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Author Topic: Bottlecaps 2.1 UPDATE REQUIRED - HARDFORK JULY 4 2014 to 200% Annual PoS  (Read 339536 times)
Rakete4
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May 28, 2014, 11:08:41 AM
 #1961

I may also cite Vitalik Buterin, who criticized the same thing about Primecoin back in July 2013 when Primecoin was launched.

http://bitcoinmagazine.com/5635/primecoin-the-cryptocurrency-whose-mining-is-actually-useful/

Second paragraph from bottom:

There are some places where Primecoin missed some serious opportunities for improvement. First of all, the self-adjusting block reward was intended to be a “more natural simulation of gold’s scarcity”. However, in practice it does the exact opposite. The desirable property that gold has is that its supply at least somewhat increases with its value; if the gold price shoots past $5,000, mining opportunities will become profitable that were not profitable before, increasing the rate at which new gold is mined and eventually making the supply go up, partially counteracting the price shock. Here, if the price goes up by a factor of ten, the difficulty will shoot up significantly as well as more miners move in, leading to… a reduction in the Primecoin generation rate. Thus, instead of adding the negative feedback mechanism inherent in gold, Primecoin instead creates a positive feedback mechanism that exacerbates the problem of volatility. Also, Primecoin could have set up its exponential adjustment algorithm to have a much longer period – reaching 86.5% adjustment after two months, for example, instead of a week. This is one innovation that would also at least somewhat stabilize the value of the currency by generating more coins when interest goes up, but unfortunately so far no currency has tried this; Primecoin, despite all of its other improvements, missed the chance to be the first.
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May 28, 2014, 11:36:14 AM
 #1962

If we go with 200% PoS, and keep PoW as it is, I predict that we will see a flash in the pan around the launch of the new client-version and the hardfork, and then Bottlecaps will continue the downpath.

Well if there is any sense left around here, 200% pos will certainly kill caps soon enough, agreed a short burst with the pump of it changing then a slide til nothing.
It looks just like a last ditch attempt for bagholders to offload there coin.
Not entirely against pos but 200%  Huh
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May 28, 2014, 11:43:41 AM
 #1963

Mr Tranz, coin control feature is at least to say awesome and is a must for every pos coin imo.

I just compiled a working exe from the original bottlecaps source. It seems to be syncing fine, but I will wait to make sure it syncs to the correct chain before celebrating. If it is synced on the correct chain I could add coin control to it without too much of a hassle.

That being said, if this coin stays at a 1% PoS rate, it wouldn't really be worth much time spending on the wallet. How soon could the community realistically reach consensus on changing things in main.cpp and kernel.cpp?  It seems like right now the CAP community is in slow motion, at least compared to the other coins I follow.

I am going to work on the wallet over the next few days/weeks. I plan to do a few things. Coin Control among them, but if you want to do that, that would be cool. Save me the trouble. If not no biggie.

I don't see much of a reason to change PoW, at least now.  

I DO want to increase the PoS.  Unless I hear major objections, here is what I am going to code.

After the wallet is officially released the PoS will increase until we hit the Max of 200%
Day 1 - 30 Max PoS stays at 1%
Day 31- 60 Max Pos increases to 50%
Day 61 - 90 Max Pos increases to 100%
Day 91 - 120 Max PoS increases to 150%
Day 120+ Max PoS will be 200%

I figured this will give everyone a clear opportunity to participate and allow people do their own due diligence on the code as well.

If people do not want this, fine, but I don't want to waste much time working on the wallet when it doesn't do PoW or PoS particularly well.

So speak now or forever hold your peace.


Erm .. well I feel someone has to get the facts back on this thread so I'll repost Tranz plan for him ..... It's 15 pages back now.

I have no comment here other than please do some research before posting your enlightened thinking.

