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MooC Tals
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July 06, 2013, 07:34:34 PM |
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 Looks like everyone is getting BFL'd |
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ASIC-K
Sr. Member
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Activity: 280
Merit: 250
Hell?
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July 06, 2013, 07:36:54 PM |
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i asked for a refund a couple days ago. no response. i did file a paypal complaint and just waiting on that now. its been in dispute for the last 3 days. no response from bfl yet. wha ta terrible piece of crap company. i cant believe they are still taking NEW ORDERS. wtf.
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Inedible
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July 06, 2013, 07:48:10 PM |
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Looks like everyone is getting BFL'd This is fair if you expected delivery in several months. Something most people ordering now should expect or have been told. Only the people who ordered months ago and were continually promised "soon" have any grounds for a refund. |
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Flying Hellfish
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Activity: 1764
Merit: 1754
Verified Bernie Bro - Feel The Bern!
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July 06, 2013, 08:46:21 PM |
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Getting a customer to agree to something that is against federal regulations will not relieve BFL of complying with those regulations LDO. When a company offers a product for sale that is not in stock they must provide a definitive shipping date, I doubt many people think 2 months OR more is definitive. When the first delivery date is missed a new revised definitive delivery date must be given along with a reason for the delay. They must also obtain the customers approval for the first delay and EACH delay after (which they must also supply a definitive date and reason for). If they do not provide this info or obtain the customers consent they actually must refund the customer. The company must also cancel an order and issue a refund if the customer exercises any option to cancel the order BEFORE the product ships. In order for a sale to take place a person must pay for and receive a product (or service), until the customer receives his product (or it ships) a sale has not taken place and hence why it is called an order and not a sale yet, hence all sales are final in this situation is not applicable. Typically All Sales are Final refers to once a customer receives the product that they are then not able to return the product for a refund (after the sale has taken place). This is all my interpretation of what I have researched IANAL. http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rulehttps://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=250985.0File a complaint with the FTC. |
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btceic
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July 06, 2013, 08:52:18 PM |
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http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-ruleWhen You Must Cancel an Order
You must cancel an order and provide a prompt refund when:
the customer exercises any option to cancel before you ship the merchandise;
the customer does not respond to your first notice of a definite revised shipment date of 30 days or less and you have not shipped the merchandise or received the customer’s consent to a further delay by the definite revised shipment date;
the customer does not respond to your notice of a definite revised shipment date of more than 30 days (or your notice that you are unable to provide a definite revised shipment date) and you have not shipped the merchandise within 30 days of the original shipment date;
the customer consents to a definite delay and you have not shipped or obtained the customer’s consent to any additional delay by the shipment time the customer consented to;
you have not shipped or provided the required delay or renewed option notices on time; or
you determine that you will never be able to ship the merchandise.
Edit: sorry I didn't see that flying hellfish above this post, posted the same thing.
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crumbs
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July 06, 2013, 08:56:34 PM |
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I haven't read the BFL contract, but i'm sure they've circumvented this (30-day rule) by explicitly stating that shipping within 30 days is not guaranteed. |
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satcircle
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July 06, 2013, 09:14:50 PM |
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and the sage continues.....
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btceic
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July 06, 2013, 09:19:26 PM |
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and the sage saga continues.....
ftfy |
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Flying Hellfish
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Activity: 1764
Merit: 1754
Verified Bernie Bro - Feel The Bern!
