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Author Topic: [DVC]DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated  (Read 953999 times)
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weisoq
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January 30, 2014, 11:54:35 AM
 #4761

I am seriously uncomfortable with the entire thing, to write for Devtome forces me to become a currency trader, something I wouldn't do in any other environment to get paid for my work.  I suspect a lot of newcomers are going to be challenged by it as well so a bot would be awesome and might make this just a little less traumatic for some of us Smiley
I look at it quite differently. Payment is in devcoins, and it's a payment for open source work. Pricing a devcoin is a function of assessing what value you think they bring or add to a world without them. It would be quite possible for an exchange of dvc to flow with less reference to fiat, if price could be efficiently aligned to effort.

Devtome and all devcoin payment methods should challenge recipients in realising returns. Price risk and implied value is what ties buyers, users and developers together in shared interest.

If for example a bunch of GIMP and mozilla developers were regular devcoin recipients, then I'd know that buying and using dvc contributed to creating and improving stuff I use and value. That in turn adds value to dvc. What those developers do with their dvc is down to them. They could for example, give them to blender developers or hypothetically pay their plumber if he accepted dvc.

Defining dvc as only a stepping stone to fiat misses the point. Before recipients received dvc they didn't receive anything, so devcoin doesn't owe them a easy guaranteed fiat return. Realising returns should be a challenge forced upon those people and the contribution of a devcoin economy itself.
Quote
...I think though, that real success in trading means actually hoping and even being a bit delighted by fear/negative forces to help with that success. In the end, those who might not be as hard-nosed or cant afford to lose so they react to fear, are always going to be the losers. (IMO)
The first step of trading success is generally about having a view - whether that's simple direction, volatility, mean reversion, relative value etc - or any fortune is just luck. But I don't think the average dvc earner needs to be playing the markets. Put simply, if enough people think devcoins are worth more than their price then value will rise, and vice versa.

Frankly, nobody worries about the price rising. Worries about price falls by recipients can only be based on a fear that 1) I or others have been overpaid; 2) Other people think we've been overpaid. That means your currency exchange challenge isn't really about trading complications, it's because there's not enough price stability yet. And that's because (crypto speculation aside) payments aren't yet aligned to work value, according to those buying/selling dvc. That needs resolving by growing application and stability, not trading facilitation.
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January 30, 2014, 12:27:43 PM
Last edit: January 30, 2014, 12:47:26 PM by melodiem
 #4762

Defining dvc as only a stepping stone to fiat misses the point. Before recipients received dvc they didn't receive anything, so devcoin doesn't owe them a easy guaranteed fiat return. Realising returns should be a challenge forced upon those people and the contribution of a devcoin economy itself.

In the case of developers I totally agree with you, and from what I think I understand, DVC will make a way for that to change and the more activity and interest in DVC, the sooner/faster that will happen?

BUT

I followed an ad to get here that said "get paid for writing", so I think it is reasonable that people also following that same advertisement (that really is pretty much everywhere) will expect to get paid for their writing.

I hope one day they can pay the plumber with DVC, but right now it isn't an option, so the additional challenge only throttles growth of interest and activity.

If there was already enough growth and slowing it made sense (it might, is that an inflation issue?) then I would understand why it seems important ALL devtome writers/devcoin community contributors become traders.

As it stands, from a simple chicks point of view, Im delighted to see technology on the horizon that might just Keep It Simple Wink

Quote
But I don't think the average dvc earner needs to be playing the markets. Put simply, if enough people think devcoins are worth more than their price then value will rise, and vice versa.
how long do you see before that will happen?

Quote
your currency exchange challenge isn't really about trading complications, it's because there's not enough price stability yet.

Not really..

Its the risk, and the lack of knowledge that is the challenge - the language around trading, the websites I have to join (vicurex isnt exactly newbie friendly) then I have to know how to put my stuff up there heck, apparently I can even accidentally put it on the wrong side? and lose the lot in my first moments like other people have.

