PayPal Predicts The End of the Wallet By 2015

[evoorhees]

I'm confused. Why does everyone hate Paypal?  Yes they charge fees. Yes chargebacks are annoying. Yes accounts can be frozen. Those negatives, to me, seem vastly overshadowed by Paypal's usefulness in online transactions. Besides, nobody is forced to use Paypal... how can they be evil? Save terms like "evil" for coercive organizations like the US Department of Education, or the IRS.

I still think Bitcoin should put Paypal out of business, because it's more efficient, but that's just a matter of competition and free markets. But why the "evil" moniker??

[Serge]

I'm confused. Why does everyone hate Paypal?  Yes they charge fees. Yes chargebacks are annoying. Yes accounts can be frozen. Those negatives, to me, seem vastly overshadowed by Paypal's usefulness in online transactions. Besides, nobody is forced to use Paypal... how can they be evil? Save terms like "evil" for coercive organizations like the US Department of Education, or the IRS.

I still think Bitcoin should put Paypal out of business, because it's more efficient, but that's just a matter of competition and free markets. But why the "evil" moniker??

People don't read and follow ToS and then get mad for getting accounts banned, nothing new.

[Jaime Frontero]

I'm confused. Why does everyone hate Paypal?  Yes they charge fees. Yes chargebacks are annoying. Yes accounts can be frozen. Those negatives, to me, seem vastly overshadowed by Paypal's usefulness in online transactions. Besides, nobody is forced to use Paypal... how can they be evil? Save terms like "evil" for coercive organizations like the US Department of Education, or the IRS.

I still think Bitcoin should put Paypal out of business, because it's more efficient, but that's just a matter of competition and free markets. But why the "evil" moniker??

i guess it depends on whether you're a buyer or a seller.  paypal is great for buyers.  oddly enough, although paypal (and ebay) generate their income from sellers, they will always take the side of the buyer against sellers.  no matter what.  sellers can't even leave feedback for buyers these days.

when i finally couldn't take it any more, i had over 1,700 positive ratings on ebay with two negs - representing over 5,000 sales.  rare books.  i couldn't reliably earn a living because of dishonest buyers, chargebacks, and un-returned merchandise in those cases.  YMMV.

have you done much selling using paypal?

[Serge]

I'm confused. Why does everyone hate Paypal?  Yes they charge fees. Yes chargebacks are annoying. Yes accounts can be frozen. Those negatives, to me, seem vastly overshadowed by Paypal's usefulness in online transactions. Besides, nobody is forced to use Paypal... how can they be evil? Save terms like "evil" for coercive organizations like the US Department of Education, or the IRS.

I still think Bitcoin should put Paypal out of business, because it's more efficient, but that's just a matter of competition and free markets. But why the "evil" moniker??

i guess it depends on whether you're a buyer or a seller.  paypal is great for buyers.  oddly enough, although paypal (and ebay) generate their income from sellers, they will always take the side of the buyer against sellers.  no matter what.  sellers can't even leave feedback for buyers these days.

when i finally couldn't take it any more, i had over 1,700 positive ratings on ebay with two negs - representing over 5,000 sales.  rare books.  i couldn't reliably earn a living because of dishonest buyers, chargebacks, and un-returned merchandise in those cases.  YMMV.

have you done much selling using paypal?

Paypal operates strictly under Money Service Business regulations and license, that may be the reason they have and enforce buyer protection policy.
How can they protect buyer and seller in virtual goods transactions? Got any ideas?  blockchainexplorer is out of question for now.

[SlaveInDebt]

People don't read and follow ToS and then get mad for getting accounts banned, nothing new.

Doesn't matter when they don't up hold there own terms of service. At the end of it all they do what they want at their own discretion because they know in situations concerning smaller amount's no one is going to pay lawyer fee's greater than what's been stolen.

[Serge]

People don't read and follow ToS and then get mad for getting accounts banned, nothing new.

Doesn't matter when they don't up hold there own terms of service. At the end of it all they do what they want at their own discretion because they know in situations concerning smaller amount's no one is going to pay lawyer fee's greater than what's been stolen.

Please show me one example where user followed their ToS and was screwed by PP stepping out of their own terms?   if you have bank account hooked up you also agree if there is any problem and you account lacks funds, they will be withdrawn from bank account to cover the dispute.  Most people it seems can't read and comprehend to what they agree (ToS & UA) when using such service. It easier to blame someone else for own mistakes and shortcomings.

