KNCMiner and their 'magic' SHA256 alogorithm

[titomane]

With all due respect, there is no place in my profession for deception, exaggeration, poor design, dubious methodology and 'try it and hope for the best' attitude.

Could it be that even Orsoc KNC do not know their work, and want to sell vaporware.

But you believe that a company like Altera with 40% market share & 2000 Million$ in 2011 sell VAPORWARE
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My question as I put here a few days ago.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=232852.msg2508262#msg2508262
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=232852.msg2511055#msg2511055

But still do not know why they said "A" and now is "B". When I told them it is better Stratix. They said save costs. Now the costs are not important?
I guess now enough money for a more expensive process

Sorry if you thought I laughed at your profession. Nothing is

[TheSwede75]

Knew I'd find this eventually:

"An ASIC Design for a High Speed Implementation of the Hash Function SHA256 (384, 512)", Dadda, Machetti, Owen (2004)

These guys came up with a re-timing pipeline which increases Maximum Clock Speed on a regular SHA engine by 36%. No new algorithm - you cannot 'improve' the existing one, this is simply an exercise to reduce critical path delay on an ASIC (not an FPGA)

So to any of you that are prepared to swallow the shite that KNC put out: Beware.

I'm not saying they are scammers, but they are dishonest with their information, to put it mildly.

Read into that what you will.

And how does this differ from their statements? I'm pretty sure they have never given any explicit details except basically "we go it faster" which if correctly implemented they very well might. I think most people (I hope) understood they didn't actually claim to be taking shortcuts in solving the actual crypto. I for one give absolutely zero shits about exactly HOW a miner reaches a certain hash speed, just that it does it.

[idee2013]

Knew I'd find this eventually:

"An ASIC Design for a High Speed Implementation of the Hash Function SHA256 (384, 512)", Dadda, Machetti, Owen (2004)

These guys came up with a re-timing pipeline which increases Maximum Clock Speed on a regular SHA engine by 36%. No new algorithm - you cannot 'improve' the existing one, this is simply an exercise to reduce critical path delay on an ASIC (not an FPGA)

So to any of you that are prepared to swallow the shite that KNC put out: Beware.

I'm not saying they are scammers, but they are dishonest with their information, to put it mildly.

Read into that what you will.

And how does this differ from their statements? I'm pretty sure they have never given any explicit details except basically "we go it faster" which if correctly implemented they very well might. I think most people (I hope) understood they didn't actually claim to be taking shortcuts in solving the actual crypto. I for one give absolutely zero shits about exactly HOW a miner reaches a certain hash speed, just that it does it.

+1

[brontosaurus]

How does this differ from their statements? Were you taught the meaning of percentages at school? Have you ever done any real engineering?

Another contributor was right - who gives a f*** for anything but the hash rate?

Except, possibly, if there is misinformation about one major thing, how can you trust anything you are told? For example, delivery times.

The more I hear about this project - mostly from it's 'believers' - the more I worry. Not for me, but for the hard working people that have bought into it (literally) and not been given the full facts about what might happen to their money and expectations. They deserve better.

I have nothing to gain or lose whether KNC succeed or fail. But I'd give any other company exactly the same criticism if they came out with shoddy or false specifications, misinformation or unachievable goals.

After all, I thought one of the major purposes of this forum was to watch each others' back? I'll bet you that with the response this post has had there won't be too many chancers offering their 'asics' anytime soon unless they have a proper ,documented plan.

[brontosaurus]

Sorry, the point of your post is?

At what point did you decide the debate had finished?

[Loredo]

How does this differ from their statements? Were you taught the meaning of percentages at school? Have you ever done any real engineering?

Another contributor was right - who gives a f*** for anything but the hash rate?

Why are you so cranky?

With due respect, you came at this the wrong way, IMO.  

Your theme is that some of the statements they've made around design strategy, as well as about supply logistics, don't seem to hold water.

That's a valid -in fact, vital- criticism of a tech startup vendor.  But to come in by accusing them of lying about the efficacy of their core process implementation in effect derailed your own thread, and covered an important professional opinion with a veneer of troll-like bullshit.

