2013-06-13 San Francisco Chronicle - This Is Litecoin, The 'Silver' to Bitcoin's

[SgtSpike]

Hadn't seen an article on Litecoins in the mainstream news before...

Bitcoin isn't the only cryptocurrency out there.

An alternative called Litecoin is starting to gain traction.

Bitcoin and Litecoin are incredibly similar. Both are decentralized electronic currency, meaning that they aren't linked in any way to big banks. They're independent. And where the money supply of US dollars is always fluctuating, both Bitcoin and Litecoin will reach eventually reach a gross sum and maintain a finite, unchanging supply.

Circulation of Bitcoins will be capped at 21 million, Litecoin at 84 million.

Think of Litecoin as the silver to Bitcoin's gold. Just like in the physical silver and gold markets, Litecoin is trading at less than Bitcoin, but there's more of it.

...

http://www.sfgate.com/technology/businessinsider/article/This-Is-Litecoin-The-Silver-to-Bitcoin-s-Gold-4598910.php

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[bit777]

Litecoin will pick up too sooner or later. As long as Btc grows, Ltc will grow with it.

[Stephen Gornick]

http://www.sfgate.com/technology/businessinsider/article/This-Is-Litecoin-The-Silver-to-Bitcoin-s-Gold-4598910.php

This was originally from Business Insider:
 - http://www.businessinsider.com/what-is-litecoin-2013-6

Incidentally, I find it irresponsible at best to write about Litecoin to a general audience without discussing proof-of-work, the risk of 51% attack and the difference between Bitcoin and Litecoin in this regard.

[SgtSpike]

http://www.sfgate.com/technology/businessinsider/article/This-Is-Litecoin-The-Silver-to-Bitcoin-s-Gold-4598910.php

This was originally from Business Insider:
 - http://www.businessinsider.com/what-is-litecoin-2013-6

Incidentally, I find it irresponsible at best to write about Litecoin to a general audience without discussing proof-of-work, the risk of 51% attack and the difference between Bitcoin and Litecoin in this regard.

Agreed.  I'm not a big fan of Litecoin myself, but I do think it could stick around for a while just from momentum.

[N12]

http://www.sfgate.com/technology/businessinsider/article/This-Is-Litecoin-The-Silver-to-Bitcoin-s-Gold-4598910.php

This was originally from Business Insider:
 - http://www.businessinsider.com/what-is-litecoin-2013-6

Incidentally, I find it irresponsible at best to write about Litecoin to a general audience without discussing proof-of-work, the risk of 51% attack and the difference between Bitcoin and Litecoin in this regard.

Indeed, all proof of work based scamcoins are doomed unless they can overtake Bitcoin. The longer they coexist, the more probable an attack from Bitcoin supporters becomes. A different algorithm only delays that.

[Stephen Gornick]

Indeed, all proof of work based scamcoins are doomed unless they can overtake Bitcoin.

I wouldn't go that far.   Protection simply needs to be at a sufficient level to where performing an attack is both economically costly and unprofitable.  Litecoin might reach that, but I don't know that today it is sufficiently protected.      

[cbeast]

Litecoin has nothing new to add. Bitcoin has all the development and tools. The altcoin is a good experiment, but it solves no problem that hasn't been solved for bitcoin.

[TraderTimm]

There's also the painfully obvious point that if Litecoin had anything to offer, the main Bitcoin client would be soft-forked to include it, rendering Litecoin useless. (again.)

[Brunic]

Indeed, all proof of work based scamcoins are doomed unless they can overtake Bitcoin.

I wouldn't go that far.   Protection simply needs to be at a sufficient level to where performing an attack is both economically costly and unprofitable.  Litecoin might reach that, but I don't know that today it is sufficiently protected.      

Was Bitcoin back in September 2012 was sufficiently protected? Because right now, Litecoin network is at this level.

Litecoin has nothing new to add. Bitcoin has all the development and tools. The altcoin is a good experiment, but it solves no problem that hasn't been solved for bitcoin.

