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Author Topic: Price stability, difficulty changes, fairness. infnite coins is NOT inflation  (Read 5247 times)
Jack of Diamonds
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July 01, 2011, 03:20:06 PM
 #21

I would not actually call it something like that Tongue.  I would call them hashcoins.

You do realize that name will attract a bunch of pot smokers and will be percieved as such in public?

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Stevie1024
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July 01, 2011, 04:57:12 PM
 #22

Bitcoin works. It has a track record. You are [mod edit: No insults allowed] and I don't have time to set you straight, assuming you even wanted to learn. I am just going to keep buying coins now while they are cheap.

The first are unbacked, fiat like bitcoin is now.

Bitcoin is not a fiat currency. Fiat means imposed using force, usually by governments. Bitcoin is a voluntary currency.

Bitcoin is, as hashcoin stated, a 'fiat like' currency. It shares one very important characteristic: no intrinsic value.

Hashcoin, thanks for the pm. If you want to discuss an alternate currency distribution scheme on this forum, be prepared for some insults and/or, more irritating, misquotes. Although it's good to see some moderation going on these days, it's one of the reasons I don't bother too much to do too much discussing here (after trying e.g this http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=15657.msg206521#msg206521).

Another reason is that, although I think I'd know the perfect solution for a natural, logical distribution scheme, I don't have a proper solution for two other problems that I expect to lead to the downfall of Bitcoin.

But, for the distribution, how 'bout (thanks to Ryan for part of this idea):

- Mining blocks is rewarded only with transaction fee's, no coins are generated with it.

- A 'special' transaction exists, where the 'in' does not refer to a previous transaction, but coins are generated by proof-of-work. (With proven 'difficulty' of a certain hash linear to the reward, hash of some previous block should e.g. be included to prevent double spending.)

- Anyone can create and send as many of these transactions as he/she likes.

No (noteworthy) inflation due to increasing moneysupply is to be expected, as one should be crazy to create more money if it's worth less than the cost of production. No (noteworthy, long-term) deflation is to be expected, as coins will be produced when appearently necessary.

There could be temporary deflation if money-demand outpaces production facilities. There could be permanent inflation if money-demand shrinks (same as with the current Bitcoin).

What is your incentive for early adopters of hashcoin?

I too think there's way too much incentive for early adopters now (http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=19303.msg241662#msg241662), and it will keep hindering it's acceptance. In normal life early-adopters are prepared to pay for interacting with new, cool technology (and for being early-adopter).

One more thing.

Build a new currency, call it hashcoins [...]

Have a look at http://www.hashcash.org/  before you call it hashcoin...






I'm out of here!
hugolp
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July 01, 2011, 05:11:10 PM
 #23

Bitcoin is, as hashcoin stated, a 'fiat like' currency. It shares one very important characteristic: no intrinsic value.

All value is subjective. Nothing has intrinsic value. http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=16263.0
jtimon
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July 26, 2011, 06:24:22 PM
 #24

The first are unbacked, fiat like bitcoin is now.

Bitcoin is not a fiat currency. Fiat means imposed using force, usually by governments. Bitcoin is a voluntary currency.

Although most people use the term fiat currency to mean state currencies, I think fiat is the right word to define a non backed currency like bitcoin.
What he means is that it was "created out of nothing". But then he claims "the value of a bitcoin should be its cost of production" which is in contradiction with the first statement.
Although bitcoins are not made out of thin air, neither are paper bills, but the monetary value is never backed. Its users give them value by fiat, by the common agreement that it is a medium of exchange.
This agreement is often forced by one or several states. In the case of bitcoin, some people trust the cryptography behind it and agree to use it as currency. As more people join the agreement, the monetary value increases.
I'm happy to say that unlike gold, bitcoin is fiat.
But it shares most of the properties that make gold a good storage of value.
I just prefer the term "fiat" over "non-backed" money.
I understand that many people want to use the term "fiat" over "national" or "state" currencies.
It's the same with "money" and "currency". You can find very different definitions.

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
jtimon
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July 26, 2011, 07:03:45 PM
 #25

- Anyone can create and send as many of these transactions as he/she likes.

Money must be either scarce or based on the credit of the issuer (LETS, ripple) to work.

No (noteworthy) inflation due to increasing moneysupply is to be expected, as one should be crazy to create more money if it's worth less than the cost of production. No (noteworthy, long-term) deflation is to be expected, as coins will be produced when appearently necessary.

This is like saying that we all should be allowed to counterfeit dollars and there would be no inflation because no one would print them if their price goes below the production costs.
Also, bitcoin miner's calculations are the source of the bitcoin security. What those generating calculations are for? Just wasted resources?

