Paypal's Employee Policy on Bitcoin

[webjoe]

Saw this on reddit:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1g23w2/paypal_email_to_employees_policy_regarding_bitcoin/

From a friend in Paypal, got this in an email today:
Clarification on Bitcoin merchants using PayPal 6/10/2013 8:58 AM (-05:00) Impacted market: EMEA
We’ve received a number of escalations regarding Bitcoin merchants using PayPal. Any merchant seeking to sell or buy Bitcoins with PayPal is operating as a financial exchange. Please be aware that Financial Exchange merchants are prohibited unless pre-approved by PayPal. This process involves getting VP approvals from both Risk and Compliance, and only licensed financial institutions are considered.
Merchant contacts
If we receive contacts on Bitcoin sales, instead of escalating further, kindly advise customers that they need to be licensed financial institutions to be considered for approval. However, there are some acceptable cases, as outlined below.
Acceptable Bitcoin business models for PayPal
Merchants with a business model that is related to Bitcoin but does not sell Bitcoins may be acceptable. For example: Merchants offering Bitcoin education packages Merchants selling computer hardware designed specifically for mining Bitcoins. In this case, kindly ensure that the merchant isn’t pre-selling and actually has the equipment ready to deliver.
Please note – All Bitcoin-related e-commerce should be considered high risk.

Any thoughts?

[1714244093]

1714244093

[Mike Christ]

I like how they try to put it lightly, and yet we all know they're a gaggle of dickheads.  Seems consistent with what they've been saying, though.

Please note – All Bitcoin-related e-commerce should be considered high risk.

   Great advice, PayPal.  Not that you'd be biased, heavens no, being the king of the chargeback and freezer of random accounts.

[bbit]

We knew this, it is in the TOS of paypal.

+1

[Luciddd]

I've heard they even had issues with people selling miners.. But I guess they still need to train a lot of staff lol..

[Mike Christ]

I wonder how long before eBay stops sellers saying that they accept bitcoin as payment in their product description...

I believe they've been trying to do this but don't really have a system to catch them all efficiently, yet.  In time, I don't doubt that posting anything about BTC in your listings will get them removed after quick review of a staff member.

[BitAddict]

I forgot ebay+paypal time ago. They take like 10% plus stupid conditions.
You can sell there to advertise your website, and after take your customers to your shop.

[Cyberdyne]

I wonder how long before eBay stops sellers saying that they accept bitcoin as payment in their product description...

I believe they've been trying to do this but don't really have a system to catch them all efficiently, yet.  In time, I don't doubt that posting anything about BTC in your listings will get them removed after quick review of a staff member.

Instead of mentioning 'bitcoin' or 'btc', simply post your bitcoin address. "I accept payments to: 1bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb". 
See if they do a regex to catch those ads!

[surebet]

In this case, kindly ensure that the merchant isn’t pre-selling and actually has the equipment ready to deliver.

I lol'ed.

[BitAddict]

I wonder how long before eBay stops sellers saying that they accept bitcoin as payment in their product description...

I believe they've been trying to do this but don't really have a system to catch them all efficiently, yet.  In time, I don't doubt that posting anything about BTC in your listings will get them removed after quick review of a staff member.

Instead of mentioning 'bitcoin' or 'btc', simply post your bitcoin address. "I accept payments to: 1bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb". 
See if they do a regex to catch those ads!

If you get lucky or they just use filters they will not cath those adds.

[kodo]

Boycott paypal they are scammers.

[suprabitz]

dont think ebay can outright ban bitcoins as payment for auctions... would have antitrust written all over it since they own paypal... but they can discourage it as they've discouraged check/MO payments

[kodo]

Paypal is a bitcoin hater

[sergio]

paypal has always been a Bitcoin hater, remember coinpal.
In the early days of Bitcoin you did not have to be a money service provider and Bitcoin was being sabotaged by paypal, so what they say now it is just an excuse for what they been doing all along.

[The 4ner]

I wonder how long before eBay stops sellers saying that they accept bitcoin as payment in their product description...

I believe they've been trying to do this but don't really have a system to catch them all efficiently, yet.  In time, I don't doubt that posting anything about BTC in your listings will get them removed after quick review of a staff member.

Guess we'll have to resort to using code names. 

[BitcoinBarrel]

Why do you need to be a licensed financial institution when Bitcoin isn't even a real currency?

[AliceWonder]

Why do you need to be a licensed financial institution when Bitcoin isn't even a real currency?

PayPal is a US company and there are federal regulations about exchanges.

That being said, I refuse to use paypal.

Back before broadband was common, I use to make a little side money selling Linux CD's with official updates - described them as burned.
Then I had payments reversed even after proof of delivery.

PayPal explained it was against their policy to allow software to be sold on CDR and my web page clearly indicated I was.