[Trongersoll]

There will always be haters and people who argue for the sake of arguing. There are also people who are convinced that the way they see things is the only right way to see them and won't give up trying to convince others of the same.

[KS]

Meh... their magic SHA256 algo is just one in a number of false claims.

Maybe the shills could come up with "factuals" instead of just "shilling"... It's hard as it is to try and stay unbiased with all the BS flying around.

So far the only thing that's staying true is they have a prototype that has been shown to mine (well, they showed a laptop, but I'll take the word of the people present at the open day it wasn't faked - and that's a big assumption). What other "facts" are there?

[titomane]

Meh... their magic SHA256 algo is just one in a number of false claims.

Maybe the shills could come up with "factuals" instead of just "shilling"... It's hard as it is to try and stay unbiased with all the BS flying around.

So far the only thing that's staying true is they have a prototype that has been shown to mine (well, they showed a laptop, but I'll take the word of the people present at the open day it wasn't faked - and that's a big assumption). What other "facts" are there?

I do not want you to think I'm a KNCFAN, I was in orsoc, Mars was off and connected to the laptop. The watt meter is put 0w as logical.
When launched it takes a few seconds to be operating the 6FPGA of each PCB. Cgminer once operated 5.8-6.1 ghs with 400-450w. I do not remember exactly
I thought may be a video or any ruse. Logical doubt, if you buy something.
As in BTCguild were mining told that they should go on the web and should do the login.
I must say that out of respect look away when they placed the password. (Reflection type of informatic)
In a few seconds by pressing F5 updated one worker 5300-6300mhas. I do not remember exactly

I'm not saying it can not be a scam. Everything can be a scam to a marriage of years.
But if I have defrauded it worked very well.

Not prevent him to travel to Sweden to collect the debt

[KS]

Meh... their magic SHA256 algo is just one in a number of false claims.

Maybe the shills could come up with "factuals" instead of just "shilling"... It's hard as it is to try and stay unbiased with all the BS flying around.

So far the only thing that's staying true is they have a prototype that has been shown to mine (well, they showed a laptop, but I'll take the word of the people present at the open day it wasn't faked - and that's a big assumption). What other "facts" are there?

I do not want you to think I'm a KNCFAN, I was in orsoc, Mars was off and connected to the laptop. The watt meter is put 0w as logical.
When launched it takes a few seconds to be operating the 6FPGA of each PCB. Cgminer once operated 5.8-6.1 ghs with 400-450w. I do not remember exactly
I thought may be a video or any ruse. Logical doubt, if you buy something.
As in BTCguild were mining told that they should go on the web and should do the login.
I must say that out of respect look away when they placed the password. (Reflection type of informatic)
In a few seconds by pressing F5 updated one worker 5300-6300mhas. I do not remember exactly

I'm not saying it can not be a scam. Everything can be a scam to a marriage of years.
But if I have defrauded it worked very well.

Not prevent him to travel to Sweden to collect the debt

Like I said, the Mars miner is fact number 1 (on the positives, I won't recap the negs again, read the 120+ pages). Can't wait for more facts (& less wishful thinking/excuses/speculation).

[k9quaint]

Like I said, the Mars miner is fact number 1 (on the positives, I won't recap the negs again, read the 120+ pages). Can't wait for more facts (& less wishful thinking/excuses/speculation).

Given that neither of the naysayers in this thread will admit that there is more than one way to implement an algorithm (and thusly demonstrate they are not engineers and in no position to judge KNC or OrSoc), the only thing that will satisfy them is a free fully operational Saturn from KNCMiner.
Lots of luck. 

[Loredo]

This way I see this whole thing right now is as follows:

1. KNC / OrSoC presented their concept with so much relative transparency and a base level of credibility that they were embraced, if for no other reason than in the Land of the Blind, the One Eyed Man is king.

2.  Some of the claims they've made trigger red flags in some of the Old Pros.  Often, old Pros are right about their instincts and what happens when things are presented that are out of synch with their knowledge and experience.  But not always.  Some of the Old Pros at IBM mocked the ridiculous personal computer as nothing but a Heathkit without the fun of building it oneself.

