Miners have full control of Bitcoin price. Nobody can trust a system like this.

[WilderX]

This is yet again demonstration how miners have total control over Bitcoin price and it's forks. Nobody can trust a system like this when few powerful people can change eveyrthing in a day.

Not as a store of value
Not as a currency
Not as anything really other than an instrument for the rich to get richer and poor to get poorer. This is same as FIAT. You have not accomplished much anything really.

Proof of Work is doomed. Proof of Stake is the future.

POS changes everything.

1. In proof of work miners can play the system forever. They can dump their BTC when it's high and buy large amounts of BHC and start mining BHC which will rise it's price as you can see from the chart in the OP and what just happened over the past couple days. Then they dump BHC at 2-3 times the price and buy back BTC when it's low and move back to mining BTC... and on and on it goes and in the future it will be even worse when there are many more Bitcoin forks.
2. In Proof of Stake you can dump your stake (your holdings) only once! Once that is done you are out of power over the system and you can't play the system forever like in proof of work.

https://fork.lol/pow/hashrate

[1713588115]

1713588115

[master2080]

Not as anything really other than an instrument for the rich to get richer and poor to get poorer. This is same as FIAT. You have not accomplished much anything really.

Proof of Work is doomed. Proof of Stake is the future.

Yes, let's just let all the rich people buy all the coins so they'll control the coin, but without the electricity costs.

Sounds like a wonderful and impactful change.

[WilderX]

Not as anything really other than an instrument for the rich to get richer and poor to get poorer. This is same as FIAT. You have not accomplished much anything really.

Proof of Work is doomed. Proof of Stake is the future.

Yes, let's just let all the rich people buy all the coins so they'll control the coin, but without the electricity costs.

Sounds like a wonderful and impactful change.

There is a new novel POS at work where even if you hold just one unit and stake you have a chance getting rewards.

[Lordas]

What PoS would change? Nothing - poor will have tiny amounts, rich - huge. Result the same.

[WilderX]

What PoS would change? Nothing - poor will have tiny amounts, rich - huge. Result the same.

POS changes everything.

1. In proof of work miners can play the system forever. They can dump their BTC when it's high and buy large amounts of BHC and start mining BHC which will rise it's price as you can see from the chart in the OP and what just happened over the past couple days. Then they dump BHC at 2-3 times the price and buy back BTC when it's low and move back to mining BTC... and on and on it goes and in the future it will be even worse when there are many more Bitcoin forks.

2. In Proof of Stake you can dump your stake (your holdings) only once! Once that is done you are out of power over the system and you can't play the system forever like in proof of work.

[1101labu]

There is a new novel POS at work where even if you hold just one unit and stake you have a chance getting rewards.

Yeah in my country they have it also. They call it national lottery.

[ibininja]

This is yet again demonstration how miners have total control over Bitcoin price and it's forks. Nobody can trust a system like this when few powerful people can change eveyrthing in a day.

Not as a store of value
Not as a currency
Not as anything really other than an instrument for the rich to get richer and poor to get poorer. This is same as FIAT. You have not accomplished much anything really.

Proof of Work is doomed. Proof of Stake is the future.

POS changes everything.

1. In proof of work miners can play the system forever. They can dump their BTC when it's high and buy large amounts of BHC and start mining BHC which will rise it's price as you can see from the chart in the OP and what just happened over the past couple days. Then they dump BHC at 2-3 times the price and buy back BTC when it's low and move back to mining BTC... and on and on it goes and in the future it will be even worse when there are many more Bitcoin forks.
2. In Proof of Stake you can dump your stake (your holdings) only once! Once that is done you are out of power over the system and you can't play the system forever like in proof of work.

https://fork.lol/pow/hashrate

Agreed man; Proof of work no longer works; I mean the way the play with the market is crazy; it is a blood bath out there. I am surprised how the market shifted in a glance. Looks like Eth is write to consider proof of stake.

[WilderX]

There is a new novel POS at work where even if you hold just one unit and stake you have a chance getting rewards.

Yeah in my country they have it also. They call it national lottery.

Yes exactly and in Bitcoin the miners have cracked the lottery machine.

[WilderX]

All moves on the crypto market as far as POW based coins go is very much coordinated. Don't be a fool and live in denial.