Um, duh. And the buyer saw that too.

But OK, lesson learned, change the web page.

Then I bought Photoshop 5 and what arrived was a CDR with a warez code, seller claimed legit.
I tried to get refund. Clearly I should since it was both warez and a CDR, no?

No. Seller had proof of delivery. Since it wasn't described as either on his web site, my only recovery option was civil suit.

PayPal lost me as a customer forever, their system is clearly designed to allow crooks to rip off honest people in both directions.

Now granted, with BitCoin the warez dealer still would have gotten me, but the person buying my Linux CDs would not.

[Mike Christ]

snip

And the moral of the story is,

Pirate ALL the software!  Or buy direct

[suryc]

Wouldn't say Paypal is anti-Bitcoin, but maybe just overly cautious.

Paypal President has stated publicly that he is finds bitcoin "fascinating" and that they are thinking about including it as a funding option eventually.

http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2013/05/23/why-paypal-is-bullish-on-bitcoin/
http://www.bloomberg.com/video/paypal-sees-20-billion-in-mobile-transactions-WlokACTBRterdjHAJGNB6w.html
http://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/04/24/paypal-president-is-fascinated-by-bitcoin-says-company-is-thinking-about-including-the-virtual-currency/

[AliceWonder]

snip

And the moral of the story is,

Pirate ALL the software!  Or buy direct

I don't pirate anything, I usually buy used (movie / music / software). But I rarely buy software anyway being a FOSS fan. Hard to evem find packaged software that can be sold used these days.

[maco]

Well said PayPal. Can't blame them for a quality response to the Bitcoin industry. They didn't seem to offend anyone.

[bitbybit2]

Wonderful memorandum from the people behind freezing accounts without explanation or reason. IMHO Paypal should be considered high risk online repository.

[CompNsci]

I have been stating that I prefer BTC payments in all my sales on eBay for over two years now. I've never had a single buyer use it, despite recently offering a 5% discount.

[RodeoX]

Please note – All PayPal-related e-commerce should be considered high risk.

Any one else notice their typo. I fixed it for them. 

[Beans]

They permanently banned my account for selling mining hardware. They also put a 180 day hold on my funds. Talk about assholes, I have a perfect ebay record.

[Cyberdyne]

I have a perfect ebay record.

Me too, I've never shopped there.

[data_teks]

dont think ebay can outright ban bitcoins as payment for auctions... would have antitrust written all over it since they own paypal... but they can discourage it as they've discouraged check/MO payments

Uhh, they've had strict accepted payment policies in place for years. You can view them here: http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/accepted-payments-policy.html

It's not an anti-trust issue.

[Trongersoll]

I wonder what they think of Butterfly Labs accepting Paypal.

[illpoet]

lol if you tell a paypal customer service guy you can't wait to see bitcoin destroy their company your account gets suspended for suspicious activity. at least mine did about 10 minutes after i hung up the call.  im pretty sure ebay won't let you use money orders as a payment option, i've had several auctions pulled because they contained a reference to money orders.  never sold anything for bitcoin tho, i've tried to avoid paypal ebay anymore since there is cheaper/better options.
i wondered about bfl too, since i saw where it said a vendor needed to have a product ready to ship. bfl isn't the only asic company accepting paypal

[Kruniac]

What's interesting about this information is that it isn't "canned". Someone at PayPal bothered to make a PowerPoint presentation about the Bitcoin situation. Specifically, verifying that a merchant isn't "pre-selling" shows that they are aware of the evolving technology involved with Bitcoins. I think that's pretty nifty.

[chsados]

Sorry to necro this thread... but it seems like paypal may have changed their stance in regards to mining hardware...

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1iyzkg/if_you_get_caught_selling_bitcoin_hardware_on/

[Pangia]

Merchants with a business model that is related to Bitcoin but does not sell Bitcoins may be acceptable. For example: Merchants offering Bitcoin education packages Merchants selling computer hardware designed specifically for mining Bitcoins. In this case, kindly ensure that the merchant isn’t pre-selling and actually has the equipment ready to deliver.
Please note – All Bitcoin-related e-commerce should be considered high risk.

Any thoughts?
[/quote]

Were they referring to BFL there? LoL

[TheFootMan]

Rules and regulations are only existing to protect the existing state and business systems. It's made to make it harder for the mom and pop stores and small businesses to enter the market. Everybody should be aware of this, and loudly voice their opinion to Paypal and other evil companies.

[Trongersoll]

Rules and regulations are only existing to protect the existing state and business systems. It's made to make it harder for the mom and pop stores and small businesses to enter the market. Everybody should be aware of this, and loudly voice their opinion to Paypal and other evil companies.

Not true. In this case it is to help cut their losses while providing the customer protection they promise.

