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Author Topic: Fiat Money is a Bubble  (Read 479 times)
amaral1977
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October 23, 2017, 09:45:25 PM
 #21

Since many people try to convince us that Bitcoin is a bubble and how we will lose our money eventually, I wonder if money is not a bubble actually. There exist economies in which money has a positive value in spite its market fundamental is zero. That means fiat money has zero value. Fiat money is a social contrivance. We take money from other people because we know other people will take it from us. In theory and practice the fiat money is a bubble.
Everything is a bubble or a ponzi scheme if we want to take it literally. Consider the banking system. it´s a gigantic world wide ponzi where the growing economies borrow and pay interest to te better established economies. And it relies on contiuous growth. When growth is alted there is a major retraction, banks bankrupting and governments printing adicional money to sustain it. The question is...How long can it endure? indefinitelly or will it burst exposing the bubble?

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October 23, 2017, 10:15:11 PM
 #22

Economic and financial policy in this era is puzzling.

Apple is sitting on $256.8 billion usd:

Quote
Apple's cash hoard swells to record $256.8 billion

Apple's enormous cash pile swelled to $256.8 billion in the fiscal second quarter, up more than $10 billion from the previous quarter.

That figure means Apple's war chest is now larger than the market value of General Electric, but smaller than that of Wells Fargo.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/02/apples-cash-hoard-swells-to-record-256-8-billion.html

What happens to apple's $256 billion if the federal government defaults on its $20 trillion dollar deficit and the value of the dollar plummets?

Bitcoin/crypto could well be a safer investment than either the dollar or the euro at this point.

It is possible that as deficit and default fears grow big corporations like google, apple, microsoft and others will seek to transfer their holdings to denominations of crypto as it may be more reliable than fiat like the dollar or euro.

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October 23, 2017, 10:20:15 PM
 #23

Economic and financial policy in this era is puzzling.

Apple is sitting on $256.8 billion usd:

Quote
Apple's cash hoard swells to record $256.8 billion

Apple's enormous cash pile swelled to $256.8 billion in the fiscal second quarter, up more than $10 billion from the previous quarter.

That figure means Apple's war chest is now larger than the market value of General Electric, but smaller than that of Wells Fargo.

https://www.c[Suspicious link removed]m/2017/05/02/apples-cash-hoard-swells-to-record-256-8-billion.html

What happens to apple's $256 billion if the federal government defaults on its $20 trillion dollar deficit and the value of the dollar plummets?

Bitcoin/crypto could well be a safer investment than either the dollar or the euro at this point.

It is possible that as deficit and default fears grow big corporations like google, apple, microsoft and others will seek to transfer their holdings to denominations of crypto as it may be more reliable than fiat like the dollar or euro.
They should create an edible Iphone in the next version so they don't starve. j/k Apple will be fine. They can use all those apple stores as dispensary locations.

¯  ¯   LET'S THINK ABOUT THE FUTURE   ¯  ¯
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October 23, 2017, 10:39:56 PM
 #24

I do not think fiat money is legal money that is fully controlled by the central bank and government, of course the government has special consideration to increase or decrease fiat money value.

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October 23, 2017, 10:44:33 PM
 #25

I do not think fiat money is legal money that is fully controlled by the central bank and government, of course the government has special consideration to increase or decrease fiat money value.
It's only legal because they say it is. That's not the way it should be. We are way past that and we dont need to be told what is money. Each of us knows this.

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October 23, 2017, 10:53:39 PM
 #26

I do not think fiat money is legal money that is fully controlled by the central bank and government, of course the government has special consideration to increase or decrease fiat money value.

It's a legal money because there is a government that supports it. How come if a fiat money that was produced by a stranger will become a legal money for the whole country? And the value is also depending to it's economy, how it's market is making, depending on gross domestic product per capita. The value doesn't portrays a special consideration but it's an indicator on how strong the economy of the country is.