[pitham1]

Miners moving to BCH does not increase BCH's price. It does nothing except increase the speed of blocks being generated (until the next difficulty adjustment). So them dumping BTC and moving to BCH just to profit does not make sense.

[hatshepsut93]

OP, you are assuming that the price follows the hashrate, but it's wrong and in reality it's the opposite and what is currently happening is that people like Roger Ver and other big blockers with big pockets are frustrated over B2X's cancellation, so they have pumped BCH with their own money which they will lose because people will dump their BCH if they have it unclaimed since the fork day. Bitcoin is still in its early days, the market hasn't matured so the price can be shaken relatively easy, especially if it was near ATH after a big bull run but you can't really say that miners control the price.

[WilderX]

Miners moving to BCH does not increase BCH's price. It does nothing except increase the speed of blocks being generated (until the next difficulty adjustment). So them dumping BTC and moving to BCH just to profit does not make sense.

You know nothing. The more miners there are it has a direct impact on what it costs to produce that specific unit be it BTC or BCH which ultimately dictates the price of that said unit.

You are legendary man... How do you still not see this? Are you not a miner?

[WilderX]

OP, you are assuming that the price follows the hashrate, but it's wrong and in reality it's the opposite and what is currently happening is that people like Roger Ver and other big blockers with big pockets are frustrated over B2X's cancellation, so they have pumped BCH with their own money which they will lose because people will dump their BCH if they have it unclaimed since the fork day. Bitcoin is still in its early days, the market hasn't matured so the price can be shaken relatively easy, especially if it was near ATH after a big bull run but you can't really say that miners control the price.

LOL assuming? Below is the hashrate evolution of Bitcoin. It is a fact that the production cost of a unit ultimately dictates the price.

I have seen this as a miner for years now. Everyone trying to tell you differently does not want you to know the truth.

https://blockchain.info/charts/hash-rate?timespan=all

[WilderX]

You can also thank miners for the 166k unconfirmed transactions and growing. Surely Bitcoin and Proof of Work has a bright future  

https://blockchain.info/unconfirmed-transactions

[LoyceV]

Although I agree that miners have too much power, I don't think POS will solve the fundamental problems. I think all the forks will disappear the moment the real Bitcoin allows scaling. This will end all forks and suck many altcoins dry.

What I want, as a regular Bitcoin user, is two things:
1. cheap and fast transactions
2. see the value of my coins increase
I have #2 in common with rich miners and whales, but for #1 the have the exact opposite interests.

I'm also surprised https://bitcoin.org/en/bitcoin-core/ (or https://bitcoincore.org) doesn't mention anything about how Bitcoin Core things these problems can be solved in the near future. Sure, they warn about forks and incompatibilities, but that's the result of the problems, not the cause.

Lightning Must Strike Soon, Bitcoin Facing Backlogs as Scalability Solution Awaited

Miners moving to BCH does not increase BCH's price. It does nothing except increase the speed of blocks being generated (until the next difficulty adjustment). So them dumping BTC and moving to BCH just to profit does not make sense.

And yet, the increase in block speed on Bitcoin Cash coincides with the pump. I've wondered about this before: why on earth would someone start paying more to buy Bitcoin Cash the moment miners are creating more of these coins?

[mammon]

Let me guess...  WilderX doesn't have BCH??

[hatshepsut93]

OP, you are assuming that the price follows the hashrate, but it's wrong and in reality it's the opposite and what is currently happening is that people like Roger Ver and other big blockers with big pockets are frustrated over B2X's cancellation, so they have pumped BCH with their own money which they will lose because people will dump their BCH if they have it unclaimed since the fork day. Bitcoin is still in its early days, the market hasn't matured so the price can be shaken relatively easy, especially if it was near ATH after a big bull run but you can't really say that miners control the price.

LOL assuming? Below is the hashrate evolution of Bitcoin. It is a fact that the production cost of a unit ultimately dictates the price.

No, it's not, the value is always determined by supply and demand, production costs is simply the bottom line for value, because no one would produce something at a loss. But you can't simply put a lot of work into something and expect to sell it at higher price, buyers don't concern themselves with production costs, their price is based purely on their feelings. And with cryptocurrencies the price change always precedes the hashpower change because miners are following the most profitable chain at the moment - it's never the opposite, like you are describing, that miners put more work and the price rises. SegWit2x futures were trading at a fraction of Bitcoin's price, despite being backed by 90% of hashpower - by your logic, they should have had 90% of Bitcoin's price.

