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Author Topic: Why the Left Fears Libertarianism  (Read 5295 times)
LastBattle
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July 02, 2011, 06:03:52 PM
 #101

Quote
You've got the rhetoric down well: list only the negatives of government, list only the positives of private business.

Hold on. Let me demonstrate. Notable points will be in ALL CAPS.
Quote
You'll overlook private market greed giving birth to companies like Enron, who systematically decreased electricity supply to sections of California to fake a lack of supply, thus allowing them to jack electricity prices and tack on obscene service charges to fix problems that never existed.  The free market did that.

Paid for by the CALIFORNIAN GOVERNMENT, Enron was NOT CAUGHT BY GOVERNMENT REGULATORS WHO REGULARLY TAKE MONEY WITH THE EXPRESS PURPOSE OF STOPPING THIS, but by a PRIVATE SECTOR TRADER WHO SHORT SOLD THEM AND RESULTED IN THEIR EXPOSURE. If you seriously think California has a free energy industry because it pays specific companies to do its dirty work, then you are high.

Quote
You'll forget about all the factory farms that cut corners on cleanliness and pest control, action that has led to numerous e.coli and salmonela outbreaks in the last few years.  That's the free market's standard of food safety.

How is the FDA working out for you? Doesn't sound like a free market to me.
Quote
Let's just ignore tobacco companies that knew the negative affects of their products as early as the 1930's, but continued to market them as perfectly safe until government regulation cracked down on them over thirty years later.

We already know tobacco is dangerous. If people want to smoke, then that is no one else's damn business. The government is not a mother.
Quote
So easily you forget AIG that sidestepped and mislead regulators about the finanical instruments they had created, of course, out of greed, and brought world-wide financial system collapse - because they only cared about themselves and making a quick buck.

You are right: AIG is crooked! But wait! AIG was receiving SUPPORT FROM GOVERNMENT AGENCIES IN THE FORM OF INCENTIVES AS WELL AS EASY CREDIT FROM THE AMERICAN CENTRAL BANK, THE FEDERAL RESERVE. Then, after failing (as they rightly should have and would have in a free market), they RECEIVED A TAXPAYER PROVIDED BAILOUT THAT REMOVED MORAL HAZARD.

Quote
And oh, all the Chinese companies using lead paint in toys. Forget about them, they don't matter. That's the free market saving a buck at the expense of the populace. That didn't stop until government regulators put an end to it.

We all know Communist China has a free market, don't we? Oh wait, they have a corporatist system which protects Chinese companies from prosecution. Whoops.

It looks to me like you are exposing the flaws of corporatism and the failure of government regulation, not any particular problems with the free market.

You're standing on a flagstone running with blood, alone and so very lonely because you can't choose but you had to

I take tips to: 14sF7NNGJzXvoBcfbLR6N4Exy8umCAqdBd
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July 02, 2011, 06:05:41 PM
 #102

You've got the rhetoric down well: list only the negatives of government, list only the positives of private business.

You'll overlook private market greed giving birth to companies like Enron, who systematically decreased electricity supply to sections of California to fake a lack of supply, thus allowing them to jack electricity prices and tack on obscene service charges to fix problems that never existed.  The free market did that.

You'll forget about all the factory farms that cut corners on cleanliness and pest control, action that has led to numerous e.coli and salmonela outbreaks in the last few years.  That's the free market's standard of food safety.

Let's just ignore tobacco companies that knew the negative affects of their products as early as the 1930's, but continued to market them as perfectly safe until government regulation cracked down on them over thirty years later.

So easily you forget AIG that sidestepped and mislead regulators about the finanical instruments they had created, of course, out of greed, and brought world-wide financial system collapse - because they only cared about themselves and making a quick buck.

And oh, all the Chinese companies using lead paint in toys. Forget about them, they don't matter. That's the free market saving a buck at the expense of the populace. That didn't stop until government regulators put an end to it.



You criticize market advocates for "listing only the negatives of government, and listing only the positives of private business." And then the rest of your post is you committing the same offense in reverse.

