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Question: How many BottleCaps do you own?
None - 86 (39.8%)
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Total Voters: 216

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Author Topic: Bottlecaps 2.1 UPDATE REQUIRED - HARDFORK JULY 4 2014 to 200% Annual PoS  (Read 334656 times)
erundook
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September 01, 2013, 09:50:40 PM
 #1241

BottleCaps trading & mining pool added to the https://coinex.pw exchange


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John Eden
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September 01, 2013, 09:53:02 PM
 #1242

BottleCaps trading & mining pool added to the https://coinex.pw exchange

Thanks for adding the CAPs community

Check out Bottlecaps: https://cryptocointalk.com/forum/242-bottlecaps-cap/  | Check us out on facebook https://www.facebook.com/pages/Bottlecaps/629515757059363 | CAP Foundation donations: F2YX4Aiyk9p2WqXHrrGGgVuskTxCGYpaG9
mullick
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September 01, 2013, 10:12:29 PM
 #1243

...

3: POW has to "reset" work, when a POS or a POW block is found. (That can be changed with two chains, or by forcing the POW to use only POW-hashes.)

...
This is a flaw of design of POS, not a flaw in this coin.
Proof-of-Work is only a temporary emission tool here, it's not a protection mechanism. Proof-of-Work should move away as soon as enough coins will be created. It's a Proof-of-Stake design, Proof-of-Stake is not an addition for Proof-of-Work, it's the replacement.


I lose sight of this sometimes. Prood of stakes primary function is not to help secure the network from hash attacks ect but it does a very good job at that. With caps quick 9 year pow emission model POS will be the primary mechanism for the chain after.

The only reason PPC / NVC use POW at all is because of its efficiency as a initial minting process. The real work will be done By pos in the long run and caps will be a great test and I believe bring valuble insight to the future of the nvc/ ppc blockchain as the initial minting process will end much sooner

At this time I am more concerned about getting the POW cleared up for miners as they are the support for the chain. Also I have planned to remove the hard coded cap of 47433600 as it leaves no room for POS generation which will eventually be the primary method.

Plans are :

Get proof of work on track

Move POS to a model that will be sustainable in the long term as the primary mover of the chain
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September 01, 2013, 10:28:38 PM
 #1244

mullick, you can't use any limited emission model (limited by hard-coded time/height condition) with Proof-of-Stake system.

With caps quick 9 year pow emission model POS will be the primary mechanism for the chain after.
The system don't care about limits or "9-year models". It will become primary mechanism as soon as total stakes volume will be enough to support stable PoS blocks rate at values closer to used target spacing (1 minute in your case). After this PoW will be thrown away through jump of PoW difficulty. In case of massive coins destruction the PoW mechanism comes back to generate more coins in order to restore network stake.

At this time I am more concerned about getting the POW cleared up for miners as they are the support for the chain. Also I have planned to remove the hard coded cap of 47433600 as it leaves no room for POS generation which will eventually be the primary method.
Actually you should remove it, otherwise it will be possible to kill network by coins destruction. For CAP case PoW reward could be fixed at 5-10 coins forever, this will be enough to make such configuration sustainable.

// Hm... Checked the code, and found no limit. Everything is OK, PoW reward be 10 coins forever. It seems that right thing was made accidentally.  Smiley

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September 02, 2013, 01:21:28 AM
 #1245

Ok the coinpayment guys are doing a revote lets get CAPs added!

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=286120.0

Check out Bottlecaps: https://cryptocointalk.com/forum/242-bottlecaps-cap/  | Check us out on facebook https://www.facebook.com/pages/Bottlecaps/629515757059363 | CAP Foundation donations: F2YX4Aiyk9p2WqXHrrGGgVuskTxCGYpaG9
John Eden
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September 02, 2013, 02:44:36 AM
 #1246

Use your CAPs for Visa cards
http://visa4crypto.com

Check out Bottlecaps: https://cryptocointalk.com/forum/242-bottlecaps-cap/  | Check us out on facebook https://www.facebook.com/pages/Bottlecaps/629515757059363 | CAP Foundation donations: F2YX4Aiyk9p2WqXHrrGGgVuskTxCGYpaG9
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September 02, 2013, 05:38:14 AM
 #1247