Price stability is the one thing outside my control, that I personally cannot screw up so to be honest, its not my biggest concern. (not that I dont care...just comparatively)

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January 30, 2014, 01:11:37 PM
 #4763

..
One of my first guides was a  guide on Dr.Mundo. This character can fill different roles so the gameplay will be totally different but his native "skills" will remain the same. I was on my way to write the second guide on the same character but I was annoyed that I will have to copy/paste an entire paragraph. So I asked weisoq if some Tag or some code existed to cut off a paragraph from the word count script ! Weisoq answered that it didnt existed yet. He said that I will have to put some links from the original page. I wasn't satisfied with this solution as I want any guide to be a "stand alone" and so to gather the whole information on the same page. So in the end I didn't wrote the second guide at all as it will not be as "reader friendly" as I want. Maybe I will do it later with the actual solution. But i will be happy to copy paste my skill description and cut it off the count if this solution is available some day.
..

Devtome.py now checks for identical sentences, and doesn't add the copies to the word count, only the original sentence is counted. So please copy and paste skill descriptions and everything else. Templates are good. There is no longer a need to use a wiki tag to insert identical paragraphs.

That's even better thanks for this feature.



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weisoq
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January 30, 2014, 01:57:36 PM
 #4764

In the case of developers I totally agree with you...
Yes and it's get paid in devcoins, not $. 'In the case of developers...' - this is where I have a fundamental disagreement. It's as much down to writers and perhaps artists and musicians to build interest as it is developers. Writers should be selling their dvc to people who value their writings. Likewise other areas. If interest can't be drummed up then what's the value of their work?

The 'challenge' is the core of what devcoin's about. If growth of interest and activity is being throttled it's because those benefitting from dvc aren't catalysing equivalent forward interest. And so they should find realising gains difficult because they don't yet deserve for it to be easy. Yes that's a bit chicken-and-egg but there's so much talk here that seems to ignore the basic issue that in order to pay there have to buyers.  

You keep referring to 'traders' but I also don't get that point. DVC is obviously global. If you found a job that paid in £ then you'd want to exchange it to A$ at a bank, or turn it down because it's too complicated. It's the same for devcoins. It seems what you mean by 'trading' is risk of losing money compared to what you expected. Well that risk is down to you and every other devcoiner working to support it. If writers in particular find the process difficult then it should be writers who find a way to make it easier and more efficient.

Quote
how long do you see before that will happen?
I have no idea b/c it depends on a growing community doing enough to warrant it, and others not yet involved thinking the same.

Quote
Not really.. Its the risk, and the lack of knowledge that is the challenge - the language around trading...
If you're not that concerned about price stability then why all the talk of of trading risk and prices?

A few questions:
1) Did you buy dvc before earning them because you valued the work you saw?
2) Have you bought any since for similar reasons (not speculative)?
3) Have you personally traded your dvc for fiat with others who valued your work specifically?
4) Or to anyone who just appreciated the general concept?

You don't have to answer those, it's to make the point that price and sustainability is supported by value. I think there's a really big gulf here between tech and non-tech perceptions of what devcoin is meant to offer that chips away at the foundation of reward for open source work (and I'm not a techie fwiw). That's a moan at the incentive structure that causes it, not you.
-----
(You can only sell what you have on vircurex, so can't lose everything and don't need to worry about that).
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January 30, 2014, 02:28:51 PM
 #4765

Bots are generally closely guarded secrets because they're so powerful. They take away the emotions of trading, so you can set a strategy and just let it go


I am seriously uncomfortable with the entire thing, to write for Devtome forces me to become a currency trader, something I wouldn't do in any other environment to get paid for my work.  I suspect a lot of newcomers are going to be challenged by it as well so a bot would be awesome and might make this just a little less traumatic for some of us Smiley

If you are able to make one for commercial sale, would it ever be affordable for a writer or developer being paid in DVC?


I may be able to write up a quick PHP implementation of the EMT volatility bot, and people could deposit their devtome DVC and the bot could trade their DVC online.  Shares of the trading profit could be sold as well, which would give Hunterbunter another six shares too!