Let's examine your examples:

1) Enron - First of all, the energy industry is one of the most regulated of all. Please don't claim it's a "free market." It's not even close. Second, the moment it was discovered that Enron was cooking the books and scamming people, it's share price collapsed to zero and it went out of business. Now it's gone, and it's leaders are behind bars for fraud (punishing fraud is one legitimate role of government). This is an example of GOOD interaction between gov and business. The market collapsed the company when the fraud was discovered. The gov put away the criminals. Well done all.

2)  Factory farms and clean food - You watch too much television news. Food in the United States is extremely safe, let's not pretend that we live in a world of poison food lol. I'm 27, I eat 3 meals a day, and have gotten food poisoning twice in my life (both times from fast food chains that are HEAVILY regulated by the food safety boards). US food is very safe. You'll credit the regulations, I'll credit the fact that poisoning your customers is bad for business and thus food providers have severe interest in maintain standards themselves. It's fine if we disagree here, but please don't pretend that food companies would cut every possible corner to save money. ONE mere mention of poison chicken almost put Tyson out of business.

3) If a tobacco company lies about what's in its product, or about known effects of its product, that is fraud and should be handled by courts. You don't need a government "crackdown"... you just need to enforce anti-fraud laws.

4) In a free market, AIG would've been out of business if they fucked up so badly. In our corporatist/socialist centrally-planned economy, however, they were bailed out and they get to remain in operation. NOT FREE MARKET

5) Regarding lead paint in Chinese toys... DONT BUY STUFF FROM CHINA IF YOU'RE SCARED OF IT. If people would just take responsibility for themselves instead of trusting mommy-government to protect them, they'd make market decisions which would quickly make it unprofitable for the Chinese companies to continue using lead. Just like with poison food - it's bad for business to hurt your customers, and even the possibility of harm can mean bankruptcy.

Only a few regulations are needed for a healthy world. Don't steal. Don't damage property (this includes pollution externalities, etc). Don't defraud.


LastBattle
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July 02, 2011, 06:13:25 PM
 #103

You've got the rhetoric down well: list only the negatives of government, list only the positives of private business.

You'll overlook private market greed giving birth to companies like Enron, who systematically decreased electricity supply to sections of California to fake a lack of supply, thus allowing them to jack electricity prices and tack on obscene service charges to fix problems that never existed.  The free market did that.

You'll forget about all the factory farms that cut corners on cleanliness and pest control, action that has led to numerous e.coli and salmonela outbreaks in the last few years.  That's the free market's standard of food safety.

Let's just ignore tobacco companies that knew the negative affects of their products as early as the 1930's, but continued to market them as perfectly safe until government regulation cracked down on them over thirty years later.

So easily you forget AIG that sidestepped and mislead regulators about the finanical instruments they had created, of course, out of greed, and brought world-wide financial system collapse - because they only cared about themselves and making a quick buck.

And oh, all the Chinese companies using lead paint in toys. Forget about them, they don't matter. That's the free market saving a buck at the expense of the populace. That didn't stop until government regulators put an end to it.



You criticize market advocates for "listing only the negatives of government, and listing only the positives of private business." And then the rest of your post is you committing the same offense in reverse.

Let's examine your examples:

1) Enron - First of all, the energy industry is one of the most regulated of all. Please don't claim it's a "free market." It's not even close. Second, the moment it was discovered that Enron was cooking the books and scamming people, it's share price collapsed to zero and it went out of business. Now it's gone, and it's leaders are behind bars for fraud (punishing fraud is one legitimate role of government). This is an example of GOOD interaction between gov and business. The market collapsed the company when the fraud was discovered. The gov put away the criminals. Well done all.