[TheFootMan]

Rules and regulations are only existing to protect the existing state and business systems. It's made to make it harder for the mom and pop stores and small businesses to enter the market. Everybody should be aware of this, and loudly voice their opinion to Paypal and other evil companies.

Not true. In this case it is to help cut their losses while providing the customer protection they promise.

I was more aiming at the larger picture. And Paypal and customer protection? It seems they screw people over far too often.

But the fact they're concerned with bitcoin is good. It means that they're legitimately looking at bitcoin as a competitor/threat.

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.

[Trongersoll]

Rules and regulations are only existing to protect the existing state and business systems. It's made to make it harder for the mom and pop stores and small businesses to enter the market. Everybody should be aware of this, and loudly voice their opinion to Paypal and other evil companies.

Not true. In this case it is to help cut their losses while providing the customer protection they promise.

I was more aiming at the larger picture. And Paypal and customer protection? It seems they screw people over far too often.

But the fact they're concerned with bitcoin is good. It means that they're legitimately looking at bitcoin as a competitor/threat.

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.

Yes protect customers. I bought 10 ASICminers at once on ebay. I paid immediately. I eventually received a bogus shipping number. The seller didn't respond. Eventually, Paypal refunded my money. Say what you like, they did right by me.

[leopard2]

sorry but if you get scammed on Ebay it would be Ebays job to remedy that, not Painpals. But Ebay never does, they just blah-blah and make you fill out forms. Freezing the scammers Ebay account would be enough to force a refund in most cases, even if you paid cash or bank transfer or whatever. But Ebay does not help victims at all, instead they force them to use (their own affiliate!) Painpal if you want protection. In the EU, there are court rulings that prohibit Ebay from forcing people to use a specific payment service (antitrust legislation)!!

You don't understand Bitcoin, or cash, if you believe that payment providers are responsible for proper business transactions by making payments reversible.

Painpal is absolute rubbish. I got a Painpal policy, too: the "prefer a rusty nail in the knee before I deal with them" policy 

[LiteCoinGuy]

paypal sucks all the time.

[atomium]

everyone should just start selling on coingig.com

[mo_mo]

That means we can't sell miners on ebay?

[notme]

That means we can't sell miners on ebay?

Saw this on reddit:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1g23w2/paypal_email_to_employees_policy_regarding_bitcoin/

From a friend in Paypal, got this in an email today:
Clarification on Bitcoin merchants using PayPal 6/10/2013 8:58 AM (-05:00) Impacted market: EMEA
We’ve received a number of escalations regarding Bitcoin merchants using PayPal. Any merchant seeking to sell or buy Bitcoins with PayPal is operating as a financial exchange. Please be aware that Financial Exchange merchants are prohibited unless pre-approved by PayPal. This process involves getting VP approvals from both Risk and Compliance, and only licensed financial institutions are considered.
Merchant contacts
If we receive contacts on Bitcoin sales, instead of escalating further, kindly advise customers that they need to be licensed financial institutions to be considered for approval. However, there are some acceptable cases, as outlined below.
Acceptable Bitcoin business models for PayPal
Merchants with a business model that is related to Bitcoin but does not sell Bitcoins may be acceptable. For example: Merchants offering Bitcoin education packages Merchants selling computer hardware designed specifically for mining Bitcoins. In this case, kindly ensure that the merchant isn’t pre-selling and actually has the equipment ready to deliver.
Please note – All Bitcoin-related e-commerce should be considered high risk.

Any thoughts?

[TheFootMan]

lol if you tell a paypal customer service guy you can't wait to see bitcoin destroy their company your account gets suspended for suspicious activity. at least mine did about 10 minutes after i hung up the call. 

Hahahaha. That's so professional on Paypal's part! But I can't even imagine how badly it sucks to work in Paypal support.

Here you have one representative dealing with a bitcoin incident:

[AsiaNexgen]

Getting any type of response from PayPal is a miracle.  Their support is non-existant.

[jamesc760]

Paypal is one of the most hated companies in America. A few years ago, someone threw a bomb on their doorstep. Unfortunately, it only caused a superficial damage.

[TheFootMan]

Paypal is one of the most hated companies in America. A few years ago, someone threw a bomb on their doorstep. Unfortunately, it only caused a superficial damage.

I'm very glad that bitcoin is now taking some of their market share.

[hayek]

Typical Government

You don't get to play the game unless we let you. Oh by the way we only let our friends play the game and you're not important enough to be our friend.


Looks Paypal is trying to be flexible but it's just not worth it to try working with them. We should focus on systems and infrastructure that allow us to function outside of their sandbox. They should be asking us to play our game.

[keatonatron]

Wouldn't say Paypal is anti-Bitcoin, but maybe just overly cautious.