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January 30, 2014, 02:43:50 PM
 #4766

Bots are generally closely guarded secrets because they're so powerful. They take away the emotions of trading, so you can set a strategy and just let it go


I am seriously uncomfortable with the entire thing, to write for Devtome forces me to become a currency trader, something I wouldn't do in any other environment to get paid for my work.  I suspect a lot of newcomers are going to be challenged by it as well so a bot would be awesome and might make this just a little less traumatic for some of us Smiley

If you are able to make one for commercial sale, would it ever be affordable for a writer or developer being paid in DVC?


I may be able to write up a quick PHP implementation of the EMT volatility bot, and people could deposit their devtome DVC and the bot could trade their DVC online.  Shares of the trading profit could be sold as well, which would give Hunterbunter another six shares too!

I would rather have a python version myself so I can watch it in a console rather then having to rely on a web server and connection to it through a browser or what not to run it.

Earn Devcoins by Writing | The Young Mage | DevCoin / DevTome Info Prototype Website
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January 30, 2014, 03:22:45 PM
 #4767

Quote
Yes and it's get paid in devcoins, not $.

There are a lot of those ads yes but also heap more saying just "get paid" or "make money writing". Even the review on Money and Potatoes starts off with "Freelance Writer? Earn Some Extra Money With Devtome".

I am trying to suggest that more people ARE going to come for that reason and its worth looking at ways to make it simpler because that will generate more interest.

You keep referring to 'traders' but I also don't get that point. DVC is obviously global. If you found a job that paid in £ then you'd want to exchange it to A$ at a bank, or turn it down because it's too complicated. It's the same for devcoins. It seems what you mean by 'trading' is risk of losing money compared to what you expected. Well that risk is down to you and every other devcoiner working to support it.

I am not trying to argue, just trying to clarify my perspective but I accept other currencies for work already and pay out in other currencies, it either goes through an online gateway or by direct debit to my bank - there is no complicated, just a fee. BTC has to be exchanged for FIAT but even that is not complex, localbitcoins and word of mouth works well enough.


Quote
It seems what you mean by 'trading' is risk of losing money compared to what you expected. Well that risk is down to you and every other devcoiner working to support it.

I know its down to me, I really am doing my best to contribute and I hope, when I actually get to "trading" something I get it right because getting it wrong seems to be causing everyone else problems .. (going by the previous conversations on here re: newbies dumping and selling at the wrong times etc so value drops)

Quote
If writers in particular find the process difficult then it should be writers who find a way to make it easier and more efficient.

I am trying and I am 1 writer Smiley

Quote
A few questions:
1) Did you buy dvc before earning them because you valued the work you saw?
2) Have you bought any since for similar reasons (not speculative)?
3) Have you personally traded your dvc for fiat with others who valued your work specifically?
4) Or to anyone who just appreciated the general concept?

No, but I am not sure they are necessary steps to joining or contributing to the community are they?


Quote
If you're not that concerned about price stability then why all the talk of of trading risk and prices?

 Undecided I thought I explained...the stability of the price is not in my control so I cant screw it up but I can screw up the trading part ..

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January 30, 2014, 04:19:44 PM
 #4768

There are a lot of those ads yes but also heap more saying just "get paid" or "make money writing". Even the review on Money and Potatoes starts off with "Freelance Writer? Earn Some Extra Money With Devtome". I am trying to suggest that more people ARE going to come for that reason and its worth looking at ways to make it simpler because that will generate more interest...

...I am trying and I am 1 writer Smiley

...No, but I am not sure they are necessary steps to joining or contributing to the community are they?


 Undecided I thought I explained...the stability of the price is not in my control so I cant screw it up but I can screw up the trading part ..
I was referring to devcoin conceptually, I don't know about ads or what they say. Simpler is good, pandering to one-sided trade flow or interest isn't.

I'm not criticising you, this is just a discussion. I have views, and find inertia/perceptions that I think are counter-productive grating. But that seems to be my viewpoint as the outlier because counterpart opinions over time haven't changed, and is certainly not annoyance at you. Your ideas and input have been positive and I try to give constructive criticism.