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
dayfall
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July 26, 2011, 07:53:03 PM
 #26

I have had a similar idea, and I think it could be worked into the current bitcoin system rather than making a new hashcoin thing.  And rather than each miner and each block having differing amounts of new coins, the amount would be recalculated with each difficulty change.  This prevents a miner from attempting to maximize coins for just himself.  Also, services could be set up that attempt to calculate the current "value" of bitcoins which miners could subscribe to.

If this system were created for Gold, then right now the gold miner's production would increase by a small amount in order to bring prices back down.

But, all in all, I don't think such a scheme is necessary.
Stevie1024
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July 28, 2011, 07:21:53 AM
 #27

- Anyone can create and send as many of these transactions as he/she likes.

Money must be either scarce or based on the credit of the issuer (LETS, ripple) to work.

Money in these transactions is generated by proof-of-work, which costs scarce resources.

No (noteworthy) inflation due to increasing moneysupply is to be expected, as one should be crazy to create more money if it's worth less than the cost of production. No (noteworthy, long-term) deflation is to be expected, as coins will be produced when appearently necessary.

This is like saying that we all should be allowed to counterfeit dollars and there would be no inflation because no one would print them if their price goes below the production costs.

Interesting idea, applying the suggested 'distribution scheme' to the dollar. Less practical, as the exact amount of 'work' needed can not easily be proven when dollars are printed. But suppose it could work and we'd have a dollar being worth it's production costs.

Obviously the number on such a 'dollar note' is no longer relevant, a 1.000.000 dollar note is just as easy to print as a 1 dollar note. So either you need a huge amount of notes to pay for e.g. a car, or some printing process has to be invented that can be proven to cost way more resources than the current printing process.

Also, bitcoin miner's calculations are the source of the bitcoin security. What those generating calculations are for? Just wasted resources?

Such questions are best asked to the current bitcoin developers.

I'm signing out (http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=26738.0), this is my last post in this thread.

EDIT: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/got-change-million

I'm out of here!
Astro
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July 28, 2011, 07:54:43 AM
 #28

Every bitcoin-like currency that is created from the pure jealousy late-comers have of "early adopters" will fail.
Jaime Frontero
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July 28, 2011, 08:15:22 AM
 #29

Every bitcoin-like currency that is created from the pure jealousy late-comers have of "early adopters" will fail.

+1
jtimon
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July 28, 2011, 08:39:23 AM
 #30

- Anyone can create and send as many of these transactions as he/she likes.

Money must be either scarce or based on the credit of the issuer (LETS, ripple) to work.

Money in these transactions is generated by proof-of-work, which costs scarce resources.

But the money itself is not scarce, it  can be produced at will.

No (noteworthy) inflation due to increasing moneysupply is to be expected, as one should be crazy to create more money if it's worth less than the cost of production. No (noteworthy, long-term) deflation is to be expected, as coins will be produced when appearently necessary.

This is like saying that we all should be allowed to counterfeit dollars and there would be no inflation because no one would print them if their price goes below the production costs.

Interesting idea, applying the suggested 'distribution scheme' to the dollar. Less practical, as the exact amount of 'work' needed can not easily be proven when dollars are printed. But suppose it could work and we'd have a dollar being worth it's production costs.

Obviously the number on such a 'dollar note' is no longer relevant, a 1.000.000 dollar note is just as easy to print as a 1 dollar note. So either you need a huge amount of notes to pay for e.g. a car, or some printing process has to be invented that can be proven to cost way more resources than the current printing process.

I didn't want it to look like an interesting idea, just wanted to show how stupid the idea is.

Also, bitcoin miner's calculations are the source of the bitcoin security. What those generating calculations are for? Just wasted resources?

Such questions are best asked to the current bitcoin developers.

I'm signing out (http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=26738.0), this is my last post in this thread.

EDIT: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/got-change-million

The current bitcoin developers will tell you that the current computing power spend by miners is not a waste of resources because miners provide the security of the network.
Your miners don't provide anything, they just waste resources.

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
hashcoin
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July 28, 2011, 02:39:05 PM
 #31


This is like saying that we all should be allowed to counterfeit dollars and there would be no inflation because no one would print them if their price goes below the production costs.


Is that really crazy?  To be more precise, don't think of paper bill's.  Think of something that actually have cost to produce near their face value, like coins.

What is wrong with that logic?  People will "print money" (i.e., produce coins) as long as people who don't have the knowledge or ability to produce coins themselves are demanding them from those who do.  Also keep in mind the cost-of-production is not the same for everyone.  As more and more coins are produced, their value will decrease.  But once demand price decreases to cost of production, there is no incentive to produce anymore.