2)  Factory farms and clean food - You watch too much television news. Food in the United States is extremely safe, let's not pretend that we live in a world of poison food lol. I'm 27, I eat 3 meals a day, and have gotten food poisoning twice in my life (both times from fast food chains that are HEAVILY regulated by the food safety boards). US food is very safe. You'll credit the regulations, I'll credit the fact that poisoning your customers is bad for business and thus food providers have severe interest in maintain standards themselves. It's fine if we disagree here, but please don't pretend that food companies would cut every possible corner to save money. ONE mere mention of poison chicken almost put Tyson out of business.

3) If a tobacco company lies about what's in its product, or about known effects of its product, that is fraud and should be handled by courts. You don't need a government "crackdown"... you just need to enforce anti-fraud laws.

4) In a free market, AIG would've been out of business if they fucked up so badly. In our corporatist/socialist centrally-planned economy, however, they were bailed out and they get to remain in operation. NOT FREE MARKET

5) Regarding lead paint in Chinese toys... DONT BUY STUFF FROM CHINA IF YOU'RE SCARED OF IT. If people would just take responsibility for themselves instead of trusting mommy-government to protect them, they'd make market decisions which would quickly make it unprofitable for the Chinese companies to continue using lead. Just like with poison food - it's bad for business to hurt your customers, and even the possibility of harm can mean bankruptcy.

Only a few regulations are needed for a healthy world. Don't steal. Don't damage property (this includes pollution externalities, etc). Don't defraud.




I think you put it even better then I did. Good job. He's probably going to handwave it away, though.

You're standing on a flagstone running with blood, alone and so very lonely because you can't choose but you had to

I take tips to: 14sF7NNGJzXvoBcfbLR6N4Exy8umCAqdBd
AyeYo
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July 02, 2011, 06:18:46 PM
 #104

Quote
You've got the rhetoric down well: list only the negatives of government, list only the positives of private business.

Hold on. Let me demonstrate. Notable points will be in ALL CAPS.
Quote
You'll overlook private market greed giving birth to companies like Enron, who systematically decreased electricity supply to sections of California to fake a lack of supply, thus allowing them to jack electricity prices and tack on obscene service charges to fix problems that never existed.  The free market did that.

Paid for by the CALIFORNIAN GOVERNMENT, Enron was NOT CAUGHT BY GOVERNMENT REGULATORS WHO REGULARLY TAKE MONEY WITH THE EXPRESS PURPOSE OF STOPPING THIS, but by a PRIVATE SECTOR TRADER WHO SHORT SOLD THEM AND RESULTED IN THEIR EXPOSURE. If you seriously think California has a free energy industry because it pays specific companies to do its dirty work, then you are high.

Quote
You'll forget about all the factory farms that cut corners on cleanliness and pest control, action that has led to numerous e.coli and salmonela outbreaks in the last few years.  That's the free market's standard of food safety.

How is the FDA working out for you? Doesn't sound like a free market to me.
Quote
Let's just ignore tobacco companies that knew the negative affects of their products as early as the 1930's, but continued to market them as perfectly safe until government regulation cracked down on them over thirty years later.

We already know tobacco is dangerous. If people want to smoke, then that is no one else's damn business. The government is not a mother.
Quote
So easily you forget AIG that sidestepped and mislead regulators about the finanical instruments they had created, of course, out of greed, and brought world-wide financial system collapse - because they only cared about themselves and making a quick buck.

You are right: AIG is crooked! But wait! AIG was receiving SUPPORT FROM GOVERNMENT AGENCIES IN THE FORM OF INCENTIVES AS WELL AS EASY CREDIT FROM THE AMERICAN CENTRAL BANK, THE FEDERAL RESERVE. Then, after failing (as they rightly should have and would have in a free market), they RECEIVED A TAXPAYER PROVIDED BAILOUT THAT REMOVED MORAL HAZARD.

Quote
And oh, all the Chinese companies using lead paint in toys. Forget about them, they don't matter. That's the free market saving a buck at the expense of the populace. That didn't stop until government regulators put an end to it.

We all know Communist China has a free market, don't we? Oh wait, they have a corporatist system which protects Chinese companies from prosecution. Whoops.

It looks to me like you are exposing the flaws of corporatism and the failure of government regulation, not any particular problems with the free market.



