Why are people cheering that ASICMINER will bring 800-1000TH online this year?

[Paladin69]

Time for someone to step up and defend ASICMINER here, I guess it will be me.

First of all, friedcat has been an outstandingly honest and upright member of this community for a long time, and the interests of ASICMINER are clearly aligned with most of this community. Greater network hash rate contributes to the security of Bitcoin and is good for all users - possibly with the exception of competing miners and hardware manufacturers. The transparency of their operation, such as signing each block they find, clearly demonstrates their good intentions.

Secondly, ASICMINER's pricing policy has been pertinent: ASICMINER has an obligation to maximize value for shareholders, and selling hardware below what the market is willing to pay does not achieve this. If they set a lower price point, they would only achieve being sold out quicker and the lucky few who managed to buy would simply sell their hardware on eBay at twice the price. That would hardly be a responsible way to run a company. ASICMINER has no obligation to sell hardware at charity prices so miners can net a big profit quickly - in that case they would be better off mining with their own hardware.

Thirdly, developing your own mining hardware and subsequently mining with it is not "evil". ASICMINER is a clever bunch, but they have used no unfair business tactics to achieve their current advantage and there is no reason any other sufficiently talented group of people could not compete on equal terms.

Fourthly, ASICMINER is clearly aware of the dangers of having too large share of the network hashing power and sell hardware in great enough quantities to avoid the possibility [although not at charity prices].

I have more points too, but that should be a start.

Disclaimer: I have a horse in this race, and I have a man-crush on friedcat and ASICMINER.

The people that started the Federal Reserve also sounded cute and innocent in the beginning too.

This is a fuckin' ponzi that will benefit them most in the end.

possibly with the exception of competing miners and hardware manufacturers.

This is the worst part that you mentioned.  Don't shrug it off like no big deal.

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[bitfair]

How, we have no influence on him now. We let him issue 400,000 shares and value his company at $140m. We gave him $57m of capital, we bought $m's of hardware from him at a 95% markup, we [BFL] let him take such a large part of the network that no one can stop him.

We could raise $1b tomorrow and we wouldn't be able to catch him for 2 years, by which point the damage is done.

We lost the game, the greedy man ruined it for us all.

Actually, he issued 200,000 shares, which raised a little above $100K at the time (approximately one year ago). But the company has grown since then.

I agree that BFL's delays have benefited ASICMINER, but that can hardly be blamed on ASICMINER.

[Paladin69]

How, we have no influence on him now. We let him issue 400,000 shares and value his company at $140m. We gave him $57m of capital, we bought $m's of hardware from him at a 95% markup, we [BFL] let him take such a large part of the network that no one can stop him.

We could raise $1b tomorrow and we wouldn't be able to catch him for 2 years, by which point the damage is done.

We lost the game, the greedy man ruined it for us all.

Actually, he issued 200,000 shares, which raised a little above $100K at the time (approximately one year ago). But the company has grown since then.

I agree that BFL's delays have benefited ASICMINER, but that can hardly be blamed on ASICMINER.

ASICMINER is just taking advantage of the stupidity.  I can't blame them for trying.  Ventures like this will turn mining into a scammy TV infomercial if they continue to be supported.

[dogie]

Time for someone to step up and defend ASICMINER here, I guess it will be me.

First of all, friedcat has been an outstandingly honest and upright member of this community for a long time, and the interests of ASICMINER are clearly aligned with most of this community. Greater network hash rate contributes to the security of Bitcoin and is good for all users - possibly with the exception of competing miners and hardware manufacturers. The transparency of their operation, such as signing each block they find, clearly demonstrates their good intentions.

Secondly, ASICMINER's pricing policy has been pertinent: ASICMINER has an obligation to maximize value for shareholders, and selling hardware below what the market is willing to pay does not achieve this. If they set a lower price point, they would only achieve being sold out quicker and the lucky few who managed to buy would simply sell their hardware on eBay at twice the price. That would hardly be a responsible way to run a company. ASICMINER has no obligation to sell hardware at charity prices so miners can net a big profit quickly - in that case they would be better off mining with their own hardware.

Thirdly, developing your own mining hardware and subsequently mining with it is not "evil". ASICMINER is a clever bunch, but they have used no unfair business tactics to achieve their current advantage and there is no reason any other sufficiently talented group of people could not compete on equal terms.

Fourthly, ASICMINER is clearly aware of the dangers of having too large share of the network hashing power and sell hardware in great enough quantities to avoid the possibility [although not at charity prices].