But Bitcoin itself is a point of failure. A successful 51% attack or a mistake creating an hardfork that can't be solved without hard losses can crush the whole crypto-currency economy. If multiples crypto-currencies emerge, you have some redundancy in your economy. If Bitcoin have some serious problems, you can switch to Litecoin and still keep your business running with the same currency model.

If you want to get out of Bitcoin, without alt-coins, your only choice is to go back to fiat. Having Litecoin as an option gives you the possibility of hedging against Bitcoin.

[cbeast]

The silver to bitcoin isn't litecoin, it is silver.

[oleganza]

The silver to bitcoin isn't litecoin, it is silver.

This.

Litecoin will grow as long as there are bored teenagers with free GPUs mining it. While the rest of the industry deciding where to invest $: in BTC mining hardware or LTC mining hardware will all go to BTC as it is more expensive. In the end, the hashing power of LTC will be laughable comparing to BTC and overall support among non-geeky merchants will be in favor of BTC (because there is network effect).

Fundamentally, LTC provides no extra security or features over Bitcoin (I think it's not worse either, except for shorter block intervals lead to 4x more of wasted computing time — during block propagation). "Max amount of coins" is nonsense — it's just a measure of divisibility of the total supply. With 2100 trillion BTC units we won't need any more divisibility any time soon. Time for first confirmation is nonsense. It still does not help with instant transactions and provides 4x less security than 1 BTC confirmation. You have to wait *time*, not *blocks* to get some level of security. Scrypt is different from double SHA256, but it's irrelevant for mining. The only meaningful thing it does is that it protects weaker network from Bitcoin ASICs that may try 51% attack or temporarily increase difficulty way too much (like what happened with Terracoin).

Litecoin is here only because CPU/GPU miners who lose to ASICs, play this game in the meantime. If it does not fade out in a couple of years, it will still be very limited speculative game while BTC will grow further and expand to more and more merchants. Economically, there is no reason for people to use both LTC and BTC and have both markets constantly expanding.

[bitcool]

Most anti-LTC arguments here have been thrown around since the beginning of Litecoin, yet both its network hashing power and prices just kept growing.

Some Bitcoin oligarchy need to have a reality check.

[Brunic]

This.

Litecoin will grow as long as there are bored teenagers with free GPUs mining it. While the rest of the industry deciding where to invest $: in BTC mining hardware or LTC mining hardware will all go to BTC as it is more expensive. In the end, the hashing power of LTC will be laughable comparing to BTC and overall support among non-geeky merchants will be in favor of BTC (because there is network effect).

Fundamentally, LTC provides no extra security or features over Bitcoin (I think it's not worse either, except for shorter block intervals lead to 4x more of wasted computing time — during block propagation). "Max amount of coins" is nonsense — it's just a measure of divisibility of the total supply. With 2100 trillion BTC units we won't need any more divisibility any time soon. Time for first confirmation is nonsense. It still does not help with instant transactions and provides 4x less security than 1 BTC confirmation. You have to wait *time*, not *blocks* to get some level of security. Scrypt is different from double SHA256, but it's irrelevant for mining. The only meaningful thing it does is that it protects weaker network from Bitcoin ASICs that may try 51% attack or temporarily increase difficulty way too much (like what happened with Terracoin).

Litecoin is here only because CPU/GPU miners who lose to ASICs, play this game in the meantime. If it does not fade out in a couple of years, it will still be very limited speculative game while BTC will grow further and expand to more and more merchants. Economically, there is no reason for people to use both LTC and BTC and have both markets constantly expanding.

Litecoin success is not dependant on the variables of the software, it's not about being faster or more secure (or less, but whatever). Litecoin success is dependant on the network effect, like every succesful currency. I'm not going to argue about the technical checklist of any coin, since there is absolutely no proof that any variable is better than other ones. There's absolutely no point in arguing and comparing Scrypt or SHA-256, or whatever time confirmation, because they are only variables without any context.