[Jaime Frontero]

I'm confused. Why does everyone hate Paypal?  Yes they charge fees. Yes chargebacks are annoying. Yes accounts can be frozen. Those negatives, to me, seem vastly overshadowed by Paypal's usefulness in online transactions. Besides, nobody is forced to use Paypal... how can they be evil? Save terms like "evil" for coercive organizations like the US Department of Education, or the IRS.

I still think Bitcoin should put Paypal out of business, because it's more efficient, but that's just a matter of competition and free markets. But why the "evil" moniker??

i guess it depends on whether you're a buyer or a seller.  paypal is great for buyers.  oddly enough, although paypal (and ebay) generate their income from sellers, they will always take the side of the buyer against sellers.  no matter what.  sellers can't even leave feedback for buyers these days.

when i finally couldn't take it any more, i had over 1,700 positive ratings on ebay with two negs - representing over 5,000 sales.  rare books.  i couldn't reliably earn a living because of dishonest buyers, chargebacks, and un-returned merchandise in those cases.  YMMV.

have you done much selling using paypal?

Paypal operates strictly under Money Service Business regulations and license, that may be the reason they have and enforce buyer protection policy.
How can they protect buyer and seller in virtual goods transactions? Got any ideas?  blockchainexplorer is out of question for now.

well, there's always escrow services.  they're fairly expensive though.  between the fees ebay and paypal charge these days, they're still cheaper than a bricks and mortar store - but not by that much, if you own the bricks.  escrow puts it close enough that the convenience of on-line selling is diminished, when compared to the security of face-to-face transactions.

and yes - the truth is that a zero-chargeback entity like Bitcoin tilts the table pretty far toward the sellers side.

i honestly don't know how a balance in on-line sales between buyers and sellers can be reached without spending money.

i'll note that i've never refused to refund on a returned book - if i got back the same book in the same condition.  but that's just me.  i'm sure there's plenty of horror stories out there by buyers, too.  but i'll tell you:  back when ebay was huge for books - like mid-nineties to 2003 or so - there weren't too many problems.  ebay kept the sock-puppets down, and feedback on buyers was as real as feedback on sellers.  you could also buy stuff with other forms of payment than just paypal.  there were a lot of booksellers who dealt in personal checks only - which meant they had your address if you were a crooked buyer.

[Serge]

And BTW there are irreversible transaction methods in Paypal

For instance when I charge for a service, my client can't reverse transaction, he can open a dispute then I must prove I delivered the service for which I collected.
There is mass-pay option which can't be reversed easily and beauty of it it doesn't lay burden of 3% fee on receiver, it costs $1 to the sender.

A lot of ignorance and hidden agendas is coming from those who simply scream paypal sucks. and also disability to comprehend to what they agree when signing up to their service.
I'm sure there are horror stories and I don't dismiss some of them may be true, but there are 3 sides of story in any such case.

[Jaime Frontero]

And BTW there are irreversible transaction methods in Paypal

For instance when I charge for a service, my client can't reverse transaction, he can open a dispute then I must prove I delivered the service for which I collected.
There is mass-pay option which can't be reversed easily and beauty of it it doesn't lay burden of 3% fee on receiver, it costs $1 to the sender.

A lot of ignorance and hidden agendas is coming from those who simply scream paypal sucks. and also disability to comprehend to what they agree when signing up to their service.
I'm sure there are horror stories and I don't dismiss some of them may be true, but there are 3 sides of story in any such case.

interesting.  there's new stuff all the time.

i've never sold services, so i was unaware of that.

how recent is the mass-pay option?  although i guess that wouldn't do me much good either - the point of rare books (or collectibles of most kinds) is that there really aren't mass quantities of them readily available.

but really - i have no hidden agenda where paypal or ebay are concerned.  they have simply proven, over and over again, to be evil - extremely counter-productive with a strong anti-seller bias, if you prefer - for me and people like me.  i imagine they're quite useful for folks who sell occasionally, and whose goods are lower priced.  but i'm just not going to be using their services to sell thousand dollar books any more - one can only afford to lose so many of those to thieves taking advantage of a rigged game.

[YoYa]

To back his assertion, PayPal is launching a new campaign that will challenge five Bay area residents to only use digital currency to pay for all of their purchases — no cash allowed. It’s an intriguing campaign that could become a good marketing tool for the company

BITCOIN CAMPAIGN!!!

Seriously.....we could ride on the back of Paypals marketing here, get some value for their refusal to converse with bitcoin. I've seen for a fact that a lot of google searchs for bitcoin have been trending in the Bay area, and what more appealing to many of the areas more laid back technologists then to run with the counter-currency?

The Bitcoin challenge.....enough people to engage in trading to allow anyone with bitcoins to do business in the Bay area!

