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Author Topic: [OFFICIAL]Bitfinex.com first Bitcoin P2P lending platform for leverage trading  (Read 719784 times)
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whatthesith
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February 06, 2014, 12:45:01 PM
 #1721


how can you role back trades made in exchange mode? wtf

If they decided to do rollback, they cannot just do rollback on margin trading. It is because the exchange and margin trading orders are matched together.

Unless, they take money from their bags.

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February 06, 2014, 12:46:03 PM
 #1722

can anyone with experience have a look at the LTC blockchain, to know/guess if the LTC really moved out of BFX?
i'm assuming there should be some major, out of the ordinary movements happening during that time-window...
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February 06, 2014, 12:46:17 PM
 #1723

Are they going to undo absolutely all of the trades for the time period in question?
From what I saw during the "hiccup", most/a lot of trades were made in the right range.

P.S.
Quote
You are joking me right?
What about the shorts I took in LTC/USD more than 2 days ago that where giving me plenty of profit? You are stealing that money from me!
You screw up! A situation that went on for more than 5h, from morning to noon in Hong Kong, where your service resides and no one of your team did anything. Too busy doing what? Partying, sleeping?
You run an exchange that moves millions every day and you don't pay attention for 5h? Are you joking me?
I want my money back. You have bank accounts in European Union and I'm taking you to a court of law in here!

Oh, you are such a selfish ass, aren't you? GFY...


I'm the selfish one? I don't see them working for free I was paying this bunch every time I used their service. This is a business not a party house.

These guys make millions of USD every months from the fees of users like me. They can't just come here and say: Ei, there was this rat you see, so now we are canceling everything.

Cost of doing business. Own up to your mistakes and pay the people you screwed with this.


BUT man, you knew of that risk. if you take margin positions for a longer time you risk some events..
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February 06, 2014, 12:54:31 PM
 #1724

True. We assume risk of trading, not risk of the platform getting exploited.
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February 06, 2014, 12:56:16 PM
 #1725

How about you stop whining jbssm? You and your other handle. Seriously.

BITFINEX - Trade with Leverage. Your ref. code: PD3bFJBdKk (Get 10% off fees), LINK: https://www.bitfinex.com/?refcode=PD3bFJBdKk
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February 06, 2014, 12:57:22 PM
 #1726

jbssm, Just chill out for a sec, LTC is still at 20 USD. How big is your missed profit?

the rollback has exaclty the same effect as the exchange goin down for a few hours.
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February 06, 2014, 12:58:40 PM
 #1727

Are they going to undo absolutely all of the trades for the time period in question?
From what I saw during the "hiccup", most/a lot of trades were made in the right range.

P.S.
Quote
You are joking me right?
What about the shorts I took in LTC/USD more than 2 days ago that where giving me plenty of profit? You are stealing that money from me!
You screw up! A situation that went on for more than 5h, from morning to noon in Hong Kong, where your service resides and no one of your team did anything. Too busy doing what? Partying, sleeping?
You run an exchange that moves millions every day and you don't pay attention for 5h? Are you joking me?
I want my money back. You have bank accounts in European Union and I'm taking you to a court of law in here!

Oh, you are such a selfish ass, aren't you? GFY...


I'm the selfish one? I don't see them working for free I was paying this bunch every time I used their service. This is a business not a party house.

These guys make millions of USD every months from the fees of users like me. They can't just come here and say: Ei, there was this rat you see, so now we are canceling everything.

Cost of doing business. Own up to your mistakes and pay the people you screwed with this.


BUT man, you knew of that risk. if you take margin positions for a longer time you risk some events..

Risk, what risk? The only risk I have to accept is that if I make a trade at the wrong time, the price goes in the wrong direction and I loose money.
I don't have to accept any other risk. If Bitfinex screw up and put up a technically flawed site to handle hundreds of millions of dollars, it's BitFinex fault. There is no risk implied for me in that part.

In fact the only ones accepting risk here where the lenders. They where offered an insurance option for a price to their lending. If they didn't took it, than yes, that's a risk for them.

I pay BitFinex to provide a service this guys don't do this for free or for the BTC community, they do it for profit. period!

 If they screw up, own up, after all they must have a lot of money put aside from all the profit they made. If they don't want to put their own money Go after the hacked, prosecute them and get their money back, but don't screw your costumers to pay for your mistakes.

i am not so sure, we all know (and love) that we are NOT trading on banking plattforms, but on plattforms that are kind of beta, so dont blame the guys too early, cause for now nobody knows if it is a fuckup-flaw or some  serious genious hack or wahtever.

if you are really asking for a 100% secure plattform, man, shut down your computer, get yourself a rambo training and open up a lemonade stand and then you´ll see about 100% security Wink

my point is: i´d rather have plattforms like the exchanges today, than anything from the banksters with the ridicoulus regulations, where every significant market movement leads to a stop and shit (see gold some weeks ago)
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February 06, 2014, 12:59:19 PM
 #1728

jbssm, as blueberry mentioned if your trades were executed due to the rat's actions, it has to be undone.
You cannot profit from an exploit, simple as that.