3.  There's a presumption that foundries see the bitcoin asics as a pain in the ass, and will piss on that business from a high distance.  While their meat and potatoes is the 3 million chips to go into the new Sunbeam toaster, which retails for 28 bucks,  there might well be suits upstairs who will pay attention, even to promoter-types who think ASIC is Latin for ASAP, when those guys offer to pay them 28 bucks a chip for a small run.

The bottom line is we don't know.  Kids are filled with grand schemes and irrational exuberance.  Often they don't think it thought or fail to acknowledge the small stuff that can kill a big project.  That could well be the case here.  

I wish they weren't taking pre-orders; Sweden has some vibrant financing, and some world-class product comes out of Scandinavia, from Saab to Nokia to ABB down to companies micro-sized relative to those.  

If people hadn't been so damned blinded by the greed that allowed this scammable vendor/customer relationship to spawn in the first place, this whole environment would be in a lot better place than it is today.      

[titomane]

This way I see this whole thing right now is as follows:

1. KNC / OrSoC presented their concept with so much relative transparency and a base level of credibility that they were embraced, if for no other reason than in the Land of the Blind, the One Eyed Man is king.

2.  Some of the claims they've made trigger red flags in some of the Old Pros.  Often, old Pros are right about their instincts and what happens when things are presented that are out of synch with their knowledge and experience.  But not always.  Some of the Old Pros at IBM mocked the ridiculous personal computer as nothing but a Heathkit without the fun of building it oneself.

3.  There's a presumption that foundries see the bitcoin asics as a pain in the ass, and will piss on that business from a high distance.  While their meat and potatoes is the 3 million chips to go into the new Sunbeam toaster, which retails for 28 bucks,  there might well be suits upstairs who will pay attention, even to promoter-types who think ASIC is Latin for ASAP, when those guys offer to pay them 28 bucks a chip for a small run.

The bottom line is we don't know.  Kids are filled with grand schemes and irrational exuberance.  Often they don't think it thought or fail to acknowledge the small stuff that can kill a big project.  That could well be the case here.  

I wish they weren't taking pre-orders; Sweden has some vibrant financing, and some world-class product comes out of Scandinavia, from Saab to Nokia to ABB down to companies micro-sized relative to those.  

If people hadn't been so damned blinded by the greed that allowed this scammable vendor/customer relationship to spawn in the first place, this whole environment would be in a lot better place than it is today.      

For the record, there are only 2 Saturns for Bitcoinorama KNCFANS one for and one for me. Joking aside jajajajaa.

Never trust or distrust someone because of their nationality.

P.D Saab finally closed in 2012. Nokia had the good fortune of partnering with Microsoft to use WindowsPhone. They could amputate the gangrenous limb. Because Symbian was very good 8 years ago but was obsolete.

[KS]

OK, 2 problems:

1/ they can't get a better/other algo, it's SHA256 or nothing.

2/ they're a joke on the BUSINESS side. (relates to false claim about 1/).

They're full of it, period. This is not about the SHA256 algo, it's about their continuous BS. ORSoC is not making those stupid claims, it's all KNCMINER's doing (which brings me again to the fact that ORSoC is NOT KNCMINER, so don't confuse the two, even if they are in close ties - it'll be KNCMINER losing your money, if).

Get the head OUT of the tech, it's only a small part of it. It's the business that will screw you (if).

[DPoS]

OK, 2 problems:

1/ they can't get a better/other algo, it's SHA256 or nothing.

2/ they're a joke on the BUSINESS side. (relates to false claim about 1/).

They're full of it, period. This is not about the SHA256 algo, it's about their continuous BS. ORSoC is not making those stupid claims, it's all KNCMINER's doing (which brings me again to the fact that ORSoC is NOT KNCMINER, so don't confuse the two, even if they are in close ties - it'll be KNCMINER losing your money, if).

Get the head OUT of the tech, it's only a small part of it. It's the business that will screw you (if).

Actually you're the joke. You are flailing away into trollville

creating ASIC miners is a cottage industry at best..  what cottage industries have the world class business processes you expect wacko?

If you took 2% of your anger and used it instead to be productive you might be able to make your own miner
What are you still stomping your feet here for?  The bets have been placed, and now we wait

Go hug your mother. [Yufi]

[Loredo]

P.D Saab finally closed in 2012.

