[Sell] Avalon batch #2 by escrow, start at 60 BTC, cancel if it arrives too late

[dogie]

153

[1714893126]

1714893126

[1714893126]

1714893126

[1714893126]

1714893126

[1714893126]

1714893126

[michelet]

155

[dogie]

156

[dogie]

Boom

[jadatkins]

155

Sold, to dogie for 156.

The auction is now closed. Thanks for all your interest.

[jadatkins]

156

Whoops, the quotes got a bit messed up there. I'm considering this sold to dogie for 156.

[jadatkins]

There is a dispute as to whether dogie or michelet should be the winner so I am unlocking the thread so that we discuss it in public rather than by group PM.

[michelet]

Thank you for the unlock, I appreciate.

Yes, we have a problem here.

One of the rule of the auction is: here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=245629.msg2625078#msg2625078
For the lazy one, I cut and copy here: "I'm announcing that the auction is closing in 24 hours, that is Tuesday 2 July at: 12:00 noon England, British Summer Time"

Reading this, I appointed it in my calendar and scheduled my day around this.
To be sure to respect the rules, I opened a web page in internet reporting the England Brithis summer Time.
A few seconds before the end of the auction, I posted my bid. That has been outbidded a few seconds later, but not in time for my clock.

The seller take this last bid.

But as everyone can test, forum time is at least 10 seconds in late. So this last bid come after 12:00 ENGLAND BST.

So the winning bid is mine, and for my point of view forum time doesn't count. I deliberately didn't use forum time! It is the first auction in which I use another clock just because it was in the rules. Otherwise I would have used forum time like usual.

I privately contacted the wrong winner and the seller. I already have 4 avalons, I can survive without another one but I think that if there's a rule it must be respected, otherwise these auctions don't have a meaning and I don't think I have to not report this.

[elasticband]

sounds valid to me

[hdcafe]

 michelet is the winner.

[michelet]

sounds valid to me

Are you sure elastic? Do you know i will have more hashrate than you if i bring this home?
j/k

[jadatkins]

The facts are:

• The forum time is not quite accurate; it is about ten seconds slow.
• michelet's last bid therefore was placed at about 11:59:55 BST, and dogie's bid of BTC156 at about 12:00:05 BST.
• In the first post of this thread, I say that the auctions ends when I say that it has ended. In a later post, I say that I will give 24 hours' notice, and in yet another post, I say that it will end at 12 noon BST.
• At no point do I make any reference to forum time, but nor do I make it clear that the auction will end at 12:00:00 exactly to the second.
• Since the dawn of time, it has been usual for off-line auctions to end when nobody wants to bid any more, but the extremely popular online auction website eBay uses instead a different system where auctions end at a very precise time, regardless of whether there have been any bids in the last few minutes or not.

1. Have I missed anything relevant?

2. All of the above considered, I believe both dogie and michelet have a valid claim to be the winner of the auction. Obviously it makes little difference to me to whom I sell it. From my interpretation of the rules as they were stated, I personally think that dogie has the better claim, because i) I wouldn't expect the timing to be so precise (I'd expect to allow bids up to a minute or two late) and ii) I think it is implied that I would make a post to confirm that the auction is closed. But by no means do I consider this matter settled.

For myself, I would be happy to allow the auction to continue indefinitely between dogie and michelet only, but only if both of them were happy with this. If not, my only options are:
a) flip a coin
b) interpret the rules as best I can
c) take arbitration from someone else or from the community at large

I'm happy with any of the options a, b and c. I reject michelet's view that his is the only possible interpretation of the rules.

[elasticband]

sounds valid to me

Are you sure elastic? Do you know i will have more hashrate than you if i bring this home?
j/k

Yeah it's OK, I got to be higher this week who knows what might come on offer next week though

I had to try really hard not to bid on this one.....

 

[michelet]

The facts are:

• The forum time is not quite accurate; it is about ten seconds slow.
• michelet's last bid therefore was placed at about 11:59:55 BST, and dogie's bid of BTC156 at about 12:00:05 BST.
• In the first post of this thread, I say that the auctions ends when I say that it has ended. In a later post, I say that I will give 24 hours' notice, and in yet another post, I say that it will end at 12 noon BST.
• At no point do I make any reference to forum time, but nor do I make it clear that the auction will end at 12:00:00 exactly to the second.
• Since the dawn of time, it has been usual for off-line auctions to end when nobody wants to bid any more, but the extremely popular online auction website eBay uses instead a different system where auctions end at a very precise time, regardless of whether there have been any bids in the last few minutes or not.