[phillipsjk]

I'm confused. Why does everyone hate Paypal?  Yes they charge fees. Yes chargebacks are annoying. Yes accounts can be frozen. Those negatives, to me, seem vastly overshadowed by Paypal's usefulness in online transactions. Besides, nobody is forced to use Paypal... how can they be evil? Save terms like "evil" for coercive organizations like the US Department of Education, or the IRS.

I still think Bitcoin should put Paypal out of business, because it's more efficient, but that's just a matter of competition and free markets. But why the "evil" moniker??

People don't read and follow ToS and then get mad for getting accounts banned, nothing new.

I read the TOS and decided I am never going to use paypal until those terms are changed. It is not my account being frozen I am concerned about. If I want to pay for a service or make a donation to a small organization I support, their account can be frozen with no recourse for either party. The TOS also claim you can't get disputes resolved through the court system. You are supposed to use a Paypal-appointed arbitrator.

IMO, the frequency of arbitrarily frozen accounts makes Paypal risky to use as a Payment processor.

[Serge]

And BTW there are irreversible transaction methods in Paypal

For instance when I charge for a service, my client can't reverse transaction, he can open a dispute then I must prove I delivered the service for which I collected.
There is mass-pay option which can't be reversed easily and beauty of it it doesn't lay burden of 3% fee on receiver, it costs $1 to the sender.

A lot of ignorance and hidden agendas is coming from those who simply scream paypal sucks. and also disability to comprehend to what they agree when signing up to their service.
I'm sure there are horror stories and I don't dismiss some of them may be true, but there are 3 sides of story in any such case.

interesting.  there's new stuff all the time.

i've never sold services, so i was unaware of that.

how recent is the mass-pay option?  although i guess that wouldn't do me much good either - the point of rare books (or collectibles of most kinds) is that there really aren't mass quantities of them readily available.

but really - i have no hidden agenda where paypal or ebay are concerned.  they have simply proven, over and over again, to be evil - extremely counter-productive with a strong anti-seller bias, if you prefer - for me and people like me.  i imagine they're quite useful for folks who sell occasionally, and whose goods are lower priced.  but i'm just not going to be using their services to sell thousand dollar books any more - one can only afford to lose so many of those to thieves taking advantage of a rigged game.

mass-pay has been out for a while, i'm familiar with it for a year or so.  pay for service has been an option for a long time.
Mass pay's main purpose is to cater for affiliate based programs or multiple vendor payments and it's only available to business accounts, obviously not for tangible goods.

when dealing with credit cards seller is also at disadvantage with chargebacks which involve added costs and almost impossible to dispute from merchant side without buyers signature accompanying transaction.

I understand your side though, selling used books on line is tricky and dealing with returns as you say may not render of any worth to it.

For me personally my issue with all existing payment methods/platforms are fees and delays in time to move funds. My business is international, different clients have different paying methods and many times differ from receiving methods of my vendors. collecting payments on one platform, then moving to a bank then sending by other means, all these reasonable 3% and such fees accumulate pretty quickly and take very long time to get to my vendors who also end up paying additional fees on their end for collecting their funds. I don't deal with huge amounts so these fees eat into my bottom line tremendously. and which such i'm in agreement with you - extremely counter-productive and expensive.

[SlaveInDebt]

Please show me one example where user followed their ToS and was screwed by PP stepping out of their own terms?   if you have bank account hooked up you also agree if there is any problem and you account lacks funds, they will be withdrawn from bank account to cover the dispute.  Most people it seems can't read and comprehend to what they agree (ToS & UA) when using such service. It easier to blame someone else for own mistakes and shortcomings.

Item CPU, purchase price $150, USPS shipping w/delivery confirmation and tracking.
Proof of shipping and weight of package of 2.6oz by USPS receipt.
Police report filed indicating empty package weight of 1.5oz.

Buyer claims package was empty and item not received.
Paypal has buyer send back empty package to seller.
Paypal rules on buyers behalf.

Please, inform me where the seller protection guide lines were not meet.

11.1 PayPal Seller Protection. PayPal Seller protection is protection we provide Sellers from Claims, Chargebacks, or Reversals that are based on:

Unauthorized Transaction or
Item Not Received Check
PayPal Seller protection is available for eligible payments from buyers in any country.

Buyer claims item was not recieved.

11.2 Scope of Protection.

PayPal will protect you for the full amount of the eligible payment and waive the Chargeback Fee, if applicable. There is no limit on the number of payments for which you can receive coverage.