Thanks Muchly

 
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May 28, 2014, 11:48:00 AM
 #1964

200% POS well after the fact  Roll Eyes as bad as ninja mining  Shocked

It will be well over 60 days notice, hardly stealth. I personally didn't own a single CAP until after I started posting in this thread.

Those who do not want to participate can sell at a nice gain. And those that do, are still able to buy fairly cheap..

Also look at the inteview with Sunny King. Even he is realizing 1% is just not enough. Doubt he will go 200%, but this is not PPC!  Grin



Seriously changing any reward whether it be pow, pos, on the fly defeats the whole point of a trustless system., either its done innocently (out of stupidity) or its a scam....the way its promoted in the header......well



I posed this to the community, and I left it to them. It responded with almost resounding yes. I think the market has also made it clear this direction it wants to go.


Obviously but do you think they made the decision based on whats good for the coin/cryptos or simple greed? hey everyone do you want 200% interest or not  Tongue.......... Roll Eyes

 

I think both for sure.


Hey I'm still a newbie but please do not overread my post! I have been following Proof-of-Stake coins for quite a while. Here is what I have to say:

I think the discussion whether PoS reward should be 1%, 100%, 200% or whatever misses the point that the height of the PoS reward must be seen only in comparison to the PoW reward. The rest is just numeric illusion, i.e. psychology.

And the importance of the PoW component in PoW/PoS-coins is highly underestimated. It is for coin distribution! Coins like Nxt, Mintcoin, Blackcoin and now XC are very similar to pyramid schemes, because there was either no PoW or only for a very short time.

In Hobonickels and Bottlecaps there is permanent PoW mining, which is good. However, the PoW component is completely unresponsive to the market. Newly mined coins flood the market when there is no demand, and that suppresses the price. This happened to both coins until Tranz stepped in. Smiley

So why not try a whole new approach, the opposite that Peercoin is doing:

Lets reduce the PoW reward if the PoW difficulty goes down, and increase PoW reward when PoW difficulty rises.
This should have a stabilizing impact on the price.

So for example with factor 16 like Peercoin, but with the opposite effect:

PoW Difficulty = 0,625 => 5 Coins mined per Block
PoW Difficulty = 10  => 10 Coins mined per Block
PoW Difficulty = 160 => 20 Coins mined per Block
PoW Difficulty = 25600 => 40 Coins mined per Block

As PoS reward I would suggest 10%. This should be enough to incentivise Minting to secure the network, but PoW would be crowded out only very slowly. With 200% PoS reward, we would effectively become like Mintcoin, Nxt, Blackcoin etc. very soon. I doubt that we really want that.

This design would stabilize the value of Bottlecaps. Low price => less inflation; higher price => more inflation.

Maybe such a coin exists already, but there seems to be none of the more prominent coins having such a design.

If we go with 200% PoS, and keep PoW as it is, I predict that we will see a flash in the pan when Tranz publishes the new client-version and around the time of the hardfork, and then Bottlecaps will continue the downpath.

very interesting design i credit your creativity - but what about natural PoW monopoly so for example I was first in on 5 KnC titans - isn't it in my interest to drive diff high then i get more reward ?

not criticizing - i really like your ideas.

have you read the white paper on "Rebasing" - ?

tiny rick !
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May 28, 2014, 11:53:47 AM
Last edit: May 28, 2014, 05:37:53 PM by digitalindustry
 #1965

If we go with 200% PoS, and keep PoW as it is, I predict that we will see a flash in the pan around the launch of the new client-version and the hardfork, and then Bottlecaps will continue the downpath.

Well if there is any sense left around here, 200% pos will certainly kill caps soon enough, agreed a short burst with the pump of it changing then a slide til nothing.
It looks just like a last ditch attempt for bagholders to offload there coin.
Not entirely against pos but 200%  Huh

i wouldn't say that is decided just yet - IPO's i will admit are pretty flawed or certainly can be - this however has a different spin, i think there is fair opportunity for many to participate.  price is still particularly undervalued but i will admit that the sell are looking thin.

but give that time it could even out.

i see it more kind of as a municipal bond, all be it a post apocalyptic one -

head should really read-


"Post apocalyptic municipal Bonds, investing in the uncertain future !"