[Stan235]

Could you please explain to newbie why Bitcoin does not want to encraese block size? As i inderstood it will lead to my transactions wright in the block. Looks like good idea.

[garytheasshole]

You're forgetting that markets tend to correct.
How exactly PoS is not making the rich richer? I fail to see your point.

[gentlemand]

No matter what system, fork, workaround or pleading you come up with, people with more power and money will find a way to lord over you. That's just how the world works and always will.

I'd love to see something that managed to neutralise dickish behaviour, but humans are dicks.

[tomwrx]

The way I see it, is that miners follow the price trend. BTC price increasing - more and more people or companies entering btc mining. e.g. It's the same with some unknown altcoin mining - it's barely profitbale, so just few people are mining it and difficulty is low. As soon as coin price increases (because of positive news or other factors), other miners spot a possibility for a profit and start mining that coin, thus mining difficulty increases.

[kaloloy]

Indeed, before it is the Big Whales are actually manipulating Bitcoin's price to surge up the value and make huge profits but today when a large scale miners were shifting from one currency to another would have a different story but the effects are the same. When they leave Bitcoin mining and and they are leaving thousands of transactions (that transaction delay can be shorten by the help of miners) to small scale miners while hash rate still very high then Bitcoin network is slowing down.
They're making profits because Bitcoin Cash transaction delay is minimal and new users will be comfortable and secured.

[gentlemand]

The way I see it, is that miners follow the price trend.

It depends on the miner. The very biggest will control enough mining power to spook the market and will have enough coins to be able to move it also. There are thousands more who'll follow what he does.

[garytheasshole]

Indeed, before it is the Big Whales are actually manipulating Bitcoin's price to surge up the value and make huge profits but today when a large scale miners were shifting from one currency to another would have a different story but the effects are the same. When they leave Bitcoin mining and and they are leaving thousands of transactions (that transaction delay can be shorten by the help of miners) to small scale miners while hash rate still very high then Bitcoin network is slowing down.
They're making profits because Bitcoin Cash transaction delay is minimal and new users will be comfortable and secured.

Secured? Surely you mean isolated from the whole bitcoin economy. Nobody accepts BCH.

[castiel0504]

I thought this was market manipulation from people that have left S2X? Instead of miners controlling BCH/BTC.. Of course they transferred to mine Bitcoin Cash at the moment because is rising like madman, but i read on some reddit comment that some Hard Fork is happening on 13th november, maybe price is going like crazy because of that?(not sure how much this info is true, i havent done any research about Bitcoin Cash)

[BitWolf~]

Wouldn't the difficulty just decrees as the network has lower hash rate? I see the difficulty down 6% as of 11/10. As it decreases the network should pick back up.

https://btc.com/stats/diff

[garytheasshole]

Wouldn't the difficulty just decrees as the network has lower hash rate? I see the difficulty down 6% as of 11/10. As it decreases the network should pick back up.

https://btc.com/stats/diff

Rough estimates are 15 days for the next difficulty adjustment, could be sooner or later depending how long BCH will remain profitable.

[WilderX]

Let me guess...  WilderX doesn't have BCH??

I do I hold few casascius coins meaning I own coins in all Bitcoin forks that exist now and in future.

I would like to see Bitcoin move to POS that would put a stop to all this gaming the miners are doing with the markets and Bitcoin would be able to scale better.

[WilderX]

OP, you are assuming that the price follows the hashrate, but it's wrong and in reality it's the opposite and what is currently happening is that people like Roger Ver and other big blockers with big pockets are frustrated over B2X's cancellation, so they have pumped BCH with their own money which they will lose because people will dump their BCH if they have it unclaimed since the fork day. Bitcoin is still in its early days, the market hasn't matured so the price can be shaken relatively easy, especially if it was near ATH after a big bull run but you can't really say that miners control the price.

LOL assuming? Below is the hashrate evolution of Bitcoin. It is a fact that the production cost of a unit ultimately dictates the price.