No they're not necessary steps to anything except the sustainability of devcoin. Either devcoin buyers are real interest, or just speculators/charity. If earners are perpetually selling to the latter then at some point this stops working. That's not how I understood the project; if it's a sustained dynamic I don't think it works.
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January 30, 2014, 04:37:24 PM
 #4769

Only few cryptos can be traded against fiat actually (BTC-E list). I don't think that DVC is actually reaching anyone outside the crypto sphere. I don't think many writters will be annoyed if they have to trade vs btc first. In the other case there is some lobby to do with BTC-E. melodiem for you; is the problem the conversion into fiat or the delay to get paid ?




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January 30, 2014, 05:10:14 PM
 #4770

Only few cryptos can be traded against fiat actually (BTC-E list). I don't think that DVC is actually reaching anyone outside the crypto sphere. I don't think many writters will be annoyed if they have to trade vs btc first. In the other case there is some lobby to do with BTC-E. melodiem for you; is the problem the conversion into fiat or the delay to get paid ?



We probably could open a request in their support page.

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January 30, 2014, 10:14:53 PM
 #4771

I haven't received a reply from the person I messaged to sign up.  What should I do?

And what do you mean by I can propose a bounty?

Can I just say "I suggest we make a solar farm and supply electricity to kids in Malawi!"?

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January 31, 2014, 12:24:08 AM
 #4772

Simpler is good, pandering to one-sided trade flow or interest isn't.

I dont quite understand, by one sided trade flow? I think maybe it means everyone selling and no one buying or the other way around? I agree totally, and from conversations on this forum I thought that was one of the existing issues: everyone selling at the end of the round? I looked at ways to address that but I dont think my ideas were useful.

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I'm not criticising you, this is just a discussion. I have views, and find inertia/perceptions that I think are counter-productive grating. But that seems to be my viewpoint as the outlier because counterpart opinions over time haven't changed, and is certainly not annoyance at you. Your ideas and input have been positive and I try to give constructive criticism.


I am so glad, if you were criticising I missed it and Id hate to be rude and not respond Wink

You have been really helpful and ask really good questions Weisoq, and I appreciate it. I learn by being involved; I hated school and studying but loved the moment I could start work and DO something and that attitude has carried over my whole life. Added to hyperactivity and an IQ I will never make real use of, it can make life interesting lol

I already know this about me but I realise anyone who doesn't already know this about me, when confronted with "ok, whats next, where do I start ..oh look! I could do that!!" is probably left scratching their head at who this bizarre woman is and what drugs is she on lol

I am not going anywhere, so people will work that out over time but for now, I truly appreciate the  time and effort taken to read, consider and respond to my posts.

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No they're not necessary steps to anything except the sustainability of devcoin. Either devcoin buyers are real interest, or just speculators/charity. If earners are perpetually selling to the latter then at some point this stops working. That's not how I understood the project; if it's a sustained dynamic I don't think it works.

I think you are talking about the Fund idea I spoke about in PM and (tried to discuss) on the other forum? I have pretty much given up on it as viable after all the negative feedback. It was a community concept but there is no point if the community cant see a need for it. The work Ive done so far at least gives some discussion points/considerations and maybe in the future the idea will have more reason to exist and someone else will pick it up. I am still going to try to find the expert advice I need to analyse it and complete it as a discussion paper so it isn't a half done job, and then at the least it adds to the existing knowledge/data around DVC etc.

As for getting me a bot and leaping into the shark infested money market... now THAT has got me just a little bit less terrified of trading, and a little bit inspired to be exploring something new Wink

I am putting an IRC chat module up on devcoinproject.com (If I dont completely spaz out at Melbourne IT before they sort the DNS crap they have going at the moment) it can be entered from anywhere and I registered the channel under MelodieMuse. (so you can find it from anywhere, no need to use my interfaace if you  have an IRC client. #Devcoin

The channel is already there, will get the site sorted today and post a link

melodiem
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January 31, 2014, 12:26:57 AM
 #4773

melodiem for you; is the problem the conversion into fiat or the delay to get paid ?

I quote for all my web work which never pays until the job is done...this can be 3-6 months on a big project. The time to wait does not bother me, its the conversion.  Smiley


Edited: quote

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January 31, 2014, 01:02:49 AM
 #4774

I think you are talking about the Fund idea I spoke about in PM and (tried to discuss) on the other forum? I have pretty much given up on it as viable after all the negative feedback.