Paypal President has stated publicly that he is finds bitcoin "fascinating" and that they are thinking about including it as a funding option eventually.

http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2013/05/23/why-paypal-is-bullish-on-bitcoin/
http://www.bloomberg.com/video/paypal-sees-20-billion-in-mobile-transactions-WlokACTBRterdjHAJGNB6w.html
http://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/04/24/paypal-president-is-fascinated-by-bitcoin-says-company-is-thinking-about-including-the-virtual-currency/

I doubt that PayPal will ever adopt bitcoin, they don't want to promote it as more people will realise thay they can avoid PayPal altogether and not pay a 3% transaction fee.

I don't know... People still use AOL, even though it's completely unnecessary. No matter how common bitcoin gets, there will still be many (probably old) people who don't understand it well enough to buy coins direct and will happily use paypal to send bitcoin payments.

Also, the word will get out eventually--paypal might as well make a few bucks along the way. It won't earn them any less than doing nothing.

[Fiyasko]

We knew this, it is in the TOS of paypal.

+1

I didn't, and the guy above me doesnt know that people are not supposed to post "useless" posts such as "+1" "this" "watching" "^" "same" you get the idea...
Its in the forums rules.../guidelines

[AliceWonder]

We knew this, it is in the TOS of paypal.

+1

I didn't, and the guy above me doesnt know that people are not supposed to post "useless" posts such as "+1" "this" "watching" "^" "same" you get the idea...
Its in the forums rules.../guidelines

Wow, censorship everywhere you turn.

Who determines what is useless?

++ is actually beneficial to some because when scimming a thread, it helps you identify posts other found beneficial and you can pay more attention them.

[leopard2]

I suppose Paypal is hiring ex-NSA employees and the like, and outsources work to mental institutions, too.

Luckily there is bitmit.

[Fiyasko]

We knew this, it is in the TOS of paypal.

+1

I didn't, and the guy above me doesnt know that people are not supposed to post "useless" posts such as "+1" "this" "watching" "^" "same" you get the idea...
Its in the forums rules.../guidelines

Wow, censorship everywhere you turn.

Who determines what is useless?

++ is actually beneficial to some because when scimming a thread, it helps you identify posts other found beneficial and you can pay more attention them.

Sorry for the confusion guys, Heres a link to the guidelines, my brain must have slowly warped it overtime, scroll down a bit in the thread and you'll see comments about the +1's
My bad! https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=14356.0

[RapidCoinz]

Paypal have a murky history of saddling up besides 'authorities', so this statement comes as nothing short of standard behaviour expected from this outfit
I favor boycotting 

[EscrowBTC]

Guys, stop using PayPal.

Have you ever noticed that simple things are being destroyed or changed by dumb owners?

[TheFootMan]

Guys, stop using PayPal.

Have you ever noticed that simple things are being destroyed or changed by dumb owners?

You mean those with fancy clothes, Ipads and rich friends? 

[lok1]

I already stop using paypal since few years ago, i have very bad experience with paypal
on my very first transaction to buy a domain cancelled because paypal make refund it self without my authority, they said my paypal account get compromised and needed ID photo to unblock my account

[LostDutchman]

IMHO, using Paypal for any kind of cryptocurrency related transaction is just too risky.

Both the sender's and the receiver's accounts could be locked for up to 180 days simply by attempting a single transaction.

I have had a Paypal account for years and it is simply not worth the risk to use it for crypto.

My $.02.

[beetcoin]

using paypal for ANYTHING is just bad news. unfortunately, i currently sell on ebay and it is currently my best option.

if i had a choice, i wouldn't use visa/mastercard/paypal. it seems like their business model is to get big, destroy competition (or limit it to an oligopoly), and then charge exorbitant rates.

when i sell something on ebay, i have to subtract the 15% that goes to ebay to calculate whether it's even worth selling at all. that is a ridiculous fee to charge considering what they provide, and that # is only going to get higher and higher.

[LostDutchman]

using paypal for ANYTHING is just bad news. unfortunately, i currently sell on ebay and it is currently my best option.

if i had a choice, i wouldn't use visa/mastercard/paypal. it seems like their business model is to get big, destroy competition (or limit it to an oligopoly), and then charge exorbitant rates.

when i sell something on ebay, i have to subtract the 15% that goes to ebay to calculate whether it's even worth selling at all. that is a ridiculous fee to charge considering what they provide, and that # is only going to get higher and higher.

I am using Craigslist and ebay classifides (Free) and am having great success.  I eventually sell everything I list with no comebacks.

I do sell autos on ebay motors at which site sellers are allowed to specify things like wire transfers, which is the only way that I will accept payment other than cash in hand.

My $.02.

[dominicwin]

What do people really use PayPal for other than eBay?