: D serious but it looks good. i support

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May 28, 2014, 12:16:30 PM
Last edit: May 28, 2014, 12:38:44 PM by Rakete4
 #1966


Hey I'm still a newbie but please do not overread my post! I have been following Proof-of-Stake coins for quite a while. Here is what I have to say:

I think the discussion whether PoS reward should be 1%, 100%, 200% or whatever misses the point that the height of the PoS reward must be seen only in comparison to the PoW reward. The rest is just numeric illusion, i.e. psychology.

And the importance of the PoW component in PoW/PoS-coins is highly underestimated. It is for coin distribution! Coins like Nxt, Mintcoin, Blackcoin and now XC are very similar to pyramid schemes, because there was either no PoW or only for a very short time.

In Hobonickels and Bottlecaps there is permanent PoW mining, which is good. However, the PoW component is completely unresponsive to the market. Newly mined coins flood the market when there is no demand, and that suppresses the price. This happened to both coins until Tranz stepped in. Smiley

So why not try a whole new approach, the opposite that Peercoin is doing:

Lets reduce the PoW reward if the PoW difficulty goes down, and increase PoW reward when PoW difficulty rises.
This should have a stabilizing impact on the price.

So for example with factor 16 like Peercoin, but with the opposite effect:

PoW Difficulty = 0,625 => 5 Coins mined per Block
PoW Difficulty = 10  => 10 Coins mined per Block
PoW Difficulty = 160 => 20 Coins mined per Block
PoW Difficulty = 25600 => 40 Coins mined per Block

As PoS reward I would suggest 10%. This should be enough to incentivise Minting to secure the network, but PoW would be crowded out only very slowly. With 200% PoS reward, we would effectively become like Mintcoin, Nxt, Blackcoin etc. very soon. I doubt that we really want that.

This design would stabilize the value of Bottlecaps. Low price => less inflation; higher price => more inflation.

Maybe such a coin exists already, but there seems to be none of the more prominent coins having such a design.

If we go with 200% PoS, and keep PoW as it is, I predict that we will see a flash in the pan when Tranz publishes the new client-version and around the time of the hardfork, and then Bottlecaps will continue the downpath.

very interesting design i credit your creativity - but what about natural PoW monopoly so for example I was first in on 5 KnC titans - isn't it in my interest to drive diff high then i get more reward ?

not criticizing - i really like your ideas.

have you read the white paper on "Rebasing" - ?

Regarding Scrypt ASICs, yes that would be a problem with my design. I expect the more powerful ones to hit the market in 3-4 months from now.
It's a matter of choosing the right factors in the PoW design. I'm not a developper, but maybe Tranz could code it that way that the PoW reward will drop over the next months for a constant difficulty, in addition to the reward schedule proposed by me above.

Anyway, lets first wait for Tranz opinion before deepening that discussion. He is doing the work and should have the main say. I am not a developper unfortunately. Sad

Another option would be a wallet-based voting system for the PoW reward like Talkcoin has it.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=573998.0

Haven't seen that Whitepaper, do you have a link maybe?

And good luck driving the difficulty to lets say 25600 with your KnC Titans to receive 40 CAP per block - I want to see your electricity bill then and compare it to your profits when you sell your freshly mined CAP. Wink
25600 is 3x the difficulty of Litecoin today.
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May 28, 2014, 01:21:00 PM
Last edit: May 28, 2014, 01:39:10 PM by noise23
 #1967

With that PoW design, the header of the thread should be changed to "Stable value design coming soon - Bottlecaps first coin to reduce price volatility".

CAP goes 200% POS as decided by the community. Could you please stop flooding here in this topic and start your own thread with your theories?