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July 06, 2013, 10:26:25 PM |
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I haven't read the BFL contract, but i'm sure they've circumvented this (30-day rule) by explicitly stating that shipping within 30 days is not guaranteed. Read the entire rule, if a company sells a product that is not in stock they must provide a DEFINITIVE shipping date (if no is provided it defaults to 30 days), last I saw there site said 2 months or more. This is very unlikely to be considered definitive. It is not relevant what they say in the contract if they do not comply with regulations. Simply making a customer agree to something that is against regulations will not relieve BFL of complying with those regulations. I pointed out both of those in my initial post and I don't see where you have made an argument that those two points don't apply. |
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canth
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Activity: 1442
Merit: 1001
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July 06, 2013, 10:29:35 PM |
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I haven't read the BFL contract, but i'm sure they've circumvented this (30-day rule) by explicitly stating that shipping within 30 days is not guaranteed. Read the entire rule, if a company sells a product that is not in stock they must provide a DEFINITIVE shipping date (if no is provided it defaults to 30 days), last I saw there site said 2 months or more. This is very unlikely to be considered definitive. It is not relevant what they say in the contract if they do not comply with regulations. Simply making a customer agree to something that is against regulations will not relieve BFL of complying with those regulations. I pointed out both of those in my initial post and I don't see where you have made an argument that those two points don't apply. +1. Consumer protection laws cannot just be 'waived' because the company puts some ridiculous policy in place. |
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kopipe
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July 06, 2013, 11:02:40 PM |
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Getting a customer to agree to something that is against federal regulations will not relieve BFL of complying with those regulations LDO. When a company offers a product for sale that is not in stock they must provide a definitive shipping date, I doubt many people think 2 months OR more is definitive. When the first delivery date is missed a new revised definitive delivery date must be given along with a reason for the delay. They must also obtain the customers approval for the first delay and EACH delay after (which they must also supply a definitive date and reason for). If they do not provide this info or obtain the customers consent they actually must refund the customer. The company must also cancel an order and issue a refund if the customer exercises any option to cancel the order BEFORE the product ships. In order for a sale to take place a person must pay for and receive a product (or service), until the customer receives his product (or it ships) a sale has not taken place and hence why it is called an order and not a sale yet, hence all sales are final in this situation is not applicable. Typically All Sales are Final refers to once a customer receives the product that they are then not able to return the product for a refund (after the sale has taken place). This is all my interpretation of what I have researched IANAL. http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rulehttps://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=250985.0File a complaint with the FTC. Very interesting. I have never done business with them but anyone who has purchased from this scammer should file a complaint with the FTC. |
コピペ copypaste
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crumbs
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July 06, 2013, 11:15:03 PM |
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I haven't read the BFL contract, but i'm sure they've circumvented this (30-day rule) by explicitly stating that shipping within 30 days is not guaranteed. Read the entire rule, if a company sells a product that is not in stock they must provide a DEFINITIVE shipping date (if no is provided it defaults to 30 days), last I saw there site said 2 months or more. This is very unlikely to be considered definitive. It is not relevant what they say in the contract if they do not comply with regulations. Simply making a customer agree to something that is against regulations will not relieve BFL of complying with those regulations. I pointed out both of those in my initial post and I don't see where you have made an argument that those two points don't apply. Sorry, could you quote me a full line from the section you're referring to? These are the only two instances of the word "stock" in the whole document: "in-stock items ship immediately," unless you tell consumer when they order that the item is not in stock, you will be required to ship, provide notification of delay, or cancel the order immediately. |
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Flying Hellfish
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Activity: 1764
Merit: 1754
Verified Bernie Bro - Feel The Bern!
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July 07, 2013, 12:21:59 AM |
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I haven't read the BFL contract, but i'm sure they've circumvented this (30-day rule) by explicitly stating that shipping within 30 days is not guaranteed. I pointed out both of those in my initial post and I don't see where you have made an argument that those two points don't apply. Sorry, could you quote me a full line from the section you're referring to? These are the only two instances of the word "stock" in the whole document: "in-stock items ship immediately," unless you tell consumer when they order that the item is not in stock, you will be required to ship, provide notification of delay, or cancel the order immediately.Read the entire rule, if a company sells a product they must provide a DEFINITIVE shipping date (if no is provided it defaults to 30 days), last I saw there site said 2 months or more. This is very unlikely to be considered definitive. It is not relevant what they say in the contract if they do not comply with regulations. Simply making a customer agree to something that is against regulations will not relieve BFL of complying with those regulations. I removed the word stock and it does not change the statement at all basically. Your throwing out or chasing a red herring. Let me quote two relevant sections of the FTC mail order rule. Here the FTC states IMO quite clearly that a consumer has the right to cancel and order by exercising ANY option BEFORE the product ships and the company MUST provide a prompt refund. When You Must Cancel an Order You must cancel an order and provide a prompt refund when: •the customer exercises any option to cancel before you ship the merchandise; This is a pretty blanket statement by the FTC and I don't see how BFL can refuse a customer a refund for any reason. Next let's assume for the moment BFL sent out information and received every customers consent for an infinite delay. According to the FTC one of the pieces of information that is required to be sent from BFL to the client is the following: What Later Notices Must Say If you cannot ship the merchandise by the definite revised shipment date included in your most recent delay option notice, before that date you must seek the consent of your customers to any further delay. You must do this by providing customers a "renewed" delay option notice. A renewed delay option notice is similar in many ways to the first delay option notice. One important difference: the customer’s silence may not be treated as a consent to delay. A renewed delay option notice must include: •a new definite revised shipment date or, if unknown, a statement that you are unable to provide any date; •a statement that, if the customer chooses not to wait, the customer can cancel the order immediately and obtain a full and prompt refund; •a statement that, unless you receive notice that the customer agrees to wait beyond the most recent definite revised shipment date and you have not shipped by then, the customer’s order automatically will be cancelled and a prompt refund will be provided; and •some means for the customer to inform you at your expense (e.g., by providing a postage prepaid reply card or toll-free telephone number) whether the customer agrees to the delay or is canceling the order. •the following information when you cannot provide a new definite revised shipping date: •the reason for the delay, and •a statement that, if the customer agrees to the indefinite delay, the customer may cancel the order any time until you ship.http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule |
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rovchris
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July 07, 2013, 12:44:38 AM |
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I am just going to remove all my card details from paypal and then initiate a charge back through HSBC.