No, it's not, the value is always determined by supply and demand, production costs is simply the bottom line for value, because no one would produce something at a loss. But you can't simply put a lot of work into something and expect to sell it at higher price, buyers don't concern themselves with production costs, their price is based purely on their feelings. And with cryptocurrencies the price change always precedes the hashpower change because miners are following the most profitable chain at the moment - it's never the opposite, like you are describing, that miners put more work and the price rises. SegWit2x futures were trading at a fraction of Bitcoin's price, despite being backed by 90% of hashpower - by your logic, they should have had 90% of Bitcoin's price.

Yes you nailed it with "production costs is simple the bottom line for value" of course there is other factors like supply and demand, good/bad news pending etf listing, futures, Mt Gox fiasco.. China bans Bitcoin trading etc, but these have lesser effect Bitcoin price always settles based on the production cost.

You are talking about something that was only on paper where 90% of miners at the time said would support it, but it has not been in production so a fraction sounds right for bitcoin fork that has 0 hashes and 0 prodution cost in it.

The biggest miners are the insiders and few pools easily control over half of the hashpower they will do as they please.

[WilderX]

You're forgetting that markets tend to correct.
How exactly PoS is not making the rich richer? I fail to see your point.

I already explained in POS you can play your hand only once (dumb your stake) after that you have no more power over the system. In POW the largest miners can keep playing the system indefinitely.

POS changes everything.

1. In proof of work miners can play the system forever. They can dump their BTC when it's high and buy large amounts of BHC and start mining BHC which will rise it's price as you can see from the chart in the OP and what just happened over the past couple days. Then they dump BHC at 2-3 times the price and buy back BTC when it's low and move back to mining BTC... and on and on it goes and in the future it will be even worse when there are many more Bitcoin forks.

2. In Proof of Stake you can dump your stake (your holdings) only once! Once that is done you are out of power over the system and you can't play the system forever like in proof of work.

[gentlemand]

POS changes everything.

There are POS iterations that try to wipe out the staking advantage thing. NEM does Proof of Importance which places your success on your usefulness to the network rather than your hoarding.

[p90xinsanity]

the amount of market manipulation is insane. this is why sometimes things need to be regulated

[WilderX]

POS changes everything.

There are POS iterations that try to wipe out the staking advantage thing. NEM does Proof of Importance which places your success on your usefulness to the network rather than your hoarding.

Sounds like something easily exploited.

[WilderX]

177k unconfirmed transactions on BTC and counting... Wondering how bad the dumbing is going to be when those transactions finally do go through...

https://blockchain.info/unconfirmed-transactions

[BitWolf~]

It's down to 165k now See things are looking better already.
I want to point out the block rewards because of this -

Here are the last 5 blocks at the time of this post.

12.5 + 8.97069057 BTC
12.5 + 5.81207641 BTC
12.5 + 8.42500571 BTC
12.5 + 7.86277005 BTC
12.5 + 6.28012796 BTC

Let the idiots grind on empty BCH blocks = More for us!

[hakuna]

Not as anything really other than an instrument for the rich to get richer and poor to get poorer. This is same as FIAT. You have not accomplished much anything really.

Proof of Work is doomed. Proof of Stake is the future.

Yes, let's just let all the rich people buy all the coins so they'll control the coin, but without the electricity costs.

Sounds like a wonderful and impactful change.

It's the same as now, but people don't have to invest in equipment for mining, instead they have to invest in a token. I also believe POS is the future. 

[SMB-2525]

The premise of the post is wrong.

The only thing that controls the price of BTC in USD is the number of people willing to exchange USD for BTC and how much they are willing to pay.

I may be miners. It my be ordinary people, it may be professional investors.

Those who watched the stampede of minors into BCH and think it is a coordinated move are naive.

They moved into BCH because someone (not them) wanted to buy a lot of BCH and drove the price up. The miners followed this trend, they did not lead it.
Maybe BCH is being pumped. Maybe savvy investors see value there. Especially now that BTC will take a long tome to address their scaling problem.

Patience. Time will tell.

[coolstory]

Not as anything really other than an instrument for the rich to get richer and poor to get poorer. This is same as FIAT. You have not accomplished much anything really.

Proof of Work is doomed. Proof of Stake is the future.

Yes, let's just let all the rich people buy all the coins so they'll control the coin, but without the electricity costs.

Sounds like a wonderful and impactful change.

There is a new novel POS at work where even if you hold just one unit and stake you have a chance getting rewards.