How Ripple Rips you: "The founders of Ripple Labs created 100 billion XRP at Ripple's inception. No more can be created according to the rules of the Ripple protocol. Of the 100 billion created, 20 billion XRP were retained by the creators, seeders, venture capital companies and other founders. The remaining 80 billion were given to Ripple Labs. Ripple Labs intends to distribute and sell 55 of that 80 billion XRP to users and strategic partners. Ripple Labs also had a giveaway of under 200 million XRP (0.002% of all XRP) via World Community Grid that was later discontinued.[29] Ripple Labs will retain the remaining 25 billion"
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February 06, 2014, 01:01:16 PM
 #1729

True. We assume risk of trading, not risk of the platform getting exploited.

Really? You'll have to point out where that is in the Terms of Service contract you signed with bitfinex...

Guys, we're trading crazy new crypto currencies on utterly unregulated markets.  This is the wild west of the internet!  Its fucking risky

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February 06, 2014, 01:08:07 PM
 #1730

True. We assume risk of trading, not risk of the platform getting exploited.

I'm not sure you guys should be trading, considering that you don't fully understand the risks you are taking.

This is basic Trading 1-1:

1- Settlement Risk: this is the risk that, when i said that i will sell you 1 BTC for 800USD, someone makes sure that both the BTC and the USD exchange hands for the value agreed

2- Counterparty Risk: this is the risk that both of us are going to actually pay to each other what we said we will pay, and none of us will run away without paying

3- Slippage Risk: this is the risk that, when you put an order in the market @800, you will actually get it filled at 800 and not at 795

4- Volatility Risk: this is the risk that the exchange rate will move from 800 to 10 in one second

5- Liquidity Risk: this is the risk that, even if you bought 2.000 BTC at 10USD, and now the price is 800USD/BTC (which just make you a virtual millionaire), there's someone on the other side willing to ACTUALLY buy those 2.000 BTC for USD

6- Notional Risk: this is the risk that the "pixel" fiat money you have in your BFX account on the computer screen can be actually transformed into hard cash that you can smell and use to buy a Porsche

And these are just the major ones. Have a look at ANY respectable Forex trading platform, and you will see a comprehensive list of the risk you are facing whenever trading something through an exchange. That goes for everyone, and the reason why all the exchanges sanctioned by the states are so heavily regulated and controlled.

Maybe we should give a little credit to the Bitfinex team, and to all remind ourselves that we're trading cryptos BECAUSE of the high volatility, BECAUSE it's risky and BECAUSE it's still a legal and regulatory "no man's land".
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February 06, 2014, 01:08:26 PM
Last edit: February 06, 2014, 01:44:27 PM by thunderblt
 #1731

Quote
Did you sell your LTC @22 during the abnormal trading period in question? If so then the trade should be rolled back since it was only executed because of a malicious hack and therefore are fraudulent trades. 22 was 10% above market value and would not have been reached under any normal market trading circumstances. Btc-e's highest price was 20.45 during this period.

What you're saying is not logical here. LTC price always jumps up and down like this on finex, this is not the first time, it even went to 0.0001 on china panic. I saw that swings and just wanted out, didn't wanted any profits, just to be safe in fiat, and I'm sure I wasn't the only one. But now I'm in loss because they handed back my LTC's after the price came down, and still is going down. My question here is, What happened to the money hackers stole? who paid it?
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February 06, 2014, 01:11:40 PM
 #1732

Question: If you get a margin call on your trading wallet, but you have funds in your exchange wallet, will funds get pulled from your exchange wallet into your trading wallet, or will you get liquidated?

I ask because during slow markets, I primarily trade using exchange wallet rather than trading wallet, so that I don't get charged lending fees. But I still have a bunch of leveraged orders on my trading wallet at incremental low prices in case of flashcrashes and I really don't want to bother having to cancel them all whenever I want to trade on exchange and re-place them whenever I'm done trading on exchange. However, today with that bug two of my outermost flashcrash orders got hit while I had nearly no funds in my trading wallet and it was really a wakeup call. I had 0.8btc in my trading account and I bought 5 btc at 690.1 and 5btc at 680.1. lol. Luckily the price didn't go any further.