But, when you mix the context AND the variables, you can get interesting results. Scrypt algorithm, in the context of ASIC appearing on the mining market of SHA-256 suddenly changes everything. I consider the GPU miners crucial people in the adoption of a crypto-currency. GPU miners are average joe with advanced knowledge of computers (by advanced, I mean more than the usual PC user). They are competent enough to use crypto-currencies, and there is a lot of them. They are probably more easier to convince to crypto-currencies than any investors/merchants/bank/businesses/general population. Why? They have:
- Money
- Good knowledge of computers (currently required to use crypto-currencies)
- They like computers! They could do mining for fun. Proof is in the mining section of any *coin forum.

They are the ideal population to kickstart a crypto-currency.

I know there is wishful thinking (ASIC are going to make GPU disappear, like magic! for real!), but these people are going to continue their existence. Their GPU are still going to exist and be used for something. Currently, ASIC are kicking the GPU miners out of the Bitcoin market. Maybe all of those people will stop their Bitcoin mining and stuff their GPU up their ass (or sell on eBay, or anything to make the GPU disappear), but it's not going to happen. GPU miners are going to regroup somewhere, they will find a new mining hobby. My guess is that this new mining hobby will be Litecoin. My guess is pretty good at the moment, since the Litecoin network is the equivalent of Bitcoin network of September-October 2012. It means that, in theory, ALL the Bitcoin miners back from September are currently mining Litecoins.

This. is. huge.

ASICs, by pushing out the GPUs out of the mining market, are kickstarting Litecoin and providing the so-needed network effect to this currency. In a way, Litecoin is simply lucky of having the right variables for the right context.

I strongly believe that the GPU miners are the makers of any coin. If you want your coin to succeed, you need those GPU miners.

[knight22]

As a bitcoin user, I don't see why I should bother with another crypto that brings me absolutly no more advantages than bitcoin.
On the user point of view, what's the point of using litecoin when I can use bitcoin instead
Not that I'm against litecoin and other cryptos. It's just that I really, really dont care about them until one of them brings more significant advantages.

Litecoin will always stay in the shadow of bitcoin. No more.

[knight22]

And as a speculator:
 
litecoin = more risky than bitcoin + no inovation = no thanks

[Brunic]

As a bitcoin user, I don't see why I should bother with another crypto that brings me absolutly no more advantages than bitcoin.
On the user point of view, what's the point of using litecoin when I can use bitcoin instead
Not that I'm against litecoin and other cryptos. It's just that I really, really dont care about them until one of them brings more significant advantages.

Litecoin will always stay in the shadow of bitcoin. No more.

Because it's money and it has value. Whatever currency is #1 or #2 is somewhat irrelevant. If you feel you've been paid at the right price, who cares about the name of the currency?

For your information, Litecoin market value is the same as the Bitcoin market value of last year. If Bitcoin last year was good enough as a currency, Litecoin today is also good enough as a currency. As long as you have confidence in the value of the currency, everything is fine.

Also, I'm not a big fan of alt-coins. They are interesting experiment, but considering that around 95% of them have failed, they are usually pump and dump schemes or simply useless. I don't really trust Namecoin and even if I think that PPCoin has an interesting concept, I'm not touching that with a 50-feet pole. The rest is bullcrap. I only support Litecoin because of:
- The growing network effect
- The dev team is awesome

In the end, if we use the success average of alt-coins, it's probably safer to stay away of any of them anyway. If there is ever a Bitcoin killer coin, it's going to be a really long shot (really long).

[kjlimo]

As a bitcoin user, I don't see why I should bother with another crypto that brings me absolutly no more advantages than bitcoin.
On the user point of view, what's the point of using litecoin when I can use bitcoin instead
Not that I'm against litecoin and other cryptos. It's just that I really, really dont care about them until one of them brings more significant advantages.

Litecoin will always stay in the shadow of bitcoin. No more.

You can be as logical as you want, but if the market decide to adopt another coin for irrational reasons, there can be large opportunities.

Also, other coins do bring new things to the table, but most people here don't care about the algorithm or how fast transaction confirms are...

Lastly, PPc really brings a new proof-of-stake concept, which is why I own plenty of PPC.

Feel free to PM me your email if you'd like me to include you on my Alternate Cryptocurrency newsletter. 