I have no issue with doing battle with Paypal - the fault lies with Paypal for not evaluating the business that they approved to accept Paypal payments - maybe their risk assessment team should have considered that they did not actually have a working product to sell before giving them a Paypal business account.
All that did was give BFL an air of authenticity and probably increased the number of orders that were made. So in essence Paypal have actually made the problem worse. I would not have placed an order if I could not pay by paypal or credit card and I am sure there are numerous other people who felt the same.
Paypal can block my account all they want. But I have a funny feeling over the next couple of weeks the number of people looking for a refund is going to grow exponentially and Paypal will have significant sums charged back - this will then force them to confront BFL.
If BFL can still not give a delivery date at this point they will not have a leg to stand on and that is if they do not disappear overnight first.
Lets look at the facts - why would they not refund if their accounts are in a healthy state and they have a huge backlog of orders that they are "struggling" to fill. It would be in their interest to clear the backlog as quickly as possible. People cancelling orders would help them do this and enable them to ship products quicker to people that actually want them.
I don't think they have the money to refund the orders.
BFL should probably add to the terms and conditions "All sales are final unless you initiate a charge back through your credit card provider and then you will get your money back"
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tstang
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July 07, 2013, 12:49:37 AM |
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I have filed for a refund and paid for it via Paypal and within 45 days. Hopefully , Paypal do their job as promise.
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crumbs
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July 07, 2013, 12:50:45 AM |
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[...]Read the entire rule, if a company sells a product they must provide a DEFINITIVE shipping date (if no is provided it defaults to 30 days), last I saw there site said 2 months or more. This is very unlikely to be considered definitive. It is not relevant what they say in the contract if they do not comply with regulations. Simply making a customer agree to something that is against regulations will not relieve BFL of complying with those regulations.
I removed the word stock and it does not change the statement at all basically.
Jeesh, brutal here! I said i didn't read the BFL contract, and just asked you to point me to a spot in the document, so i wouldn't have to read the whole thing. I am not BFL, I have no incentive for defending them, just dumb idle curiosity. That said: I started reading the page you linked to, and here's what i found: If you make no shipment statement, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days. That is why direct marketers sometimes call this the "30-day Rule."Boldface is mine. There's a reason. The reason is this: i suspect BFL was smart enough to *explicitly* state in their contract that they can not guarantee a timely delivery, thus saving me the headache of having to riddle out the details of the 30-day rule, which doesn't seem to apply here. In other words, they probably *did* make a shipment statement, making the stuff that follows the emboldened text inapplicable. Or not. If someone wins a hefty settlement, i hope they remember me kindly. Edit: Really didn't mean to stir up shit here, i realize this is a sore topic for folks here. Sorry. Hindsight. |
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rovchris
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July 07, 2013, 01:07:03 AM
Last edit: July 07, 2013, 01:25:29 AM by rovchris |
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BFL have destroyed themselves. Josh is acting like a child in their forum - Who on earth is going to trust this company - denying reasonable requests for a refund when they REFUSE to give a delivery date. Josh is now stating they have shipped more ASICS than any other vendor apart from Block Erupter and then refuses to say how many units they have shipped. He then has the cheek to post this in response to a question So I'm curious how you know how many orders we ship per day?
and as someone quite rightly says How about you just tell us?
and then silence again. https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/3703-josh-its-time-update-bfl-asic-status-3.htmlAs much as I think AVALON are tools they have without a doubt shipped more units and GHs than BFL. I am going to say that it is just a ponzi scheme - how it can still say on their website orders may take 2 months or more for the past 5 months is the sign of a scam artist. All they have done is ship a handful of units so it actually looks like they are doing something. |
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Flying Hellfish
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1754
Verified Bernie Bro - Feel The Bern!