Thank you.
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May 28, 2014, 02:59:57 PM
Last edit: May 28, 2014, 03:17:47 PM by presstab
 #1968

The plan is to go 200%, and get there on a gradual adjustment scale. CAP is naturally low btc/CAP exchange rate right now because there was no incentive to hold it - just mine and dump.  According to my own analysis, CAP will only go up in price. Right now you can grab 1% of the CAP money supply for about 1.5 btc.  For HBN 1% of the money supply runs about 9.2 btc, and for TEK 1% goes for 3.8btc.

Concerning price stability... That is going to be built into the coin on the PoS side. The PoS rate is certainly going to be variable with a fixed floor (1%) and ceiling (200%).  When enough people are staking and the PoS diff rises, it will adjust from 200% to 100% - and then from 100% to 50% - and so on.  We haven't heard all the details from Tranz yet concerning the threshold for diff change, because I think he is still working them out, but we will be hearing about them more in depth in the coming days/weeks when ideas turn into code.

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May 28, 2014, 03:52:48 PM
 #1969


Hey I'm still a newbie but please do not overread my post! I have been following Proof-of-Stake coins for quite a while. Here is what I have to say:

I think the discussion whether PoS reward should be 1%, 100%, 200% or whatever misses the point that the height of the PoS reward must be seen only in comparison to the PoW reward. The rest is just numeric illusion, i.e. psychology.

And the importance of the PoW component in PoW/PoS-coins is highly underestimated. It is for coin distribution! Coins like Nxt, Mintcoin, Blackcoin and now XC are very similar to pyramid schemes, because there was either no PoW or only for a very short time.

In Hobonickels and Bottlecaps there is permanent PoW mining, which is good. However, the PoW component is completely unresponsive to the market. Newly mined coins flood the market when there is no demand, and that suppresses the price. This happened to both coins until Tranz stepped in. Smiley

So why not try a whole new approach, the opposite that Peercoin is doing:

Lets reduce the PoW reward if the PoW difficulty goes down, and increase PoW reward when PoW difficulty rises.
This should have a stabilizing impact on the price.

So for example with factor 16 like Peercoin, but with the opposite effect:

PoW Difficulty = 0,625 => 5 Coins mined per Block
PoW Difficulty = 10  => 10 Coins mined per Block
PoW Difficulty = 160 => 20 Coins mined per Block
PoW Difficulty = 25600 => 40 Coins mined per Block

As PoS reward I would suggest 10%. This should be enough to incentivise Minting to secure the network, but PoW would be crowded out only very slowly. With 200% PoS reward, we would effectively become like Mintcoin, Nxt, Blackcoin etc. very soon. I doubt that we really want that.

This design would stabilize the value of Bottlecaps. Low price => less inflation; higher price => more inflation.

Maybe such a coin exists already, but there seems to be none of the more prominent coins having such a design.

If we go with 200% PoS, and keep PoW as it is, I predict that we will see a flash in the pan when Tranz publishes the new client-version and around the time of the hardfork, and then Bottlecaps will continue the downpath.

very interesting design i credit your creativity - but what about natural PoW monopoly so for example I was first in on 5 KnC titans - isn't it in my interest to drive diff high then i get more reward ?

not criticizing - i really like your ideas.

have you read the white paper on "Rebasing" - ?

Regarding Scrypt ASICs, yes that would be a problem with my design. I expect the more powerful ones to hit the market in 3-4 months from now.
It's a matter of choosing the right factors in the PoW design. I'm not a developper, but maybe Tranz could code it that way that the PoW reward will drop over the next months for a constant difficulty, in addition to the reward schedule proposed by me above.

Anyway, lets first wait for Tranz opinion before deepening that discussion. He is doing the work and should have the main say. I am not a developper unfortunately. Sad

Another option would be a wallet-based voting system for the PoW reward like Talkcoin has it.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=573998.0

Haven't seen that Whitepaper, do you have a link maybe?