So this prevents money from being overvalued, as I'd argue bitcoins are now.  A system that values a coin produced by Satoshi at difficulty 1 as produced by someone now for 1million times the work is NOT AT ALL some kind of "stored fixed value" like gold.
Let me see if I can really make this clear...

Here is a comparison of bitcoin to gold
Imagine the first person to find gold said "OK everyone, 1oz of your gold shall be worth 1 million times less than 1oz my gold".  How could they enforce that, if all gold looks the same?  By building a "Gold Registry", where everyone must register their gold, and then declaring that only registered Gold is valuable.  More precisely, rather than trading gold, it is declared that all business shall be done in units called "PyramidCoins".  Exactly 1000 PyramidCoins will be issued per day, in exchange for whatever Gold people are willing to register that day.  That is, if there is only 1 person willing to give 1 gold bar, they are given all 1000 PyramidCoins for their single bar of gold.  But if instead, 100 people are each willing to give 1 gold bar, the 1000 PyramidCoins will be divided between them and they will be given 10 PyramidCoins each.  If multiple people each give multiple gold bars, the 1000 PyramidCoins are divided in proportion to the number of gold bars they registered.  It is also declared that every 25 years, the number of PyramidCoins issued per day will halve, so there is a limited total supply.

Now what is the outcome of this?  The guy who starts it all puts in 1 gold bar at a time, declaring 1000 PyramidCoins for himself.  Slowly more people start to join, and for awhile there's a small group of 10 people each getting 100 PyramidCoins per day for their gold bars.  Eventually more join, and people are getting less PyramidCoin for the same bar of gold.

What I am suggesting
If you use bitcoins, congratulations, you have been fooled into using PyramidCoins.  Note I don't necessarily believe Satoshi intended things to be this way.  From reading his early posts, he seemed to be aware this kind of scheme would incentivise early adopters, but it is not clear that he actively intended to construct a pyramid scheme as opposed to not just thinking things all the way through.

My suggestion/scheme is to stop using PyramidCoins.  Just use your gold instead!!

How can we do that?  Well, it would be nice to eliminate the "Gold Registry" altogether.  Unfortunately, that seems technically difficult for information-money which can easily be copied.

Alternatively, we can issue 1 PyramidCoin per 1 Gold bar.  That's reasonable, but with information-gold it may be that producing 1 bar of gold next year costs 1/2 as much as this year, so it would be nice to protect people from that.

So we set the PyramidCoin per Gold bar issuance rate by vote.  That is my suggestion.
Thanak
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July 28, 2011, 03:30:13 PM
 #32

[Here is a comparison of bitcoin to gold
Imagine the first person to find gold said "OK everyone, 1oz of your gold shall be worth 1 million times less than 1oz my gold".  How could they enforce that, if all gold looks the same?  By building a "Gold Registry", where everyone must register their gold, and then declaring that only registered Gold is valuable.  More precisely, rather than trading gold, it is declared that all business shall be done in units called "PyramidCoins".  and they will be given 10 PyramidCoins each.  If multiple people each give multiple gold bExactly 1000 PyramidCoins will be issued per day, in exchange for whatever Gold people are willing to register that day.  That is, if there is only 1 person willing to give 1 gold bar, they are given all 1000 PyramidCoins for their single bar of gold.  But if instead, 100 people are each willing to give 1 gold bar, the 1000 PyramidCoins will be divided between them ars, the 1000 PyramidCoins are divided in proportion to the number of gold bars they registered.  It is also declared that every 25 years, the number of PyramidCoins issued per day will halve, so there is a limited total supply.


Your comparison is wrong.


The first gold found was easier to find than any gold you can find now. The firsts people to arrived in the Klondike had an easier time to find gold than I would have now.

The first bitcoin mined is worth exactly the same as one bitcoin mined today. It's just harder to find.

The limited supply of bitcoin is the primary reason that people are interested in it as a currency. Take that away and you are back in the same playing field as world of warcraft gold.

If can teach Go/Weichi/Baduk for BTC - I'm 1 kyu on KGS - 0.2 BTC for one hour lesson, 0.1 BTC for a game review - mail at Baduk4Bitcoin@gmail.com
jtimon
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July 28, 2011, 05:43:09 PM
 #33

Money must be scarce or based on direct credit (like LETS or Ripple).
When you own scarce money, society as a whole credits you, because they have to provide you goods or service in exchange of your money.
But why would society credit you for owning something abundant ?
You say that they will credit you because that useless (apart from being used as money) commodity is expensive to produce. But there you're relying on the labor theory of value, which is wrong.
Solving inequalities by making money expensive to produce sounds to me like a state hiring people to dig a ditch and then burying it again to prevent unemployment.

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
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