Proof of stake system wouldn't change the situation mate. It doesn't bring anything new to bitcoin ecosystem. The problem is some groups, miners, bitcoin celebrities are doing hard manipulation in bitcoin and bitcoin cash. This is totally bad.

People like us need to be the role takers of this ecosystem. Mining it doesn't mean owning it totally.

[muncuss]

The premise of the post is wrong.

The only thing that controls the price of BTC in USD is the number of people willing to exchange USD for BTC and how much they are willing to pay.

I may be miners. It my be ordinary people, it may be professional investors.

Those who watched the stampede of minors into BCH and think it is a coordinated move are naive.

They moved into BCH because someone (not them) wanted to buy a lot of BCH and drove the price up. The miners followed this trend, they did not lead it.
Maybe BCH is being pumped. Maybe savvy investors see value there. Especially now that BTC will take a long tome to address their scaling problem.

Patience. Time will tell.

This.
I thought Whales who can manipulate the price, but in this thread miners seem have more power than whales or market/price manipulator.
(oh this is PoS coin, let's buy all the coin, we will have biggest reward, we will always get richer don't need to buy expensive hardware   )

[honeyb0y]

This is yet again demonstration how miners have total control over Bitcoin price and it's forks. Nobody can trust a system like this when few powerful people can change eveyrthing in a day.

Not as a store of value
Not as a currency
Not as anything really other than an instrument for the rich to get richer and poor to get poorer. This is same as FIAT. You have not accomplished much anything really.

Proof of Work is doomed. Proof of Stake is the future.

POS changes everything.

1. In proof of work miners can play the system forever. They can dump their BTC when it's high and buy large amounts of BHC and start mining BHC which will rise it's price as you can see from the chart in the OP and what just happened over the past couple days. Then they dump BHC at 2-3 times the price and buy back BTC when it's low and move back to mining BTC... and on and on it goes and in the future it will be even worse when there are many more Bitcoin forks.
2. In Proof of Stake you can dump your stake (your holdings) only once! Once that is done you are out of power over the system and you can't play the system forever like in proof of work.

https://fork.lol/pow/hashrate

We can say miners are like the early rich people, they have the advantage from new comers and new adopters of crypto currency. But once the time comes that most of the people are using Bitcoin then everything will somehow be leveled up.

[squallw]

It is a interesting discuss, i really not sure if more hash power increases the price, in theory, if there are no buyers, the price will not increase, even if you are mining a lot with huge hash power.
I think that rich people can inside trading their group even selling and buying to themselves, just for control and increase the price. So another people sees the price increasing and buy like an herd effect.

[alexzorgo]

The ecosystem of blockchain of bitcoin is constructed on circular dependence. Increase in quantity of miners (quantity hash of capacities) increases by the speed of transactions on the one hand and leads to increase in complexity on the other hand. Increase in complexity increases the cost of production (cost value) of coin. Increase in complexity leads to reduction of quantity of the got coins for unit of time and to reduction of speed of transaction. Unprofitable cost value forces miners to switch own capacities to more profitable coins. It leads hash-rate of bitcoin to growth delay. This cycle is repeated by miners on an alternative coin until there cost value of production doesn't increase too. After that mayner return to bitcoin. And everything repeats anew. It shows that it is enough to unite the necessary quantity of miners to affect market bitcoin. I think, the mining of currencies will consign to the past as this imperfection of a code of  blockchain of bitcoin.

[GreenBits]

This is yet again demonstration how miners have total control over Bitcoin price and it's forks. Nobody can trust a system like this when few powerful people can change eveyrthing in a day.

Not as a store of value
Not as a currency
Not as anything really other than an instrument for the rich to get richer and poor to get poorer. This is same as FIAT. You have not accomplished much anything really.

Proof of Work is doomed. Proof of Stake is the future.

POS changes everything.