And good luck driving the difficulty to lets say 25600 with your KnC Titans to receive 40 CAP per block - I want to see your electricity bill then and compare it to your profits when you sell your freshly mined CAP. Wink
25600 is 3x the difficulty of Litecoin today.

oh ok - of course the PoW is "capped" in this theory - ok i get it ..

noise23 settle down sweetie we were just talking.

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May 28, 2014, 04:21:32 PM
 #1970

Very good! Support!

Teddy COIN -15%Free+75%IPO,Let's talk about Teddy.TxYDJZDCkQKEP8dTtbZouA4b7G6Zuwi1zN
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May 28, 2014, 06:44:21 PM
 #1971

Very good! Support!
yeah and since you posted that the world has gone bonkers again
now a 37btc buy wall on cryptsy
840k caps @ .000044

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May 28, 2014, 07:26:57 PM
 #1972

If would be funny if that actually got filled.  That big of a holder would go beyond being a whale to something even bigger...Kirsti Alley.
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May 28, 2014, 07:29:26 PM
 #1973

Very good! Support!
yeah and since you posted that the world has gone bonkers again
now a 37btc buy wall on cryptsy
840k caps @ .000044



Someone is looking to pick up a modest 23% of the money supply. No big deal.

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May 28, 2014, 07:35:54 PM
 #1974

looks fake - can't see much happening , i  think the steady as we go system will pan out.

don't go an get all exuberant on us - lol

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May 28, 2014, 07:38:30 PM
 #1975

If would be funny if that actually got filled.  That big of a holder would go beyond being a whale to something even bigger...Kirsti Alley.



aww shes not so big !  ^^ lot of caps in there !

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May 29, 2014, 03:54:55 AM
Last edit: May 29, 2014, 04:10:12 AM by Tranz
 #1976

Commits and Beta Release:

-logtimestamps turned on by default
https://github.com/Tranz5/bottlecaps/commit/99e53e93acbb61f1580f84ffbdd2a69f81baa7c4

Fix Mac OS X Dock minimising issue:
https://github.com/Tranz5/bottlecaps/commit/34e0f116e7f0eff80fbe6c567ad1967581b2616a

Modernization of treatment of transactions:
https://github.com/Tranz5/bottlecaps/commit/f5f5b04c2f9d3eaa92af1f7240bff6bd08dae918

Change placement of strMintWarning:
https://github.com/Tranz5/bottlecaps/commit/fa20ca5995716a1d237ff77ae978a8a799390e9d

Add boost replace.hpp for wallet notifies:
https://github.com/Tranz5/bottlecaps/commit/48402d27f3fd18c0424be006d9036f40f6276b92

Add miner.h/cpp to pro:
https://github.com/Tranz5/bottlecaps/commit/e062ea73971150e8b7cb69a604fd50e0c712d1b5

Update alert key:
https://github.com/Tranz5/bottlecaps/commit/e8a4379d99e5026f3a2f5207be7bb0e51ed95b63

Update Version:
https://github.com/Tranz5/bottlecaps/commit/e5199724d09ee22f3e5c0c735a990aeee7e265f9



This concludes the catching up to HBN, I'll begin coding the fork, for 2.0, here shortly. I will have to start a testnet network, including hashing a genesis block, so that will take a bit of time.

In the mean time, here is a beta release. Version 1.999.

Please let me know how this goes. Specifically I am interested in how well the client connects to the network with no assistance (not using addnode). How the staking is going, and if someone can please solo PoW mine a few blocks and let me know if that is working or not.

There are also many features added to the wallet including, new click able icons, new wallet functionality, coin control, and new network function.  Please let me know if any of those are not working as intended.  Linking to one of the commits (https://github.com/Tranz5/bottlecaps/commits/master) that added or changed that function would be helpful.

Flounder(and others), please link to this post for version 1.999. Not directly to the release.  http://tinyurl.com/BottleCaps1-999Beta

Please be aware, that you MUST still upgrade to version 2.0 to get on the correct fork once it is ready. I estimate. 1 to 2 weeks. Depending.