CAPs now traded on https://phenixex.com


Check out Bottlecaps: https://cryptocointalk.com/forum/242-bottlecaps-cap/  | Check us out on facebook https://www.facebook.com/pages/Bottlecaps/629515757059363 | CAP Foundation donations: F2YX4Aiyk9p2WqXHrrGGgVuskTxCGYpaG9
mullick
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September 02, 2013, 06:01:43 AM
 #1248

This is all great news. The blockchain has cleared this hurdle. We have 3 exchanges as of today that are or will be accepting and trading caps. Plenty of services to spend your caps happily Smiley

Showing no orphans at the pools

cap.coinmine.pl

https://www.multipool.us/stats.php?curr=cap

https://coinex.pw/mining/pools/CAP

Hopefully we can get p2pool setup and a few more pools for users to sink their teeth into.

REMINDER: Small tx values stake fix will kick in on Sept. 9th 00:00:00 GMT Please make sue you have all your clients updated by this point. Encourage others to do so as it is a relatively short protocol change
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September 02, 2013, 06:50:05 AM
 #1249

You were right in that this would likely clear up quickly and it has! Pools looking great with NO orphans anymore. Back on track. Awesome
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September 02, 2013, 06:52:00 AM
 #1250

Orphans will come back 30 days later, for a longer period... And every next period will be longer than previous. Process will continue and eventually period borders will overlap. This process should take 7-12 months approximately.

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September 02, 2013, 06:59:14 AM
 #1251

 
Hash rates have gone up nicely in past couple days as has difficulty to account for this...over 112Mh's currently through four pools and that's without solo mining numbers...with that being said is there an easy way to see or retrieve the overall network hash rate at any given time as there is no "getnetworkhashps" command in the client? (All the pools never have a valid number for this due to the client not having this feature) would love to know if there is easy way to figure this out or if the command could be added to a future client update/release? Thanks
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September 02, 2013, 07:04:57 AM
 #1252

Orphans will come back 30 days later, for a longer period... And every next period will be longer than previous. This process will continue and eventually period borders will overlap. This process should take 7-10 months approximately.

So I have that long to attempt to fix. it. I also found cryptsy was generating massive amounts of stake blocks and when they set their wallets a reservebalance is around the time it cleared up.

I suggested vern move back and fourth between wallets with large transaction from now on as it was the only exchange at the time and is most likely holding a considerable portion of the currency. As of today we will have 3 exchanges trading Bottlecaps.

Thanks again for all the help Balthazar Smiley

As well as YukonCoinelius
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September 02, 2013, 07:07:15 AM
 #1253

So I have that long to attempt to fix.
I don't think that you need to fix anything, that's not a problem. Proof-of-Stake is a security provider in this network, it should replace Proof-of-Work eventually. Otherwise this design has no sense.

when they set their wallets a reservebalance is around the time it cleared up.
They shouldn't do anything like this, because such action will make network weaker. Reservebalance is your enemy.

Instead of this you need find the way to stimulate users hold the stake in their own wallets, not exchanges.

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September 02, 2013, 07:09:39 AM
 #1254


Hash rates have gone up nicely in past couple days as has difficulty to account for this...over 112Mh's currently through four pools and that's without solo mining numbers...with that being said is there an easy way to see or retrieve the overall network hash rate at any given time as there is no "getnetworkhashps" command in the client? (All the pools never have a valid number for this due to the client not having this feature) would love to know if there is easy way to figure this out or if the command could be added to a future client update/release? Thanks

Well for that I will once again be looking at balthazar's fabulous work with NVC Smiley I will contain it in the next update with the improved look of the wallet. Im also looking at making some possible improvments of my own to Bitcoins coin control project and implementing it as an optional part of the QT. As well as a few things to assist in further debugging some of the more minor issues.

All of this as I work to straighten out the stake settings
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September 02, 2013, 07:31:45 AM
 #1255

So I have that long to attempt to fix.
I don't think that you need to fix anything, that's not a problem. Proof-of-Stake is a security provider in this network, it should replace Proof-of-Work eventually. Otherwise this design has no sense.