1. In proof of work miners can play the system forever. They can dump their BTC when it's high and buy large amounts of BHC and start mining BHC which will rise it's price as you can see from the chart in the OP and what just happened over the past couple days. Then they dump BHC at 2-3 times the price and buy back BTC when it's low and move back to mining BTC... and on and on it goes and in the future it will be even worse when there are many more Bitcoin forks.
2. In Proof of Stake you can dump your stake (your holdings) only once! Once that is done you are out of power over the system and you can't play the system forever like in proof of work.

https://fork.lol/pow/hashrate

This is what we signed up for when we let the mining centralize this badly, and now that we have let this get to this point, the only civi/diplomatic/democratic thing to do is to smply catch up. of course Jihan would do this; he has spent a lot of time and a lot of money to develop him mining capacity. if he has an ideological split, like he did, then this is what happens. in the future, we will be wary of investing in a decentralized thing that really isnt.

the mining situation will have to improve (greater decentralization, and advances in efficiency) for this to be sustainable. until then, this is still very much in an experimental place. treat it as such, and you wont be disappointed

and decetralization should never = trust. you see how easily this can be subverted.

[Giebaymax]

all this is just a game of someone and they want bitcoin to fall so they do the setting with a big fee so when there is a transaction with a small fee it will not get confirmation. I think a lot of people who have been forgotten their vision and mission so they want to drop the name of bitcoin by increasing the presence of new coins and its value is so fantastic in a few hours 

[Sachinist]

Truth is both PoW and PoS, or even PoC for that matter, fail to foster a true decentralized economy. We're all at the same place we were in 1985 with the internet. We're a fair way away from wrapping our collective heads around decentralized blockchain economy.

[pooya87]

~ the rich to get richer and poor to get poorer. ~

Proof of Work is doomed. Proof of Stake is the future.

Proof of Stake is the exact definition of "the rich getting richer", it is way too obvious. the poor who has 1 coin gets practically nothing from staking, but the rich who has millions of coins will get a lot of reward for free, or just because he is rich.
that i don't consider a fair distribution. in PoW at least you have to "work" for it.

and miners don't "control" the price, you are exaggerating their power. they affected things a lot but they can not control it. the market does and all the manipulators, and in fact miners are mostly following the money meaning the pump of BCH and then when it is dumped they will come back to bitcoin.

2. In Proof of Stake you can dump your stake (your holdings) only once! Once that is done you are out of power over the system and you can't play the system forever like in proof of work.

the act of dumping causes the crash not how many times you can or can not dump it. you have some tokens and some money and with them you manipulate the market. PoW, PoS, Po- doesn't change that.
and the rich who has gotten richer for free from the PoS will have a lot more free money to dump than the worker in PoW who has worked for it and has to pay the bills and because of that has to sell regularly not accumulate the PoS to dump at once.

[imteaz]

Can't believe couple of mine farm could manipulate BCH price up to 8 billion dollar volume, this is just insane. I think it was show off the power miner have to tell the bitcoin people, if you mess with us, we will mess with you.

[garytheasshole]

Can't believe couple of mine farm could manipulate BCH price up to 8 billion dollar volume, this is just insane. I think it was show off the power miner have to tell the bitcoin people, if you mess with us, we will mess with you.

Miners dump, they don't pump, they follow the path of least resistance for more cash. Charlatan criminals pump the price and turn gullible people into shitcoin bag holders.

[Lordas]

POS changes everything.

1. In proof of work miners can play the system forever. They can dump their BTC when it's high and buy large amounts of BHC and start mining BHC which will rise it's price as you can see from the chart in the OP and what just happened over the past couple days. Then they dump BHC at 2-3 times the price and buy back BTC when it's low and move back to mining BTC... and on and on it goes and in the future it will be even worse when there are many more Bitcoin forks.

2. In Proof of Stake you can dump your stake (your holdings) only once! Once that is done you are out of power over the system and you can't play the system forever like in proof of work.

Shares of Apple Inc. is PoS system. How many ordinary ppl they make richer and how much? And how many Investments Funds, banks earn millions on them?
Ask guess who will loose their money if Apple will go down?

Actual crypto PoS systems let earn big money to exchanges, because they hold many coins in their wallets. And very low income for others.
I suppose you have many BTC already, therefore you want to get higher price + increase in PoS, thats good, but nothing with the system itself. And why we care about forks?
Anybody can do any fork from any coin. Just collect some ppl to keep network alive and go on. Problem is that ppl are greedy and don't care just about income

[salihno71]

It's all in percents. 1% from 100$ is 1$ and 1% from 1 million is 10000$. If you have a lot, it's much easier to get more. Whatever system you setup, people with a lot of funds will be able to turn it to their own interest.