11.3 Eligibility Requirements.

To be eligible for PayPal Seller protection, you must meet all of the basic requirements listed below under (a) Basic Requirements. To be covered for Item Not Received protection, you must meet both the Basic Requirements and the Item Not Received Additional Requirements listed below under (b). To be covered for Unauthorized Transaction protection, you must meet both the Basic Requirements and the Unauthorized Transactions Additional Requirements listed below under (c).

Basic Requirements:
You must ship the item to the shipping address on the Transaction Details Page. Check
You must respond to PayPal's requests for documentation and other information in a timely manner. Check
The item must be a physical, tangible good that can be shipped. Check
Your primary residence, as listed in your Account, must be in the United States. Check
Item Not Received Additional Requirements:
The payment must be marked "eligible" or "partially eligible" for PayPal Seller protection on the Transaction Details Page. Check

You must have a Proof of Delivery as described below in Section 11.4.

You must ship the item within 7 Days of receipt of payment. Or, if the payment is for pre-ordered or made-to-order goods, shipment is required within the timeframe specified in your item listing. Check

Unauthorized Transactions Additional Requirements:

The payment must be marked "eligible" for PayPal Seller protection on the Transaction Details Page.
You must have a Proof of Shipment or a Proof of Delivery.
11.4 Proof of Shipment, Proof of Delivery, and Signature Confirmation Requirements.

"Proof of Shipment" is online or physical documentation from a shipping company that includes all of the following:

The date the item is shipped. Check
The recipient's address, showing at least the city/state or zip code (or international equivalent). Check
"Proof of Delivery" is online documentation from a shipping company that includes all of the following:

The date the item is delivered. Check
The recipient's address, showing at least the city/state or zip code (or international equivalent). Check
Signature Confirmation as described below for payments of $250 USD or more of the following foreign currency equivalents:Double Check

[wolftaur]

While I don't really want to be on the "They're a big evil company just because they handle money" side, I have to admit PayPal does indeed ignore their own terms of service and policies if they think it serves them. An ex-roommate of mine sold something (while I still lived there) and took payment through PayPal. I was the one who packed and shipped the item. We had proof from the carrier. The receiver claimed he never got anything, so my roommate provided proof to PayPal from UPS. His account was then suspended for "fraud", on the grounds he "never shipped anything." They froze all the money he had in his PayPal account. As of nine months later when I moved out, my roommate still hadn't gotten a penny of it back.

[Serge]

Please show me one example where user followed their ToS and was screwed by PP stepping out of their own terms?   if you have bank account hooked up you also agree if there is any problem and you account lacks funds, they will be withdrawn from bank account to cover the dispute.  Most people it seems can't read and comprehend to what they agree (ToS & UA) when using such service. It easier to blame someone else for own mistakes and shortcomings.

Item CPU, purchase price $150, USPS shipping w/delivery confirmation and tracking.
Proof of shipping and weight of package of 2.6oz by USPS receipt.
Police report filed indicating empty package weight of 1.5oz.

Buyer claims package was empty and item not received.
Paypal has buyer send back empty package to seller.
Paypal rules on buyers behalf.

Please, inform me where the seller protection guide lines were not meet.

11.1 PayPal Seller Protection. PayPal Seller protection is protection we provide Sellers from Claims, Chargebacks, or Reversals that are based on:

Unauthorized Transaction or
Item Not Received Check
PayPal Seller protection is available for eligible payments from buyers in any country.

Buyer claims item was not recieved.

11.2 Scope of Protection.

PayPal will protect you for the full amount of the eligible payment and waive the Chargeback Fee, if applicable. There is no limit on the number of payments for which you can receive coverage.

11.3 Eligibility Requirements.

To be eligible for PayPal Seller protection, you must meet all of the basic requirements listed below under (a) Basic Requirements. To be covered for Item Not Received protection, you must meet both the Basic Requirements and the Item Not Received Additional Requirements listed below under (b). To be covered for Unauthorized Transaction protection, you must meet both the Basic Requirements and the Unauthorized Transactions Additional Requirements listed below under (c).

Basic Requirements:
You must ship the item to the shipping address on the Transaction Details Page. Check
You must respond to PayPal's requests for documentation and other information in a timely manner. Check
The item must be a physical, tangible good that can be shipped. Check
Your primary residence, as listed in your Account, must be in the United States. Check
Item Not Received Additional Requirements:
The payment must be marked "eligible" or "partially eligible" for PayPal Seller protection on the Transaction Details Page. Check

You must have a Proof of Delivery as described below in Section 11.4.

