRALIZED blockchain then there is no "house" to rig the game, right?