Only two people have posted to the thread, Melodiem. Mine was a vane attempt at humor which fell flat. There is a follow up, which you may have missed, trying to explain the joke. Guess there is no future for me as a stand up if my jokes need explanation. Wink

So please jump in again and try to explain your idea in layman's terms. After reading through the intro on your DevTome entry it still had me scratching my non-economist trained head.

- Nova

DVC Address : 1EfsiVUECqmR5Qx7C4PkmwadDXYuSGzssL
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January 31, 2014, 01:21:34 AM
 #4775

Only two people have posted to the thread, Melodiem. Mine was a vane attempt at humor which fell flat. There is a follow up, which you may have missed, trying to explain the joke. Guess there is no future for me as a stand up if my jokes need explanation. Wink

So please jump in again and try to explain your idea in layman's terms. After reading through the intro on your DevTome entry it still had me scratching my non-economist trained head.
- Nova

I appreciate your response Nova, I did see it and I am sorry if you feel your joke at all responsible because it wasn't.

I abandoned the discussion because anyone following it, would get the immediate impression the moderator thought it a waste of time and possibly even some dodgy scam.

Like it or not, newcomers to a forum place more value on a moderators response than a newbie like me so in the interests of my own integrity/credibility/reputation I abandoned it. I am happy to continue the discussion in PM or via email, or to answer any thing posted on the discussion tab of the article. I think it would be more constructive in the long run.

I also asked the moderator to take the HUGE image in the middle of the discussion down (or at least make it smaller) as I felt it distracted from the conversation for anyone following. I suspect the reason it is still there, is that it supports the moderators comments, not your joke. (which by the way, I would have found funny if I wasn't already feeling like I had to defend my honour as NOT a scammer hitting people up for money, over a discussion I tried to start)

unclejed613
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January 31, 2014, 01:33:36 AM
 #4776

when i was doing stock trading years ago, i actually took some classes to learn some of the basics. one of the things i learned about trading was"wouldn't it be better having your money working for you, rather than always working for money?" it was a point of view that was new to me... rather than just cash out when i get paid for articles on devtome, i will take a portion of it for trading, and make my money work for me. another portion i will leave in my local wallet, and another portion i might cash out.... i will continue writing on devtome, but i will also continue my day job, which most of the time, i enjoy.... i'm an audio engineer, and i work as an audio technician repairing receivers, which, as an engineer is usually quite enjoyable, because i get to see how other engineers think, and i get to listen to music all day.....
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January 31, 2014, 01:55:27 AM
 #4777

I also asked the moderator to take the HUGE image in the middle of the discussion down (or at least make it smaller) as I felt it distracted from the conversation for anyone following. I suspect the reason it is still there, is that it supports the moderators comments, not your joke.

Quoting myself sorry, I just re-read that and I need to clarify...the image was posted in illustration of your joke, I dont mean to suggest it was posted with any other intention. I am only referring to the moderators response.  I had no problem with the image, just the sheer size of it makes it an unnecessary distraction...sorry if I implied otherwise

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January 31, 2014, 04:13:44 AM
 #4778

Sorry for triple posting, I have set up a Devcoin chat room here: http://devcoinproject.com/index.php/devcoin-chatroom

It is IRC, so the channel can be accessed with any client. (The web page just makes it simpler.)

The idea being somewhere to communicate/discuss devcoin related projects. Enjoy Smiley

I am also happy to put up chat rooms for those of you will projects under way, as a communication tool if it is any use. PM me if this is any use to you.


eeh
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January 31, 2014, 04:21:36 AM
 #4779

Any one having issues with blocks not processing?
wiser
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January 31, 2014, 05:15:24 AM
 #4780

I just processed registrations for several new writers who contacted me. If I missed anyone, please feel free to PM me again and I will take care of you.

Edit: Also, when you do contact your signup admin, please allow up to three days for a reply, as sometimes we get swamped. Everyone's patience is greatly appreciated.

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