I have more points too, but that should be a start.

Disclaimer: I have a horse in this race, and I have a man-crush on friedcat and ASICMINER.

How does 1 person/company controlling the entire network secure the network? Even at 30-40%, if he wanted to he could cripple everything by forcing short lived forks.

You seem to think he keeps 20% hash rate and sells the rest of the hardware. WRONG. He only ever sold hardware because he had difficulties powering and cooling such extreme amounts. He has sold what... 500 blades? 5TH.

Look at May when he started selling. He had 20TH deployed, struggling for heat and power. Once sorted by the end of May, he has nearly 50TH and 35% of the market. Do you think he will stop there? Of course he won't - his previous estimates were to deploy 60TH by the end of July for that generation.

And now his new generation, arriving in the next 7-14 days.... As he said himself, he's going to put 10-15x that amount down in the next 6 months.

[dan99]

Although I am highly invested in Asicminer Shares, it is a bit disconcerting that they will control so much power under one single entity.  

Dude you should sell and get KNC instead.

Nobody should be supporting these assholes.  It would be a different story if they weren't mining with what they produce, but they are.

We really need a sticky or something explaining how this will kill the small miner.  It still isn't too late to apply the brakes to this if an information campaign is started.

How, we have no influence on him now. We let him issue 400,000 shares and value his company at $140m. We gave him $57m of capital, we bought $m's of hardware from him at a 95% markup, we [BFL] let him take such a large part of the network that no one can stop him.

We could raise $1b tomorrow and we wouldn't be able to catch him for 2 years, by which point the damage is done.

We lost the game, the greedy man ruined it for us all.

The questions is who bought all these Over Price Hardware from him? Especially the USB AsicMiner? Who is help by a group of co-hots namely those who started the group buys and those middle men who go for the Quick Buck. It is the Westerners who bought all of these over price stuffs from him. Who to blame? Avalon may go big time into mining nobody knows. If all the Westerners boycott Chinese Mining Hardware from China that may slow down the growth of AM and those from China.

[dogie]

How, we have no influence on him now. We let him issue 400,000 shares and value his company at $140m. We gave him $57m of capital, we bought $m's of hardware from him at a 95% markup, we [BFL] let him take such a large part of the network that no one can stop him.

We could raise $1b tomorrow and we wouldn't be able to catch him for 2 years, by which point the damage is done.

We lost the game, the greedy man ruined it for us all.

Actually, he issued 200,000 shares, which raised a little above $100K at the time (approximately one year ago). But the company has grown since then.

I agree that BFL's delays have benefited ASICMINER, but that can hardly be blamed on ASICMINER.

Yes, he issued 200k shares to the public, kept 200k shares for himself. He has since sold another 40k shares into the wild which generated him pure cash.

http://www.asicminer.co/about.html

[Paladin69]

How, we have no influence on him now. We let him issue 400,000 shares and value his company at $140m. We gave him $57m of capital, we bought $m's of hardware from him at a 95% markup, we [BFL] let him take such a large part of the network that no one can stop him.

We could raise $1b tomorrow and we wouldn't be able to catch him for 2 years, by which point the damage is done.

We lost the game, the greedy man ruined it for us all.

Actually, he issued 200,000 shares, which raised a little above $100K at the time (approximately one year ago). But the company has grown since then.

I agree that BFL's delays have benefited ASICMINER, but that can hardly be blamed on ASICMINER.

Yes, he issued 200k shares to the public, kept 200k shares for himself. He has since sold another 40k shares into the wild which generated him pure cash.

http://www.asicminer.co/about.html

And the difficulty will keep raising much faster than anticipated because of it since he is constantly reinvesting in more hardware for himself.

This really does suck.  It is turning mining into a stock market with digital paper promises at the benefit of the Chinese.

Now we have somebody who will keep issuing "shares" to infinity.  You just created a new central bank.

[Flashman]

I can't believe people are STILL misreading friedcats comment and getting worked up about it.

He says he projects "The" networks total hash to be 800-1000TH by year end, "The" meaning the whole bitcoin network, not his network, and then goes on to tell of plans to bring AM up to 200TH.



Or, whoops, sorry did I butt in on one of those long cons to make noobs think mining is hopeless so you trolls can buy their gear dirt cheap?

[Wayne_Chang]

Pursuit for benefit is quite normal for a company. Monopolized by several big mining companies will be the trend of BTC mining industry.

[Paladin69]

I can't believe people are STILL misreading friedcats comment and getting worked up about it.