You must also remove the blkindex.dat from your %appdata%BottleCaps directory before upgrading.

Binary(and src):
https://github.com/Tranz5/bottlecaps/releases/tag/1.999




HBN: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=303749.0 hobonickels.info
Personal Donations: F1TranzWqFGZyFeTMu6iLbtTQgdXuJPsiL
Donations to the HBN Fund: EhbNfund4PrRFLHMxsnbGLhP25hizJGHEE or 1LVFtCX4a83dMLjd8S7imKKKC58QaG83kw
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May 29, 2014, 04:05:38 AM
 #1977

Pools looking great with NO orphans anymore. Back on track.
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May 29, 2014, 05:33:19 AM
 #1978

Commits and Beta Release:

-logtimestamps turned on by default
https://github.com/Tranz5/bottlecaps/commit/99e53e93acbb61f1580f84ffbdd2a69f81baa7c4

Fix Mac OS X Dock minimising issue:
https://github.com/Tranz5/bottlecaps/commit/34e0f116e7f0eff80fbe6c567ad1967581b2616a

Modernization of treatment of transactions:
https://github.com/Tranz5/bottlecaps/commit/f5f5b04c2f9d3eaa92af1f7240bff6bd08dae918

Change placement of strMintWarning:
https://github.com/Tranz5/bottlecaps/commit/fa20ca5995716a1d237ff77ae978a8a799390e9d

Add boost replace.hpp for wallet notifies:
https://github.com/Tranz5/bottlecaps/commit/48402d27f3fd18c0424be006d9036f40f6276b92

Add miner.h/cpp to pro:
https://github.com/Tranz5/bottlecaps/commit/e062ea73971150e8b7cb69a604fd50e0c712d1b5

Update alert key:
https://github.com/Tranz5/bottlecaps/commit/e8a4379d99e5026f3a2f5207be7bb0e51ed95b63

Update Version:
https://github.com/Tranz5/bottlecaps/commit/e5199724d09ee22f3e5c0c735a990aeee7e265f9



This concludes the catching up to HBN, I'll begin coding the fork, for 2.0, here shortly. I will have to start a testnet network, including hashing a genesis block, so that will take a bit of time.

In the mean time, here is a beta release. Version 1.999.

Please let me know how this goes. Specifically I am interested in how well the client connects to the network with no assistance (not using addnode). How the staking is going, and if someone can please solo PoW mine a few blocks and let me know if that is working or not.

There are also many features added to the wallet including, new click able icons, new wallet functionality, coin control, and new network function.  Please let me know if any of those are not working as intended.  Linking to one of the commits (https://github.com/Tranz5/bottlecaps/commits/master) that added or changed that function would be helpful.

Flounder(and others), please link to this post for version 1.999. Not directly to the release.  http://tinyurl.com/BottleCaps1-999Beta

Please be aware, that you MUST still upgrade to version 2.0 to get on the correct fork once it is ready. I estimate. 1 to 2 weeks. Depending.

You must also remove the blkindex.dat from your %appdata%BottleCaps directory before upgrading.

Binary(and src):
https://github.com/Tranz5/bottlecaps/releases/tag/1.999





Looks awesome!  I deleted my peers.dat and BottleCaps.conf and it still connected to peers right away.

Projects I Contribute To: libzerocoin | Veil | PIVX | HyperStake | Crown | SaluS
techbytes
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May 29, 2014, 05:51:03 AM
 #1979

Any recommendations on a pool for this. my cryptotrolls pool is shutting down, so need a new home for my hashes. the pools on the OP are all in limbo it seems.

please advise, thanks.


cap.cryptopools.com/getting_started


-tb-

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May 29, 2014, 06:01:16 AM
 #1980

I can't believe how quickly the 1.99 wallet started up. Fastest wallet I've ever used so far. Great work,  Tranz.
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