Keeping Bitcoin Price High

[justusranvier]

We are still not at the point where a business can function without any fiat money at all.

How much fiat money does Satoshi Dice need to handle in order to function?

[1713920535]

1713920535

[1713920535]

1713920535

[1713920535]

1713920535

[Peter Lambert]

It seems like every time I think of buying something with BTC, the price drops, so I end up paying more.

Given the wild swings of bitcoin prices, I really think any merchant worth his or her salt would peg the prices to the exchange rates so that customers aren't screwed over when it changes.

Doesn't matter. Example:
Buy 1 BTC at $100. Hold. Buy 0.25 BTC for $25. Find item for sale that has its price pegged to $125, but by that time the exchange rate had dropped, so the 1.25 BTC is insufficient. The $125 peg requires, for example, the purchase of 0.10 more BTC for $9.26 (assuming you buy at spot, no fee). In the end you will have to spend $134.26 to buy a $125 item.

I see this happening to other people all the time... "I came up short, need to buy 0.xx BTC to make up the difference because of the rate drop", paraphrased.

Murphy's law at work.

It works the other way when the price is going up. Buy 1 BTC at $100. A while later, after the price has risen, you go buy the thing which is pegged to $125 for your 1 BTC. Now you spent $100 to get a $125 item.

[TheButterZone]

When is the price going up, and how often?

[tokeweed]

I'm trying to think of ways to have Bitcoin keep its value, instead of always fluctuating up and down.  As far as I know, it rises because lots of people buy coins, and once it hits a certain point, someone decides to sell a large amount, so the price drops a little bit, causing everyone else to sell, dropping the price lots.  It falls down, until it hits a low enough value that people wish to "buy back in", and then the price begins to rise again, and the cycle repeats.

My idea is that instead of waiting for the price to rise to sell coins, wait for the price to rise to buy something with coins.  Go to coingig, or bitcoinstore, and find an item that you want, and tell yourself "When Bitcoin hits 120$ (or any price), I'm going to buy this item instead of selling to an exchange.".

I think that this would help keep the price stable, as well as distribute the coins more, instead of keeping them all locked up in an exchange.

EDIT::  My knowledge of economics is minimal, so I could be way off.

it's an idea. but nope, won't happen.

[Asrael999]

I'm trying to think of ways to have Bitcoin keep its value, instead of always fluctuating up and down.  As far as I know, it rises because lots of people buy coins, and once it hits a certain point, someone decides to sell a large amount, so the price drops a little bit, causing everyone else to sell, dropping the price lots.  It falls down, until it hits a low enough value that people wish to "buy back in", and then the price begins to rise again, and the cycle repeats.

My idea is that instead of waiting for the price to rise to sell coins, wait for the price to rise to buy something with coins.  Go to coingig, or bitcoinstore, and find an item that you want, and tell yourself "When Bitcoin hits 120$ (or any price), I'm going to buy this item instead of selling to an exchange.".

I think that this would help keep the price stable, as well as distribute the coins more, instead of keeping them all locked up in an exchange.

EDIT::  My knowledge of economics is minimal, so I could be way off.

it's an idea. but nope, won't happen.

It is not just about you earning income in bitcoins and then spending bitcoins, if the person you pay bitcoin to converts them to Fiat currency that is exactly the same as if you do it yourself, it creates the same sell order on MTgox or equivalent. The value of a bitcoin is a simple supply/demand equation, more buyers than sellers price goes up, more sellers than buyers price goes down. <- its obviously more complex than this - but this is the core.

For bitcoin to continue to advance in value we have to eliminate the selling of bitcoin to buy fiat from the cycle, this means getting people like utility companies and supermarkets and farmers to accept bitcoin in payment. We need retailers and the suppliers of goods that ordinary people use to be prepared to accept bitcoin as payment - and for them to be able to pay their suppliers in bitcoin. If you can buy food and energy with bitcoin you can meet your basic needs from bitcoin alone, if you can do that you can be paid in bitcoin, and from there bitcoin becomes an alternative to Fiat and we can stop worrying about how many USD 1BTC is worth because it will not matter.

[halfawake]

It is not just about you earning income in bitcoins and then spending bitcoins, if the person you pay bitcoin to converts them to Fiat currency that is exactly the same as if you do it yourself, it creates the same sell order on MTgox or equivalent. The value of a bitcoin is a simple supply/demand equation, more buyers than sellers price goes up, more sellers than buyers price goes down. <- its obviously more complex than this - but this is the core.

For bitcoin to continue to advance in value we have to eliminate the selling of bitcoin to buy fiat from the cycle, this means getting people like utility companies and supermarkets and farmers to accept bitcoin in payment. We need retailers and the suppliers of goods that ordinary people use to be prepared to accept bitcoin as payment - and for them to be able to pay their suppliers in bitcoin. If you can buy food and energy with bitcoin you can meet your basic needs from bitcoin alone, if you can do that you can be paid in bitcoin, and from there bitcoin becomes an alternative to Fiat and we can stop worrying about how many USD 1BTC is worth because it will not matter.

There's already a website that handles billpay in bitcoin: https://www.billpayforcoins.com/index.php, which should take care of the utility companies part of the equation, they aren't even charging any fees for it (for now).  Getting supermarkets to accept bitcoin would be much harder though because intermediaries like this wouldn't work like this unless you're one of the rare people who buys all your food online.  It's also harder because unlike utilities which there are relatively few of, there are a lot of different supermarkets.  Not an impossible task, but definitely difficult, I would imagine.

[bitcoin_max]

You can't do anything to "keep" the price high.  The price will always reflect the current supply/demand situation.