Yes I understand thats how stake is supposed to work. Take over as the primary. But I myself and I believe most users would prefer that POW continue to be slightly more stable for the short to medium term. My hope is increasing stake time to a more reasonable 2.5 to 3 minutes may allow the POW blocks to continue to achieve a higher % of the block when we encounter situation like this. My understanding is the majority of the flood came from the cryptsy wallets and if I continue to let POS take over a huge shares of blocks like that it wont be "fair" to the miners and stake minters themselves as they are not the one getting the benefits of the stake for the most part

With a 3 minute stake spacing and 1 minute pow spacing hopefully less pow blocks will be orphaned as the difficulty can adjust better for POS. The original developer thought he had put a cap on POW generation at 9 years or x amount of coins. It may not have worked out that way but i can implement it correctly by severely lowering or removing POW reward when it was supposed to be


My hope is basically extending times and adjusting difficulty retarget will allow the life of POW to be extended further as the primary coin generation method and not become a orphan spree from the big holders ( in this case exchanges) because so few users have had the ability to gain the coin generation from POW. Hopfeully in the future there will be more and more individuals holding a healthy amount of stake and at that point it wont be the  exchanges benefiting from POS it will be the user

These are all just possibilities. I am open to any and all suggestions. I just believe users expected POW minting to be feasable for the 9 years advertised and am hoping to make it so they work together nicely until POW reward diminishes and POS takes over as the primary. 3 minute blocks is still rather fast and more stable than 1 minute
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September 02, 2013, 07:38:47 AM
 #1256


Instead of this you need find the way to stimulate users hold the stake in their own wallets, not exchanges.

I am hoping the longer POW stays the primary coin generation mechanism more ad more users will hold their locally coins for stake versus exchanges is what im getting at.

If pow blocks are orphaned at a rate above 50% continuously like that mining of the currency will be wastefull in a sense,

With 3 minute stake and 1 minute POW they should mix well together even with continuous 3 minute stake blocks until POW reward diminishes

Its more apparent in CAps i believe because of the short block times. PPC POW remains profitable due to the longer block times less POW / POS blocks intersecting leaving POW blocks orphaned. In order to compensate for the shorter time between blocks I feel it needs to be staggered with slower POS block generation that POW. Since 3 minutes is still a fast network I think its a ideal timing

EDIT again: But that brings back your issue of coin destruction if i get rid of POW reward... It will require more thought as it will really be a differant system what im thinking. Perhaps ill take the night and think it over some more
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September 02, 2013, 08:08:58 AM
 #1257

So this is how POS works in my wallet...

I find a POS block, it removes 10 coins from my wallet(POW) and creates 10 as "Stake"... Stays that way until 25 confirms... Once it hits 26 confirms, it removes itself from "stake", and comes back as 10 deposit as a normal coin.

After the second POS block, it removes 10 coins from my wallet(POW) and creates 10.01 as "Stake"... Stays that way until 25 confirms... Once it hits 26 confirms, it removes itself from "stake", and comes back as 10.01 deposit as a normal coin.

Thus, it removes 20, which comes back as 20.01... All within 25 blocks, or about 25-60 minutes.

This is where I am confused...

I thought the "staked" coins were going to stay "staked" for 90 days... Then, on each new stake-block, it would look at the qty of "stake", and reward 0.02% of the "total staked"...

Thus... It would do this... as described by POS documentation.

10 POS
10 POS (20 total) Reward 0.01 (0.01 total)
10 POS (30 total)
10 POS (40 total) Reward 0.02 (0.03 total)
10 POS (50 total)
10 POS (60 total) Reward 0.03 (0.06 total)
10 POS (70 total)
10 POS (80 total) Reward 0.04 (0.10 total)
10 POS (90 total)
10 POS (100 total) Reward 0.05 (0.15 total)
-10 moved, (90 total) ** 90 day mark... here... so it removes these 10 staked back to wallet
10 POS (100 total) Reward 0.05 (0.20 total)
-10 moved (90 total) **
-10 moved (80 total) **
-10 moved (70 total) **
10 POS (80 total) Reward 0.04 (0.24 total) ... lost 4 expired stake, gained 2 more POS blocks

However, we are getting this... Which would NEVER replace POW, ever. Not at 0.05% reward on only 20 coins, each time.