He says he projects "The" networks total hash to be 800-1000TH by year end, "The" meaning the whole bitcoin network, not his network, and then goes on to tell of plans to bring AM up to 200TH.

Or, whoops, sorry did I butt in on one of those long cons to make noobs think mining is hopeless so you trolls can buy their gear dirt cheap?

Well that's a little better but 200TH is still too damn much for one person.

Do you forget why we like Bitcoin in the first place?  It was to escape fiat.  By him reissuing shares to infinity via an ever-growing mining operation he basically created his own central bank.

It's amazing the defenders can't figure this out.  I guess they were never libertarians to begin with and don't care when the money supply increases anyway in their own country.

[eve]

may be someone need to report to the authorities in China about this illegal thing, AM is doing or get someone to shut down or destroyed his mining farm is doable for sure. Does anyone has the IP Address, that can be track.?

I have good contacts in the Central Committee in the CP of China. and also know those mayors in Guangdong province pretty well. Just a phone call would do the Job. Maybe he will run to the US Embassy.

[logicbomb666]

I do have to say, it's refreshing seeing a thread full of this much negativity that is not directed towards BFL.

Disclaimer- I own shares of ASICMiner and fully support them and think they are awesome. I also am not a big fan of BFL.

[dogie]

may be someone need to report to the authorities in China about this illegal thing, AM is doing or get someone to shut down or destroyed his mining farm is doable for sure. Does anyone has the IP Address, that can be track.?

Well that's going a bit far, probably best to just look from space at the giant glowing building

But in all seriousness, he's putting a massive target on his back for people who have alternate investments in deals we have no idea about, risking fortunes we can only dream about. People bothered to sabotage a few 66GH Avalon units, imagine what they'll conjure up for 200TH.

If I were him I'd have kept my hash rate reasonable, my head down low and sold hardware.

[Paladin69]

may be someone need to report to the authorities in China about this illegal thing, AM is doing or get someone to shut down or destroyed his mining farm is doable for sure. Does anyone has the IP Address, that can be track.?

Well I don't like governments so I can't say I'd condone this.  But the free market can naturally slow this activity down if it isn't supported.

[dogie]

They only competition they might have is from BFL.

If BFL starts selling/delivering chips (that are technologically better than anything out there), ASICMiner will have a hard time keeping up.

But they're not. Avalon/ASICMiner gen 1 are similar efficiencies. BFL is 50% more efficient on gen 1, but they cant even deploy a few TH after 12 months. ASICMiner gen 2 is here in a few weeks, BFL has no answer for that for a LONG time.

[bitfair]

Mining was designed to be a competitive business from the start and not a charity. ASICMINER is playing by the same rules as everybody else - and they are very good at it!

Yes, he issued 200k shares to the public, kept 200k shares for himself. He has since sold another 40k shares into the wild which generated him pure cash.

Yes, he and the other founders kept 200k shares as "sweat equity" and that was clearly stated in their contract. What difference does that make? And I don't believe he has sold another 40k shares, but then again, what difference does that make? There has been no dilution - the total number of shares has always been 400k.

The questions is who bought all these Over Price Hardware from him? Especially the USB AsicMiner? Who is help by a group of co-hots namely those who started the group buys and those middle men who go for the Quick Buck. It is the Westerners who bought all of these over price stuffs from him. Who to blame? Avalon may go big time into mining nobody knows. If all the Westerners boycott Chinese Mining Hardware from China that may slow down the growth of AM and those from China.

Are you making it an ethnic argument now? Us vs. Them? What difference does it make that ASICMINER is based in China?

ASICMINER is just taking advantage of the stupidity.  I can't blame them for trying.  Ventures like this will turn mining into a scammy TV infomercial if they continue to be supported.

I assume you are referring to the price of the hardware again. They have no obligation to sell their hardware for less than they think it is worth - which is what the highest bidder is willing to pay. Nobody is obliged to sell you a Ferrari at the price of a Toyota just because your notion of "fair" says so. ASICMINER has an obligation to maximise value for shareholders, and that is what they are doing.

Anyway, if you have any suggestions on how things can be done differently, then please make them - but "just slow down and let others win the race" does not really make sense business-wise.

[Wayne_Chang]

I do have to say, it's refreshing seeing a thread full of this much negativity that is not directed towards BFL.

Disclaimer- I own shares of ASICMiner and fully support them and think they are awesome. I also am not a big fan of BFL.

Agree. 2 guys compete, then others blame on the winner.
Don't you think it's strange?