1. Have I missed anything relevant?

2. All of the above considered, I believe both dogie and michelet have a valid claim to be the winner of the auction. Obviously it makes little difference to me to whom I sell it. From my interpretation of the rules as they were stated, I personally think that dogie has the better claim, because i) I wouldn't expect the timing to be so precise (I'd expect to allow bids up to a minute or two late) and ii) I think it is implied that I would make a post to confirm that the auction is closed. But by no means do I consider this matter settled.

For myself, I would be happy to allow the auction to continue indefinitely between dogie and michelet only, but only if both of them were happy with this. If not, my only options are:
a) flip a coin
b) interpret the rules as best I can
c) take arbitration from someone else or from the community at large

I'm happy with any of the options a, b and c. I reject michelet's view that his is the only possible interpretation of the rules.

I would respect the opinion of a trusted member of your choice that doesn't mind to read all the rules you have stated, and the winner pay a tip for his precious time.
Or I like this coin thing, in any digital version. I respect the fate also

[jadatkins]

I would respect the opinion of a trusted member of your choice that doesn't mind to read all the rules you have stated, and the winner pay a tip for his precious time.
Or I like this coin thing, in any digital version. I respect the fate also

Let's flip a coin then (based on the blockchain or something) - it's the most transparent and uses the least of people's time. Assuming dogie's ok with that; I'll PM him to draw his attention.

[ProfMac]

I would respect the opinion of a trusted member of your choice that doesn't mind to read all the rules you have stated, and the winner pay a tip for his precious time.
Or I like this coin thing, in any digital version. I respect the fate also

I have read all the rules, both as they were freshly published, and again just now.

My opinion is that the clear intent was to end the auction exactly at 12:00 BST, but that pesky little word was not affirmatively included.
I think that all other parties also perceive the same intent.

The only question that I think is open are these:  what was the time, and how do we know?  I think the problem exists because the forum time is not correct, something jadatkins did not have control over.  As auctioneer, he has authority to take extraordinary measure to fix problems.

I recommend to recreate the situation that the auction will end within seconds and there is only time to make one final bid:

Reset the auction to BTC 155 with michelet winning.
Open the bidding to the two of them, and limit them to 1 final bid per person.  
The auction is over when Jadatkins makes a post saying that it is.  Announce approximately how much time you will give.
The unit has made it to London.  Remove the option to back out of any newly made bid.

[dogie]

I would respect the opinion of a trusted member of your choice that doesn't mind to read all the rules you have stated, and the winner pay a tip for his precious time.
Or I like this coin thing, in any digital version. I respect the fate also

I have read all the rules, both as they were freshly published, and again just now.

My opinion is that the clear intent was to end the auction exactly at 12:00 BST, but that pesky little word was not affirmatively included.
I think that all other parties also perceive the same intent.

The only question that I think is open are these:  what was the time, and how do we know?  I think the problem exists because the forum time is not correct, something jadatkins did not have control over.  As auctioneer, he has authority to take extraordinary measure to fix problems.

I recommend to recreate the situation that the auction will end within seconds and there is only time to make one final bid:

Reset the auction to BTC 155 with michelet winning.
Open the bidding to the two of them, and limit them to 1 final bid per person. 
The auction is over when Jadatkins makes a post saying that it is.  Announce approximately how much time you will give.
The unit has made it to London.  Remove the option to back out of any newly made bid.

You are known only for your ridiculously complicated auctions that took 70 posts, literally to try and explain. And 2 reposts, and even then people didn't get it - this is not your auction.

This was a simple auction, we bid, its closed. The auction timer closed at BST midday - 01 July 2013, 12:00:00 according to forum time. Why would there by any other source of time that could vary significantly between people?

My desktop clock probably isn't synced to yours, which isn't synced to the next person. Why would we use that as a source of time? The forum time is the ONLY one which is synced by default, and creates an indisputable time stamp.

There is no problem here.

[dogie]

156

Today at 11:59:57. That is before midday, in the BST time zone.

[jadatkins]

I'm going to ask John K. to give a look-in. I don't think the three of us can agree on this. Even dogie's and my views are different (dogie's that the auction was implied to end at noon forum time, mine that if the forum time were several minutes out then the auction would be ending roughly at noon, but not precisely, end of auction to be defined by when I make a final post).

[jadatkins]

The unit has made it to London.  Remove the option to back out of any newly made bid.

Yes, the package is in London so rule 6 no longer applies.