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October 23, 2017, 10:55:58 PM
 #27

Since many people try to convince us that Bitcoin is a bubble and how we will lose our money eventually, I wonder if money is not a bubble actually. There exist economies in which money has a positive value in spite its market fundamental is zero. That means fiat money has zero value. Fiat money is a social contrivance. We take money from other people because we know other people will take it from us. In theory and practice the fiat money is a bubble.

I don’t know if the term bubble is the best to describe fiat, but I definitely agree that most fiat money has artificial value. US money for example is not backed by gold any more so the value is artificially set by the government. And they can just print as much as they want to. If the economy went into a depression, the fiat currency would be worth very little. At least Bitcoin has value based on a true free market.

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October 23, 2017, 11:02:42 PM
 #28

Since many people try to convince us that Bitcoin is a bubble and how we will lose our money eventually, I wonder if money is not a bubble actually. There exist economies in which money has a positive value in spite its market fundamental is zero. That means fiat money has zero value. Fiat money is a social contrivance. We take money from other people because we know other people will take it from us. In theory and practice the fiat money is a bubble.
Bitcoin value is based on the large amount of whales that hold their coins and influence their price with it. The value grows, yes, but not entirely honestly.

I don’t know if the term bubble is the best to describe fiat, but I definitely agree that most fiat money has artificial value. US money for example is not backed by gold any more so the value is artificially set by the government. And they can just print as much as they want to. If the economy went into a depression, the fiat currency would be worth very little. At least Bitcoin has value based on a true free market.

¯  ¯   LET'S THINK ABOUT THE FUTURE   ¯  ¯
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October 23, 2017, 11:07:42 PM
 #29

Its fundamentals does not have a value of zero, the value of Fiat currency is in direct reflection of a country's economy as well as the supply and demand of the fiat currency. How can something be a bubble if the world markets are the one who are giving them a fair market value? It is hard for a country to make their fiat currency appreciate in value without making their country grow. Also being a medium of exchange for a country makes it really hard to give it an overvalued state.

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October 23, 2017, 11:17:30 PM
 #30

Fiat money is a bubble? Why?!
In my opinion FIAT moeny can't be a bubble, because everyone use FIAT currency. We can actually buy a lot of things, and use that money in many good ways. If anything i would say that bitcoin may be a bubble, because we dont have a lot of opportunities to buy something for btc  and even if we finally have such a chance we just dont want to spend our BTCs, co the price increase again. So that type of money (bitcoin) maybe is a bubble, and fiat for sure is not a bubble.

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October 23, 2017, 11:19:20 PM
 #31

Since many people try to convince us that Bitcoin is a bubble and how we will lose our money eventually, I wonder if money is not a bubble actually. There exist economies in which money has a positive value in spite its market fundamental is zero. That means fiat money has zero value. Fiat money is a social contrivance. We take money from other people because we know other people will take it from us. In theory and practice the fiat money is a bubble.
Everything is a bubble or a ponzi scheme if we want to take it literally. Consider the banking system. it´s a gigantic world wide ponzi where the growing economies borrow and pay interest to te better established economies. And it relies on contiuous growth. When growth is alted there is a major retraction, banks bankrupting and governments printing adicional money to sustain it. The question is...How long can it endure? indefinitelly or will it burst exposing the bubble?

I'm kinda curious now with the banks to be involved with bitcoin. So you mean that's a real role of banking system? The way you save your money through banks and it is a kind of borrowing? I'm not really into banking but that's really not clear to me. Actually,I tried saving to a bank for a month but I didn't borrow because obviously it was my savings. With regards to fiat money as a bubble,yes it is bit mind you eventhough it is a bubble but it gives us profit and that's worth it.

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October 23, 2017, 11:20:53 PM
 #32

Fiat money is a bubble? Why?!
In my opinion FIAT moeny can't be a bubble, because everyone use FIAT currency. We can actually buy a lot of things, and use that money in many good ways. If anything i would say that bitcoin may be a bubble, because we dont have a lot of opportunities to buy something for btc  and even if we finally have such a chance we just dont want to spend our BTCs, co the price increase again. So that type of money (bitcoin) maybe is a bubble, and fiat for sure is not a bubble.
Fiat is not a bubble. It's just devalued.