You must ship the item within 7 Days of receipt of payment. Or, if the payment is for pre-ordered or made-to-order goods, shipment is required within the timeframe specified in your item listing. Check

Unauthorized Transactions Additional Requirements:

The payment must be marked "eligible" for PayPal Seller protection on the Transaction Details Page.
You must have a Proof of Shipment or a Proof of Delivery.
11.4 Proof of Shipment, Proof of Delivery, and Signature Confirmation Requirements.

"Proof of Shipment" is online or physical documentation from a shipping company that includes all of the following:

The date the item is shipped. Check
The recipient's address, showing at least the city/state or zip code (or international equivalent). Check
"Proof of Delivery" is online documentation from a shipping company that includes all of the following:

The date the item is delivered. Check
The recipient's address, showing at least the city/state or zip code (or international equivalent). Check
Signature Confirmation as described below for payments of $250 USD or more of the following foreign currency equivalents:Double Check

This story doesn't give a complete picture to be able to conclude any validity to it. But I have no reason not to believe your side and I'm sorry if this what have happened with you. Such situations do suck. 

Let me ask you this: How many good successful transactions have you had though Paypal and how many were similar to this one? What was the reason paypal shut you down?

Lets say you had a merchant account and someone claimed chargeback, this might have not been any different. It's just cost of business, you write off your loses (OR sue) and continue doing business, if service isn't good you find new methods and move on.
Now, let say someone purchased something with bitcoins and seller didn't even ship anything. and the buyer came on here telling bitcoins suck someone run away with my coins how is it any different?

I'm not saying you have no reasons to be mad at paypal, but it can and does happen anywhere. I don't know how paypal acts on fees on reverses, for refunds they don't make any money so it is not in their best interest that's for sure.

[SlaveInDebt]

This story doesn't give a complete picture to be able to conclude any validity to it. But I have no reason not to believe your side and I'm sorry if this what have happened with you. Such situations do suck. 

It is hard and timely to represent all the information. Paypal's reasoning behind ruling on the buyer behalf was that he filed the claim as "Significantly not as described" reason "Missing item's"

11.5 Items/transactions not eligible for PayPal Seller protection. The following are examples of items/transactions not eligible for PayPal Seller protection.

Claims or Chargebacks for Significantly Not as Described.
Items that you deliver in person, including at a retail point of sale.
Intangible items, including Digital Goods, and services.
PayPal Direct Payments.
Virtual Terminal Payments.
PayPal Business Payments.
Items that are not shipped to the recipient address. If you originally ship the item to the recipient address but the item is later redirected to a different address, you will not be eligible for PayPal Seller protection. We therefore recommend not using a shipping service that is arranged by the buyer, so that you will be able to provide valid proof of shipping and delivery.

"Significantly not as described - Missing items" versus "Item Not Received"

Let me ask you this: How many good successful transactions have you had though Paypal and how many were similar to this one? What was the reason paypal shut you down?

Depends on what you define successful. I could just as easily buy and sell using check, money order, etc. There are other way's to conduct transactions but I used Paypal for the seller/buyer protection. Considering that was my first dispute and they did not provide the service they claimed to provide even though I've paid fee's along with meet all the requirements for the protection I would say no successful transactions where it matters. What makes matters worse is USPS refuses to give reimbursement through extra insurance I paid, claiming because the buyer opened and there by accepted the package they can not be held liable. Due to the buyer having the ability to defraud them. Paypal has not shut me down I refuse to pay them the outstanding balance, closed my accounts tied to them and will hold my ground never using them again.

Lets say you had a merchant account and someone claimed chargeback, this might have not been any different. It's just cost of business, you write off your loses (OR sue) and continue doing business, if service isn't good you find new methods and move on.
Now, let say someone purchased something with bitcoins and seller didn't even ship anything. and the buyer came on here telling bitcoins suck someone run away with my coins how is it any different?

I'm not saying you have no reasons to be mad at paypal, but it can and does happen anywhere. I don't know how paypal acts on fees on reverses, for refunds they don't make any money so it is not in their best interest that's for sure.

If Bitcoin charged me a fee with an agreement to provide a level of service it wouldn't be much different. Paypal and Bitcoin are different however in that regard so you can't compare the two. Paypal and USPS have both been paid for services in my situation none of which they have provided. Some would go as far as to say that's theft and I would have to agree.

[SmokeAndMirrors]

I'll wait 3-5 business days for my wages to be transferred into my online wallet. No problem, Paypal.

[kloinko1n]

...physical wallets will be thing of the past in the future.

Not a good thing! The anonimity provided by physical cash is better than the anonymity BTCs provide.

[d.james]

WHAT??!!

I just bought a $99 Gucci wallet,
Am I screwed?