In the case that the wallet would be liquidated, I will have to adjust my strategy so that I primarily do trading on the trading wallet and in times when I want to be "in fiat" I will hold a balance of bitcoins but "short" the balance and have an open short position with an equal amount of bitcoins.
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February 06, 2014, 01:18:28 PM
 #1733

1. Bitfinex did not even notice this issue for over SIX HOURS, despite emails, tweets, posts to the forum, and messages to their unofficial IRC channel.  In fact, people were discussing how to setup arbitrarily large positions in the #bitfinex channel itself.

2. Bitfinex is "rolling-back" trades, but from what timestamp?   All of my LTC/BTC trades last are still registered in History.  Which trades will Bitfinex honor?  What about the swap charges that were multiplied by 10x?  Those charges, at least for me, were not reversed.

3. Money was clearly made on artificially Huge LTC and BTC market moves, and those coins were withdrawn (150K LTC coins, as reported on IRC).  So, how much of that cost is being borne by the customers, and how much by the exchange?  Will this come from the "insurance" fund?  Are you still fully capitalized in both your Hong Kong account (used to reconcile with Bitstamp) and your Shanghai account?

Giancarlo, I'm sure you're busy, so maybe just let us know you'll send a more complete explanation when you've put together a remediation plan.   The worst thing you could do now is make it sound like it was no big deal.  My coins are withdrawn until it's clear you have a handle on the situation.

PS: Support & Testing - you need to get serious about them.
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February 06, 2014, 01:22:24 PM
 #1734

Btw, you know that the courts of law, make the banks give the money back to people when the money is stolen because of vulnerabilities in their systems right?

Are you new? These things aren't regulated...that's kind of the point. You want the law behind you, go play on the stock market. Don't put any money in crypto you can't afford to lose, and don't whine if a technical issue stops you from making a "would be" profit. Risk of the game and all that.


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TERA
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February 06, 2014, 01:27:20 PM
 #1735

I dont think that his original concern had to do with making profits from the abnormality. I think I kind of get where he is coming from.

Consider somehow who just wants to sell their LTC. Not someone who made a profit from the rat (like me), but someone saw LTC was about to crash and just wanted to sell their LTC, at any price. It didn't have to be the abnormal 22, it could be the normal 21. But then LTC crashes to 19. Now instead of having sold his litecoins at 22 or even 21, he now holds LTC valued at 19. Thus, he is at a loss from where he'd be if things were running as normal and the service was accessible.
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February 06, 2014, 01:40:08 PM
 #1736

These guys do have bank accounts on EU that they use to transfer the funds and for want I see some of them live here. Just because it's not regulated it doesn't stop being a liability under the law in Europe.

Yeah but you can't sue them for stealing your money, because they didn't. That a trade in cryptocurrency malfunctioned or was turned back is not something you're going to find regulated to the point you can ask for compensation.

And let's be honest, you're not really going to sue anyone, it's not a positive value move. It's just a lot of noise because you're unhappy but realistically there is nothing you can do but hope the people running that site give you some compensation, if they feel like it.


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February 06, 2014, 01:47:20 PM
 #1737

This is what happened: Some hackers started playing with the ticker price and made huge profits by force liquidating many positions which made many traders go default. Hackers then withdrew all the coins and escaped. Then after about 4-5 hours Bitfinex team comes and rolls back. Great, So what happened to the money hackers stole? did they pay it out of their pockets? or they paid it by rolling back other traders ho had shorted?
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February 06, 2014, 01:50:14 PM
 #1738



2. Bitfinex is "rolling-back" trades, but from what timestamp?   All of my LTC/BTC trades last are still registered in History.  Which trades will Bitfinex honor?  What about the swap charges that were multiplied by 10x?  Those charges, at least for me, were not reversed.

You should have abstained from trading but instead you took advantage of the exploit which gave you 25:1 leverage, now you pay the consequences.

How Ripple Rips you: "The founders of Ripple Labs created 100 billion XRP at Ripple's inception. No more can be created according to the rules of the Ripple protocol. Of the 100 billion created, 20 billion XRP were retained by the creators, seeders, venture capital companies and other founders. The remaining 80 billion were given to Ripple Labs. Ripple Labs intends to distribute and sell 55 of that 80 billion XRP to users and strategic partners. Ripple Labs also had a giveaway of under 200 million XRP (0.002% of all XRP) via World Community Grid that was later discontinued.[29] Ripple Labs will retain the remaining 25 billion"
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February 06, 2014, 01:51:30 PM
 #1739

That 10,000 order was there for like an HOUR or TWO before it really started causing damage and the whole time people on the forum were talking about it. If only they had noticed it, they could have prevented the whole thing.
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February 06, 2014, 01:56:26 PM
 #1740

I'm surely as hell suing these guys and first I'll start by making a complaint at the police.

Good luck with that.


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