¯  ¯   LET'S THINK ABOUT THE FUTURE   ¯  ¯
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October 23, 2017, 11:31:41 PM
 #33

Since many people try to convince us that Bitcoin is a bubble and how we will lose our money eventually, I wonder if money is not a bubble actually. There exist economies in which money has a positive value in spite its market fundamental is zero. That means fiat money has zero value. Fiat money is a social contrivance. We take money from other people because we know other people will take it from us. In theory and practice the fiat money is a bubble.

That description you provided is not a bubble. A bubble is an asset price that rises far beyond the fair market value and eventually cashes. The fair market value of a dollar is literally a dollar. Even if the currency devalues, a dollar is still worth a dollar, so you cannot have a bubble of a currency that is denominated in that same currency. Fiat may have zeroni nherent value, but that doesn't make the value we assign to it a bubble, because it's relatively stable over time. That's quite the opposite scenario Bitcoin occupies presently where the value has zero inherent value but there are people who assign ever-higher values to it in a cycle of mania.


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October 24, 2017, 04:53:41 AM
 #34

Since many people try to convince us that Bitcoin is a bubble and how we will lose our money eventually, I wonder if money is not a bubble actually. There exist economies in which money has a positive value in spite its market fundamental is zero. That means fiat money has zero value. Fiat money is a social contrivance. We take money from other people because we know other people will take it from us. In theory and practice the fiat money is a bubble.

That description you provided is not a bubble. A bubble is an asset price that rises far beyond the fair market value and eventually cashes. The fair market value of a dollar is literally a dollar. Even if the currency devalues, a dollar is still worth a dollar, so you cannot have a bubble of a currency that is denominated in that same currency. Fiat may have zeroni nherent value, but that doesn't make the value we assign to it a bubble, because it's relatively stable over time. That's quite the opposite scenario Bitcoin occupies presently where the value has zero inherent value but there are people who assign ever-higher values to it in a cycle of mania.


In my opinion fiat money is not a bubble because they are the national currency that is used on it of every country and in a fact that is the physical assets that corresponds to gold. Whatever the value of gold contains in a state or country reflects the amount of money circulates in the economy. That could be the basis of printing fiat money according to the value of there gold deposits.

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October 24, 2017, 06:20:45 AM
 #35

Since many people try to convince us that Bitcoin is a bubble and how we will lose our money eventually, I wonder if money is not a bubble actually. There exist economies in which money has a positive value in spite its market fundamental is zero. That means fiat money has zero value. Fiat money is a social contrivance. We take money from other people because we know other people will take it from us. In theory and practice the fiat money is a bubble.
How do you define a currency and a bubble? FIAT IS NOT A BUBBLE it is a currency same with Bitcoin, how come you can just spread fake assumptions without supporting information regarding to your claim?. FIAT money have been used for almost a hundred years, mind that. Mostly of fiat money's value are based on the gold reserve of that Country. Make sure to do your research first.

..C..
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October 24, 2017, 08:56:58 AM
 #36

Since many people try to convince us that Bitcoin is a bubble and how we will lose our money eventually, I wonder if money is not a bubble actually. There exist economies in which money has a positive value in spite its market fundamental is zero. That means fiat money has zero value. Fiat money is a social contrivance. We take money from other people because we know other people will take it from us. In theory and practice the fiat money is a bubble.
How do you define a currency and a bubble? FIAT IS NOT A BUBBLE it is a currency same with Bitcoin, how come you can just spread fake assumptions without supporting information regarding to your claim?. FIAT money have been used for almost a hundred years, mind that. Mostly of fiat money's value are based on the gold reserve of that Country. Make sure to do your research first.

You have to do your research. Asset backed fiat money were abundant 40 years ago. At present every currency in the world is backed by gold less than 5% and many countries back their currencies by another currency.

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October 24, 2017, 09:04:04 AM
 #37

Currencies in themselves are not the actual bubbles. When they are starting to be traded in exchanges then their value is subjected to the traders will. When coins go as collateral and then someone buys the ability to collect the collateral, then a certain amount of money costs more than it was before, for example study the home loans case in the US. These tactics, when used carelessly specially from banks, make a currency look like a bubble.