Thank you for proving my point even further.  The government is ALWAYS at fault.  Private business is ALWAYS blameless.  It's too predictable.  It's like seven degrees to Kevin Bacon, but instead seven degrees to government.  If you can relate anything to government in seven steps or less, it MUST be the government's fault. hahah


Once again...

- Overlooking the fact PRIVATE BUSINEES GREED caused Enron, NOTHING government related.  Who they contracted for is irrelevant.

- AIG, PRIVATE BUSINESS GREED at it's finest... but wait, we can play seven steps to government and therefore offload ALL blame on the evil government!

- Chinese companies cutting corners to increase profits, private market greed again... but wait... seven steps to government and, just like magic, it's all the government's fault!!!

Enjoying the dose of reality or getting a laugh out of my posts? Feel free to toss me a penny or two, everyone else seems to be doing it! 1Kn8NqvbCC83zpvBsKMtu4sjso5PjrQEu1
LastBattle
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July 02, 2011, 06:25:06 PM
 #105

Quote
You've got the rhetoric down well: list only the negatives of government, list only the positives of private business.

Hold on. Let me demonstrate. Notable points will be in ALL CAPS.
Quote
You'll overlook private market greed giving birth to companies like Enron, who systematically decreased electricity supply to sections of California to fake a lack of supply, thus allowing them to jack electricity prices and tack on obscene service charges to fix problems that never existed.  The free market did that.

Paid for by the CALIFORNIAN GOVERNMENT, Enron was NOT CAUGHT BY GOVERNMENT REGULATORS WHO REGULARLY TAKE MONEY WITH THE EXPRESS PURPOSE OF STOPPING THIS, but by a PRIVATE SECTOR TRADER WHO SHORT SOLD THEM AND RESULTED IN THEIR EXPOSURE. If you seriously think California has a free energy industry because it pays specific companies to do its dirty work, then you are high.

Quote
You'll forget about all the factory farms that cut corners on cleanliness and pest control, action that has led to numerous e.coli and salmonela outbreaks in the last few years.  That's the free market's standard of food safety.

How is the FDA working out for you? Doesn't sound like a free market to me.
Quote
Let's just ignore tobacco companies that knew the negative affects of their products as early as the 1930's, but continued to market them as perfectly safe until government regulation cracked down on them over thirty years later.

We already know tobacco is dangerous. If people want to smoke, then that is no one else's damn business. The government is not a mother.
Quote
So easily you forget AIG that sidestepped and mislead regulators about the finanical instruments they had created, of course, out of greed, and brought world-wide financial system collapse - because they only cared about themselves and making a quick buck.

You are right: AIG is crooked! But wait! AIG was receiving SUPPORT FROM GOVERNMENT AGENCIES IN THE FORM OF INCENTIVES AS WELL AS EASY CREDIT FROM THE AMERICAN CENTRAL BANK, THE FEDERAL RESERVE. Then, after failing (as they rightly should have and would have in a free market), they RECEIVED A TAXPAYER PROVIDED BAILOUT THAT REMOVED MORAL HAZARD.

Quote
And oh, all the Chinese companies using lead paint in toys. Forget about them, they don't matter. That's the free market saving a buck at the expense of the populace. That didn't stop until government regulators put an end to it.

We all know Communist China has a free market, don't we? Oh wait, they have a corporatist system which protects Chinese companies from prosecution. Whoops.

It looks to me like you are exposing the flaws of corporatism and the failure of government regulation, not any particular problems with the free market.



Thank you for proving my point even further.  The government is ALWAYS at fault.  Private business is ALWAYS blameless.

He's probably going to handwave it away, though.


Quote
He's probably going to handwave it away, though.

He's probably going to handwave it away, though.

That's one for one. I guess I am clairvoyant.

You're standing on a flagstone running with blood, alone and so very lonely because you can't choose but you had to

I take tips to: 14sF7NNGJzXvoBcfbLR6N4Exy8umCAqdBd
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