10
10 reward 0.01 (10 moves back)
10 (10.01 moves back)
10 reward 0.01 (10 moves back)
10 (10.01 moves back)
10 reward 0.01 (10 moves back)
10 (10.01 moves back)
10 reward 0.01 (10 moves back)
(10.01 moves back)

resulting in 0 staked

I have had over 4000 coins move to stake, but they nearly instantly move back, resulting in 2 coins of total reward. Currently 10.01 staked now, but that will be gone in 5 more confirms, moved back to normal coins. I would imagine that I would have 4000 staked for 90 days, since it has not been 90 days since they became staked. (They became staked after the 30 day mark.)

I have had up to 60.06 staked, but reward is always 0.05% of 20, not 0.05% of "total staked coins" which would be 60.06, with an expected reward of 0.03 to add to the 60.06, making it 10.03 + 60.06 = 70.09
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September 02, 2013, 08:18:31 AM
 #1258

^ appears to be true and correct...but why? It *should* work as laid out in beginning section of above
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September 02, 2013, 08:23:24 AM
 #1259

If the reward is going to be constant like that...

You might as well just make every POS block reward 0.005 coins, since that is all it is doing... besides holding 10 of our coins for 25 confirms moving them back so they don't appear "stake ready", (a few minutes), each time. (Which, by the way, is a lot of dust transactions of 0.01 you are going to burden us with. It will cost us more in tx-fees to send what we ever earn.)

Also, if POS is done that fast, and causing trouble by being fast... then why have it fast/easy... Apparently there is plenty of time for POS to be found. Why have it choke the network at all, unless there is TONS due, thus, it needs to be done faster. (Seems backwards now)

BTW, the low orphan rate is better, partially because of the POS rush over, and greatly because the DIFF went over 90K (1.37) That is a sweet spot. Lower (around 0.65) and the orphans will be many again, with or without POS. That is just how fast-coins are, when they don't propagate fast enough. Luck is not linear with DIFF, and time is the major "issue". There needs to be a non-linear curve to match the DIFF target, and a minimum DIFF, to stop the "time" factor from being less than 1 minute. (As opposed to a target of 1 minute.) But again, this works equally as well as the other coins. Which all also have that flaw by design.

(Just adding... I am getting more, as usual, at 1.78 {117K} diff than 1.37 {90K}, and way more than 0.80 {53K}. Thus, my observation mentioned in the above. Which is true of all fast coins... but after 1.78 {117K}, I begin getting less, as expected. {Total blocks accepted, orphans and rejects.})

For those who are still unaware...
Orphan = submitted, because no other block was "found" as far as your wallet knows... but rejected by the network, because a block was found, you just didn't get it fast enough.
Rejected = not submitted, because you were still "working" on your solution in your miner, but your wallet had gotten a new block, and you were just not finished with your "workload size", before you submitted it. EG, you were still busy looking for a solution after your wallet discovered there was already a solution posted. Thus, you had to scrap that work and get the new hash, to build off that new block and start working again on a new solution.

Thus, my reason for using the smallest workload size on fast coins. (Has no impact on slow coins, because the time between coins is longer and solutions are further apart.)
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September 02, 2013, 09:57:08 AM
 #1260

Some confusion about how stake functions.

When a stake block is hit Its for a transaction. Say you are solo mining They would come in 10's like you described. Those 10 coins are moved to the stake collumn until your POS  block matures ( 25 blocks). When it does you receive them back as 1 transaction or 10.01 coins. You then have to wait at least 30 days for that transaction to be staked again. POS is not a currency generation system. Its to secure the network after the initial mining process with POW is done. True caps will have a higher reward making it more profitably to do but wont be as profitable as POW. Hence the reason I will be working to keep POW active longer

Sorry for the short explanation shoot me any more questions and I will answer in the morning

Also the low difficult was the result of the orphans from POS.

The algorithm looks backwards at block times to determine how it adjusts. Since so many were orphans block times were far apart keeping difficulty low. When it cleared up the difficulty returned

EDIT: You can get larger POS blocks. Just move your coins in a larger transactions. Although you will receive the same % and you are securing the network more by keeping the tx sizes small and generating more blocks
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