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October 24, 2017, 09:28:55 AM
 #38

Since many people try to convince us that Bitcoin is a bubble and how we will lose our money eventually, I wonder if money is not a bubble actually. There exist economies in which money has a positive value in spite its market fundamental is zero. That means fiat money has zero value. Fiat money is a social contrivance. We take money from other people because we know other people will take it from us. In theory and practice the fiat money is a bubble.
How do you define a currency and a bubble? FIAT IS NOT A BUBBLE it is a currency same with Bitcoin, how come you can just spread fake assumptions without supporting information regarding to your claim?. FIAT money have been used for almost a hundred years, mind that. Mostly of fiat money's value are based on the gold reserve of that Country. Make sure to do your research first.

You have to do your research. Asset backed fiat money were abundant 40 years ago. At present every currency in the world is backed by gold less than 5% and many countries back their currencies by another currency.
(if your post is directly to me) "Mostly" Which means? NOT EVERY CURRENCY. Do your duty to proofread and comprehend everything that you read online before rebutting to my post. And I agree to you that some of the country's currency is backed by another currency. Again, FIAT is not a bubble.

..C..
.....................
........Finally C is .........
..............
...........            ............
       ............            ............
...................      ....................

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October 24, 2017, 05:21:47 PM
 #39

Since many people try to convince us that Bitcoin is a bubble and how we will lose our money eventually, I wonder if money is not a bubble actually. There exist economies in which money has a positive value in spite its market fundamental is zero. That means fiat money has zero value. Fiat money is a social contrivance. We take money from other people because we know other people will take it from us. In theory and practice the fiat money is a bubble.
How do you define a currency and a bubble? FIAT IS NOT A BUBBLE it is a currency same with Bitcoin, how come you can just spread fake assumptions without supporting information regarding to your claim?. FIAT money have been used for almost a hundred years, mind that. Mostly of fiat money's value are based on the gold reserve of that Country. Make sure to do your research first.

You have to do your research. Asset backed fiat money were abundant 40 years ago. At present every currency in the world is backed by gold less than 5% and many countries back their currencies by another currency.
(if your post is directly to me) "Mostly" Which means? NOT EVERY CURRENCY. Do your duty to proofread and comprehend everything that you read online before rebutting to my post. And I agree to you that some of the country's currency is backed by another currency. Again, FIAT is not a bubble.
Agreed. Not a bubble. Just a massive inflationary scam. How else do you explain the 99% decrease in buying power.

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amaral1977
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October 24, 2017, 09:31:53 PM
 #40

Since many people try to convince us that Bitcoin is a bubble and how we will lose our money eventually, I wonder if money is not a bubble actually. There exist economies in which money has a positive value in spite its market fundamental is zero. That means fiat money has zero value. Fiat money is a social contrivance. We take money from other people because we know other people will take it from us. In theory and practice the fiat money is a bubble.
Everything is a bubble or a ponzi scheme if we want to take it literally. Consider the banking system. it´s a gigantic world wide ponzi where the growing economies borrow and pay interest to te better established economies. And it relies on contiuous growth. When growth is alted there is a major retraction, banks bankrupting and governments printing adicional money to sustain it. The question is...How long can it endure? indefinitelly or will it burst exposing the bubble?

I'm kinda curious now with the banks to be involved with bitcoin. So you mean that's a real role of banking system? The way you save your money through banks and it is a kind of borrowing? I'm not really into banking but that's really not clear to me. Actually,I tried saving to a bank for a month but I didn't borrow because obviously it was my savings. With regards to fiat money as a bubble,yes it is bit mind you eventhough it is a bubble but it gives us profit and that's worth it.
In my part of the world banks strive on fees and mostly on lending. Its not the savings that support the business. Its a rule that banks must have a certain % of the money we put in available...like 10 or 15%. that is scary. And that system is fed through central banks with the lendings to developing countries with bigger economic growths.

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