I should be sending an update within the coming weeks.  Many coin prices are down now, so there are buying opportunities.

[oleganza]

I only support Litecoin because of:
- The growing network effect
- The dev team is awesome

In the end, if we use the success average of alt-coins, it's probably safer to stay away of any of them anyway. If there is ever a Bitcoin killer coin, it's going to be a really long shot (really long).

Lets suppose Bitcoin continues growing and captures meaningful portion of worldwide market and grows beyond that. What would be the reason for people to have X% of their transactions go via LTC, where X is not close to zero and is not going towards zero? In other words, what would be incentive for to use LTC over BTC? If there will be LTC-only merchants, why wouldn't they also accept BTC? If there are no LTC-only merchants, but some BTC-only merchants, why would anybody keep LTC? Why would BTC merchants care to also accept LTC if BTC is accepted wider? Or, what are the dynamics that could lead to parallel acceptance of BTC and LTC throughout the market?

Another question: 500 years ago, would people use silver side-by-side with the gold as a currency if gold was easier to divide in smaller (cheaper) pieces and reassemble? In other words, if the main physical limitation of gold wasn't that limiting for small daily transactions? Wouldn't network effect of the gold eliminate any need in silver-as-a-currency then? If not, why?

PS. I don't accept argument "because there are miners mining it". Miners mine *because* somebody will trade their goods for minted coins (or they speculate that it will be the case in the future), not the other way around. Early bitcoins were mined and purchased because of the expectation of future worthiness and similar recognition of fundamental properties by other early adopters.

[meanig]

Litecoin success is not dependant on the variables of the software, it's not about being faster or more secure (or less, but whatever). Litecoin success is dependant on the network effect, like every succesful currency. I'm not going to argue about the technical checklist of any coin, since there is absolutely no proof that any variable is better than other ones. There's absolutely no point in arguing and comparing Scrypt or SHA-256, or whatever time confirmation, because they are only variables without any context.

But, when you mix the context AND the variables, you can get interesting results. Scrypt algorithm, in the context of ASIC appearing on the mining market of SHA-256 suddenly changes everything. I consider the GPU miners crucial people in the adoption of a crypto-currency. GPU miners are average joe with advanced knowledge of computers (by advanced, I mean more than the usual PC user). They are competent enough to use crypto-currencies, and there is a lot of them. They are probably more easier to convince to crypto-currencies than any investors/merchants/bank/businesses/general population. Why? They have:
- Money
- Good knowledge of computers (currently required to use crypto-currencies)
- They like computers! They could do mining for fun. Proof is in the mining section of any *coin forum.

They are the ideal population to kickstart a crypto-currency.

I know there is wishful thinking (ASIC are going to make GPU disappear, like magic! for real!), but these people are going to continue their existence. Their GPU are still going to exist and be used for something. Currently, ASIC are kicking the GPU miners out of the Bitcoin market. Maybe all of those people will stop their Bitcoin mining and stuff their GPU up their ass (or sell on eBay, or anything to make the GPU disappear), but it's not going to happen. GPU miners are going to regroup somewhere, they will find a new mining hobby. My guess is that this new mining hobby will be Litecoin. My guess is pretty good at the moment, since the Litecoin network is the equivalent of Bitcoin network of September-October 2012. It means that, in theory, ALL the Bitcoin miners back from September are currently mining Litecoins.

This. is. huge.

ASICs, by pushing out the GPUs out of the mining market, are kickstarting Litecoin and providing the so-needed network effect to this currency. In a way, Litecoin is simply lucky of having the right variables for the right context.

I strongly believe that the GPU miners are the makers of any coin. If you want your coin to succeed, you need those GPU miners.

As an average Joe with an average GPU I started to give up on Bitcoin mining around October 2012. I was only making a trickle of coins compared to what I had been mining before so I decided to leave it to the professionals. I don't see how Litecoin will attract any new average Joe miners when the network is already so powerful. 