[Moogle]

Whatever it is you are doing please stop. It didn't work

[nexus99]

Everyone is selling... :-)

[BitChick]

If Mt. Gox keeps their word and allows for cash withdrawals for USD tomorrow, we will see a massive buy back in and the price will shoot up I would imagine.

I think people are just anxious.

[halfawake]

If Mt. Gox keeps their word and allows for cash withdrawals for USD tomorrow, we will see a massive buy back in and the price will shoot up I would imagine.

I think people are just anxious.

I really hope you're right, it'd be nice to regain the paper loss since I bought my bitcoins.  I feel dumb for buying them when they were at $100 now, but oh well.

[Wagner2014]

If you believe bitcoin prices will in the next 10 years become worth 1000s or even 100s of 1000s of dollars like some people suggest, wouldn't you want to keep prices low, not high?

I would think you'd want prices to be high only if you were one of the lucky few that picked up 1000s of coins at the very early stages OR you wanted to sell your coins now.

[Moogle]

yeah i've been buying whilst they are low thinking its hit the bottom, and it just drops further and further! i am ok with it at the moment though :-) theres a few things i wanna buy in BTC so let it keep dropping! haha

[bizz]

  You people should read some books on trading/investing/economics. Seriously. Anything.

[tokeweed]

i got it!

buy some cocaine with btc in the silkroad and sell it for usd. big profit!

[firefop]

You're not clear on the velocity of the marketplace. At this moment in time, being able to convert to fiat instantly is NOT a good thing. You WANT people to stay in the world of BTC. BTC will never be a viable currency until people want to earn it, spend it AND hold on to it. Otherwise, its just a play thing that no one will take seriously. Besides, the trading is so thin right now that a couple of large purchases that are instantly put on Gox can have a widespread, negative effect. In my experience (keep in mind that I deal with some LARGE wallets) it can take as little as 100BTC to really affect the price. When I have 150+BTC to sell I take my time, usually at least 24 hours, sometimes more. 

shallow orderbooks are a problem... but I think a bigger problem is that everyone and their brother pegs their prices to gox - so any time it's affected everything else follows it. Specifically, speculators on every other exchange. It isn't efficient in the sense that it being arbitrated - people are just following that single market to set their price.

[jmaccoin]

All this talk of keeping the bitcoin cycle closed is crazy. If the market price for bitcoins is too high, it will drop.

Could you imagine what would happen if Canadian dollars would only hold their value if people didn't exchange them for American (or anything) dollars? We would be in a lot of trouble in Canada, and wouldn't be able to buy anything but beaver pelts and corrupt politicians.

That is Argentinian talk.

Once the market is big enough there will be a lot less volatility. But there is only one thing to blame for the falling price, lack of buyers.

[Peter Lambert]

You're not clear on the velocity of the marketplace. At this moment in time, being able to convert to fiat instantly is NOT a good thing. You WANT people to stay in the world of BTC. BTC will never be a viable currency until people want to earn it, spend it AND hold on to it. Otherwise, its just a play thing that no one will take seriously. Besides, the trading is so thin right now that a couple of large purchases that are instantly put on Gox can have a widespread, negative effect. In my experience (keep in mind that I deal with some LARGE wallets) it can take as little as 100BTC to really affect the price. When I have 150+BTC to sell I take my time, usually at least 24 hours, sometimes more. 

shallow orderbooks are a problem... but I think a bigger problem is that everyone and their brother pegs their prices to gox - so any time it's affected everything else follows it. Specifically, speculators on every other exchange. It isn't efficient in the sense that it being arbitrated - people are just following that single market to set their price.

Actually, the mtgox price has been lagging behind the other exchanges. I guess the mtgox users are just sheep following btc-e and bitstamp.

[nofuture]

Long investors would be wise to be patient.   Bitcoin services are growing rapidly and are becoming more professional which attracts a larger user base.  Ultimately the value of the currency will be determined by the value of the goods and services that can be exchanged for it.  Pay close attention to businesses that require bitcoin and accept no other method of payment.  According to the following Forbes article business is booming and competitors are entering this space. 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/06/26/bitcoin-black-market-competition-heats-up-with-pro-marketing-and-millions-at-stake/


Studying the economics of mining is still a worthwhile endeavor.  Obviously the higher difficulty drives prices up assuming all other factors remain the same.

My interpretation of the charts is that bitcoins are slightly undervalued right now when using mining as a cost basis.  http://www.bitcoinx.com/charts/


ASICs are having a profound impact on mining.  Be sure to experiment with bitcoin mining calculators and try simulate market conditions.  It's hard to estimate just how much ASIC hardware is out there on the network.  A lot of it may be in the dark.  Not everyone who makes ASIC hardware sells it.  Some manufacturers put their ASICs to work for themselves.   There is no way to know how much of this activity is going on. 
http://www.bitcoinx.com/profit/


In the end the miners are there because there is a burgeoning market need for bitcoins; it's not the other way around.  Look for business growth, media attention, wider consumer adoption, stuff like that if you want to predict the long term price of a bitcoin.

[Xyver]

If you believe bitcoin prices will in the next 10 years become worth 1000s or even 100s of 1000s of dollars like some people suggest, wouldn't you want to keep prices low, not high?

I would think you'd want prices to be high only if you were one of the lucky few that picked up 1000s of coins at the very early stages OR you wanted to sell your coins now.

I've been mining Bitcoins.  So the higher the price, the higher I can sell my coins for.  The electricity I paid for them is fixed, so the higher I can sell them (or trade them) for, the higher returns I get.