[Paladin69]

Mining was designed to be a competitive business from the start and not a charity. ASICMINER is playing by the same rules as everybody else - and they are very good at it!

Yes, he issued 200k shares to the public, kept 200k shares for himself. He has since sold another 40k shares into the wild which generated him pure cash.

Yes, he and the other founders kept 200k shares as "sweat equity" and that was clearly stated in their contract. What difference does that make? And I don't believe he has sold another 40k shares, but then again, what difference does that make? There has been no dilution - the total number of shares has always been 400k.

The questions is who bought all these Over Price Hardware from him? Especially the USB AsicMiner? Who is help by a group of co-hots namely those who started the group buys and those middle men who go for the Quick Buck. It is the Westerners who bought all of these over price stuffs from him. Who to blame? Avalon may go big time into mining nobody knows. If all the Westerners boycott Chinese Mining Hardware from China that may slow down the growth of AM and those from China.

Are you making it an ethnic argument now? Us vs. Them? What difference does it make that ASICMINER is based in China?

ASICMINER is just taking advantage of the stupidity.  I can't blame them for trying.  Ventures like this will turn mining into a scammy TV infomercial if they continue to be supported.

I assume you are referring to the price of the hardware again. They have no obligation to sell their hardware for less than they think it is worth - which is what the highest bidder is willing to pay. Nobody is obliged to sell you a Ferrari at the price of a Toyota just because your notion of "fair" says so. ASICMINER has an obligation to maximise value for shareholders, and that is what they are doing.

Anyway, if you have any suggestions on how things can be done differently, then please make them - but "just slow down and let others win the race" does not really make sense business-wise.

Anybody can do what they want but my original point still stands that you yourself pointed out.

...possibly with the exception of competing miners and hardware manufacturers.

Only support companies like KNC, BFL, and Avalon who all claim to only use testnet before shipping to customers.

Again the only reason why I care about this is to disperse the network hashrate democratically.  It is really not a good idea to let one person control so much.  Yes more big companies will come along eventually, but don't let it happen willfully if you can help it.  Those bigger companies down the road will have a harder time if more miners are involved.

Not people buying shares so one guy can mine more.  Christ.  Central bank shit right there.  And people still proudly admit to supporting it.  **face_palm**

People really have no idea what they are helping to grow there.

[dan99]

Poor thing a lot of these AM trolls or Shills really counting on AM. Better sell off your shares.

[firefop]

The way I understand it is that they plan on bringing 800-1000TH online in the event that their market share (of global hash rate) falls significantly.
They planned to keep at least 10-20% of the network and add/remove hash rate as the total hash rate fluctuates. I can't see that they'll just bring online 1000TH and shoot straight to 90%+ of the network, as that might kill trust in Bitcoin (and thus the whole point of Asicminer's existence). If the network shoots up to 1000TH+, then I would expect them to start seriously flipping the power switches on new machines to keep up, but I doubt they'll bring online that much unless they need to.

Well that makes me feel a bit better I guess.  Sorry I'm new around here and I don't know their intentions or the integrity of friedcat.  It currently feels like they are in it for themselves.  But if they are talking about it from the angle of securing the network then I guess that is cool.  What I see right now is all I can go on...and that currently is USB sticks & blades that are WAY overpriced that are being sold to suckers while they have the luxury of mining for themselves what they develop.

Just save a little for the rest of us ASICMINER.  Otherwise we can't continue to keep buying your cheap Chinese stuff...lol  The West and the East needs to work together to destroy the fiat central banking overlords.  China is showing a growth path that will do a bit too much dominating for my liking.  I agree with you.  Bitcoin will fail if they grow the network too large too quickly.

I hope KNC has an upgrade path program when their 2nd generation ASIC's come online...sorta like what BFL did for their FPGA customers.  But if all I am doing is using all my BTC to keep up with each new generation because ASICMINER is pigging it all then it doesn't make much sense to stay in the game.

I can't speak for the veracity if friedcat's claims...

What I can say is this. ASICMINER is the middle of the road for current gen asics. They better be milking the cow beyond just "building more units" because they're going to have to downsize the process to keep up long term. If They don't... then they'll rolled up by the middle of next year at the latest (or whenever knc ships which should imo be around the same time). Even if I'm completely wrong... and they don't understand this... and keep just making more... eventually the side costs will kill them...

They also have the disadvantage of having shareholders... so some of the profit is probably going there. I have doubts about their ability to keep up if a much smaller process comes out...