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July 07, 2013, 01:17:06 AM |
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[...]Read the entire rule, if a company sells a product they must provide a DEFINITIVE shipping date (if no is provided it defaults to 30 days), last I saw there site said 2 months or more. This is very unlikely to be considered definitive. It is not relevant what they say in the contract if they do not comply with regulations. Simply making a customer agree to something that is against regulations will not relieve BFL of complying with those regulations.
I removed the word stock and it does not change the statement at all basically.
Jeesh, brutal here! I said i didn't read the BFL contract, and just asked you to point me to a spot in the document, so i wouldn't have to read the whole thing. I am not BFL, I have no incentive for defending them, just dumb idle curiosity. That said: I started reading the page you linked to, and here's what i found: If you make no shipment statement, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days. That is why direct marketers sometimes call this the "30-day Rule."Boldface is mine. There's a reason. The reason is this: i suspect BFL was smart enough to *explicitly* state in their contract that they can not guarantee a timely delivery, thus saving me the headache of having to riddle out the details of the 30-day rule, which doesn't seem to apply here. In other words, they probably *did* make a shipment statement, making the stuff that follows the emboldened text inapplicable. Or not. If someone wins a hefty settlement, i hope they remember me kindly. Edit: Really didn't mean to stir up shit here, i realize this is a sore topic for folks here. Sorry. Hindsight. I agree that the terms on their website indicate they are asking people to agree to an indefinite delay (or shipping estimate if you prefer). That is what you are saying isn't it? In my opinion "2 months or more" is about as indefinite as you can get and that is what BFL made their customers agree to. If I have read your statement correctly, then BFL must (according to the FTC) provide the following information to the customer AND get his consent. •a statement that, if the customer agrees to the indefinite delay, the customer may cancel the order any time until you ship. |
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rovchris
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July 07, 2013, 01:24:40 AM |
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[...]Read the entire rule, if a company sells a product they must provide a DEFINITIVE shipping date (if no is provided it defaults to 30 days), last I saw there site said 2 months or more. This is very unlikely to be considered definitive. It is not relevant what they say in the contract if they do not comply with regulations. Simply making a customer agree to something that is against regulations will not relieve BFL of complying with those regulations.
I removed the word stock and it does not change the statement at all basically.
Jeesh, brutal here! I said i didn't read the BFL contract, and just asked you to point me to a spot in the document, so i wouldn't have to read the whole thing. I am not BFL, I have no incentive for defending them, just dumb idle curiosity. That said: I started reading the page you linked to, and here's what i found: If you make no shipment statement, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days. That is why direct marketers sometimes call this the "30-day Rule."Boldface is mine. There's a reason. The reason is this: i suspect BFL was smart enough to *explicitly* state in their contract that they can not guarantee a timely delivery, thus saving me the headache of having to riddle out the details of the 30-day rule, which doesn't seem to apply here. In other words, they probably *did* make a shipment statement, making the stuff that follows the emboldened text inapplicable. Or not. If someone wins a hefty settlement, i hope they remember me kindly. Edit: Really didn't mean to stir up shit here, i realize this is a sore topic for folks here. Sorry. Hindsight. I agree that the terms on their website indicate they are asking people to agree to an indefinite delay (or shipping estimate if you prefer). That is what you are saying isn't it? In my opinion "2 months or more" is about as indefinite as you can get and that is what BFL made their customers agree to. If I have read your statement correctly, then BFL must (according to the FTC) provide the following information to the customer AND get his consent. •a statement that, if the customer agrees to the indefinite delay, the customer may cancel the order any time until you ship. I just sent an email to Paypal - pointing out what you stated - I will let you know what they say. |
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Inedible
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July 07, 2013, 03:14:38 AM |
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Very nice work Flying Hellfish!
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