Autos.  

But see http://www.saab.com/

and re: "Never trust or distrust someone because of their nationality," for me to say world class products come from Scandinavia, I'm speaking to the infrastructure (contractors, vendors, universities, human capital) that implies, not the color of their skin or how hot the women tend to be (the answer to the latter, of course is:  really. hot.)

[Trongersoll]

OK, 2 problems:

1/ they can't get a better/other algo, it's SHA256 or nothing.

2/ they're a joke on the BUSINESS side. (relates to false claim about 1/).

They're full of it, period. This is not about the SHA256 algo, it's about their continuous BS. ORSoC is not making those stupid claims, it's all KNCMINER's doing (which brings me again to the fact that ORSoC is NOT KNCMINER, so don't confuse the two, even if they are in close ties - it'll be KNCMINER losing your money, if).

Get the head OUT of the tech, it's only a small part of it. It's the business that will screw you (if).

You obviously are not a software engineer. First, they never claimed to have improved the sha256 algorithm. You said that, not them. There is more to coding a usable ASIC than just the Algorithm, and there is always more than one way to code software. Saying that they improved their algorithm does not imply that they were referring to improving the SHA256 algorithm. They may have just been referring to their implimentation of it, or the code they wrote to support it. For example, if i code my asic to run 4 instances or SHA256, and then realize that there was actually room for 5. i could recode it to run 5. I've improved my algorithm without improving SHA256. I think this is a case of you not understanding what they meant.

[KS]

OK, 2 problems:

1/ they can't get a better/other algo, it's SHA256 or nothing.

2/ they're a joke on the BUSINESS side. (relates to false claim about 1/).

They're full of it, period. This is not about the SHA256 algo, it's about their continuous BS. ORSoC is not making those stupid claims, it's all KNCMINER's doing (which brings me again to the fact that ORSoC is NOT KNCMINER, so don't confuse the two, even if they are in close ties - it'll be KNCMINER losing your money, if).

Get the head OUT of the tech, it's only a small part of it. It's the business that will screw you (if).

You obviously are not a software engineer. First, they never claimed to have improved the sha256 algorithm. You said that, not them. There is more to coding a usable ASIC than just the Algorithm, and there is always more than one way to code software. Saying that they improved their algorithm does not imply that they were referring to improving the SHA256 algorithm. They may have just been referring to their implimentation of it, or the code they wrote to support it. For example, if i code my asic to run 4 instances or SHA256, and then realize that there was actually room for 5. i could recode it to run 5. I've improved my algorithm without improving SHA256. I think this is a case of you not understanding what they meant.

You're right, I jumped the gun on the "SHA256" bit.

Here's their website quote:

"An additional gain of 30% more hashing when the advanced algorithms provided by ORSoC are applied."

30% more hashing than what then?

[KS]

creating ASIC miners is a cottage industry at best.. 

You're right about that at least.

[k9quaint]

OK, 2 problems:

1/ they can't get a better/other algo, it's SHA256 or nothing.

2/ they're a joke on the BUSINESS side. (relates to false claim about 1/).

They're full of it, period. This is not about the SHA256 algo, it's about their continuous BS. ORSoC is not making those stupid claims, it's all KNCMINER's doing (which brings me again to the fact that ORSoC is NOT KNCMINER, so don't confuse the two, even if they are in close ties - it'll be KNCMINER losing your money, if).

Get the head OUT of the tech, it's only a small part of it. It's the business that will screw you (if).

You obviously are not a software engineer. First, they never claimed to have improved the sha256 algorithm. You said that, not them. There is more to coding a usable ASIC than just the Algorithm, and there is always more than one way to code software. Saying that they improved their algorithm does not imply that they were referring to improving the SHA256 algorithm. They may have just been referring to their implimentation of it, or the code they wrote to support it. For example, if i code my asic to run 4 instances or SHA256, and then realize that there was actually room for 5. i could recode it to run 5. I've improved my algorithm without improving SHA256. I think this is a case of you not understanding what they meant.

^This +1
KS is also obviously not a hardware engineer.