[Brunic]

Lets suppose Bitcoin continues growing and captures meaningful portion of worldwide market and grows beyond that. What would be the reason for people to have X% of their transactions go via LTC, where X is not close to zero and is not going towards zero? In other words, what would be incentive for to use LTC over BTC? If there will be LTC-only merchants, why wouldn't they also accept BTC? If there are no LTC-only merchants, but some BTC-only merchants, why would anybody keep LTC? Why would BTC merchants care to also accept LTC if BTC is accepted wider? Or, what are the dynamics that could lead to parallel acceptance of BTC and LTC throughout the market?

What would be the reason for people to have X% of their transactions go via LTC, where X is not close to zero and is not going towards zero? In other words, what would be incentive for to use LTC over BTC? If there will be LTC-only merchants, why wouldn't they also accept BTC?

The same reason why people accept EUR, USD or CAD. How many different currencies a business like McDonald has to manage? Why does this business accept them? Simply because they recognize the value of it and those customers have that currency in their pockets. Merchants are simply interesting in getting what is in your pockets. Litecoin market is more or less 50 million$ right now and the only way of getting a piece of the pie is by accepting it. At the end, it's the same crypto-currency model with some different variables, a new name and a market to back it up. The foundations are still the same.

If there are no LTC-only merchants, but some BTC-only merchants, why would anybody keep LTC? Why would BTC merchants care to also accept LTC if BTC is accepted wider? Or, what are the dynamics that could lead to parallel acceptance of BTC and LTC throughout the market?

If we speak exclusively about the merchants, like I said, it's about what is in your pockets. If we speak from an investor/speculator point of view, it could about the possibility of hedging the currencies.

I'll give you a real life exemple, myself. I currently don't trust the Bitcoin value, I think it's going down because of the bubble. I also think that Litecoin is overvalued(the whole market is overvalued because of that bubble), but for many reasons, I think there's a possibility that a transfer of wealth occur from Bitcoin to Litecoin similar to the transfer of hashpower, so, while Bitcoin goes down, Litecoin could hold its value. I wanted to keep some money on the market, didn't want to get everything in fiat, so currently, I have 0 Bitcoins and a couple of thousands of Litecoins.

I'm not shopping with Bitcoin unless that bubble deflates completely, so if you want the couple of thousands of value in my pockets, accept Litecoins.

Another question: 500 years ago, would people use silver side-by-side with the gold as a currency if gold was easier to divide in smaller (cheaper) pieces and reassemble? In other words, if the main physical limitation of gold wasn't that limiting for small daily transactions? Wouldn't network effect of the gold eliminate any need in silver-as-a-currency then? If not, why?

PS. I don't accept argument "because there are miners mining it". Miners mine *because* somebody will trade their goods for minted coins (or they speculate that it will be the case in the future), not the other way around. Early bitcoins were mined and purchased because of the expectation of future worthiness and similar recognition of fundamental properties by other early adopters.

I'm not a specialist of 500 years ago and precious metals. But from what I know, you can trade silver, since it has value for others. For the rest, I really don't know, I wasn't there when they were minting gold coins or silver coins. Don't take the "silver to Bitcoin" too seriouly. That's marketing fluff.

Miners are used for adoption of the currency. The more there is miners (I'm talking as an individual person), the more the currency is distributed. When more and more people have Litecoins in their pockets and give that coin some value, well, you have the network effect required. As for the GPU miners, it's about the adoption. Between buying some coin from a shady website, buying ASICs from a shady company or simply flipping the switch on your GPU to "make money" and try this out, I think that GPU mining is a really damn attractive option. When ASIC will turn GPU mining useless, those new adopters discovering *coins for the first time will go for Litecoin first. We're already teaching a ton of new people on the Litecoin forum how to do mining. For some of them, Litecoin is their first crypto-currency, not Bitcoin.

 

As an average Joe with an average GPU I started to give up on Bitcoin mining around October 2012. I was only making a trickle of coins compared to what I had been mining before so I decided to leave it to the professionals. I don't see how Litecoin will attract any new average Joe miners when the network is already so powerful. 

Well, that the network is already that powerful is proof that Litecoin attracts new miners.