Why do you believe God exists?

[af_newbie]

I think a more interesting question is, why does God hide himself from some people but not from others? We hear all these stories about personal experiences with God. How come God chooses to reveal himself in such cases?

For some people, they never had any experience at all. This is mind boggling to me.

Because some people are delusional, while others are not.

God is a mental image or a feeling.  It is a product of an overactive human imagination.

I think this God concept was needed to help us survive in the magical world we saw all around us.

So, the idea of God is an evolutionary adaptation, IMHO.

It is possible, but don't you think it is better to keep an open mind?

Of course.  Present me with the evidence of God, and I will believe.

Describe what God looks like, provide testable evidence in his existence, provide means to communicate with him/her and I am in.

Instead, what we have is plenty of evidence that there is no God (or God does not care about this planet and this particular species of mammals), so yes, I am open-minded.

BTW, if God would appear in front of me right now, I would ask him: "What's up with all the hide and seek?  Come closer so that I can punch your lights out for making people kill each other in your fucking name."

I know I am a better being than any God from the scriptures.

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[ATMD]

Of course.  Present me with the evidence of God, and I will believe.

Describe what God looks like, provide testable evidence in his existence, provide means to communicate with him/her and I am in.

Instead, what we have is plenty of evidence that there is no God (or God does not care about this planet and this particular species of mammals), so yes, I am open-minded.

BTW, if God would appear in front of me right now, I would ask him: "What's up with all the hide and seek?  Come closer so that I can punch your lights out for making people kill each other in your fucking name."

I know I am a better being than any God from the scriptures.

If I were able to present evidence of God, there is no need for an open mind. Even a closed mind would accept God if I can present God to him. An open mind accepts the possibility that there is God, but also accepts the possibility that there is no God. His mind is open.

[af_newbie]

Of course.  Present me with the evidence of God, and I will believe.

Describe what God looks like, provide testable evidence in his existence, provide means to communicate with him/her and I am in.

Instead, what we have is plenty of evidence that there is no God (or God does not care about this planet and this particular species of mammals), so yes, I am open-minded.

BTW, if God would appear in front of me right now, I would ask him: "What's up with all the hide and seek?  Come closer so that I can punch your lights out for making people kill each other in your fucking name."

I know I am a better being than any God from the scriptures.

If I were able to present evidence of God, there is no need for an open mind. Even a closed mind would accept God if I can present God to him. An open mind accepts the possibility that there is God, but also accepts the possibility that there is no God. His mind is open.

You need an open mind to evaluate if the evidence presented is true.

Accepting religious stories without evidence is being gullible, not being open-minded.

You can say I don't know if a God exists.

The evidence presented in the scriptures definitely rules out the existence of those Abrahamic Gods.  End of story.

If you have the evidence for any other Gods, let's hear it.

[ATMD]

You need an open mind to evaluate if the evidence presented is true.

Accepting religious stories without evidence is being gullible, not being open-minded.

You can say I don't know if a God exists.

The evidence presented in the scriptures definitely rules out the existence of those Abrahamic Gods.  End of story.

If you have evidence of any other Gods, let's hear it.

Exactly. You need an open mind to evaluate if the evidence presented is true. The problem for both of us is the evidences are anecdotal. A guy says an unbelievable miracle happened in his life blah blah blah... Another guy says this unexplained miracle happened in his life blah blah blah... These are anecdotal evidences, they can not be proven by anyone except the person himself. I am not talking about the bible, it is not evidence. I am talking about mystical, spiritual experiences that science can not explain. How do we, as logical scientific-minded people, reconcile these experiences with our science? Are we to dismiss their experiences as being crazy and simply hallucination? If we say that, they would call us close-minded people.

[af_newbie]

You need an open mind to evaluate if the evidence presented is true.

Accepting religious stories without evidence is being gullible, not being open-minded.

You can say I don't know if a God exists.

The evidence presented in the scriptures definitely rules out the existence of those Abrahamic Gods.  End of story.

If you have evidence of any other Gods, let's hear it.

Exactly. You need an open mind to evaluate if the evidence presented is true. The problem for both of us is the evidences are anecdotal. A guy says an unbelievable miracle happened in his life blah blah blah... Another guy says this unexplained miracle happened in his life blah blah blah... These are anecdotal evidences, they can not be proven by anyone except the person himself. I am not talking about the bible, it is not evidence. I am talking about mystical, spiritual experiences that science can not explain. How do we, as logical scientific-minded people, reconcile these experiences with our science? Are we to dismiss their experiences as being crazy and simply hallucination? If we say that, they would call us close-minded people.

Those are brain malfunctions.  Unless you have some objective observers verifying the experience, these "spiritual experiences" are just that, confined to a person's brain.  Just like dreams or conscious thoughts.

The human brain is very complicated.  Many people suffer from mental disorders.  I think believing in something that is not real is a delusion.

Religion is a mental disorder.

[ATMD]

Those are brain malfunctions.  Unless you have some objective observers verifying the experience, these "spiritual experiences" are just that, confined to a person's brain.  Just like dreams or conscious thoughts.

The human brain is very complicated.  Many people suffer from mental disorders.  I think believing in something that is not real is a delusion.

Religion is a mental disorder.

Yes, but how do we know what they experience is not real. Their experiences could very well be as real as the keyboard you are typing on.

Is it because we can not observe God for ourselves?

What if the nature of God is a personal relationship?

If we have no personal relationship with God does that mean others can not have as well?

To dismiss their relationships with God would be lying to ourselves.

[af_newbie]

Those are brain malfunctions.  Unless you have some objective observers verifying the experience, these "spiritual experiences" are just that, confined to a person's brain.  Just like dreams or conscious thoughts.

The human brain is very complicated.  Many people suffer from mental disorders.  I think believing in something that is not real is a delusion.

Religion is a mental disorder.

Yes, but how do we know what they experience is not real. Their experiences could very well be as real as the keyboard you are typing on.

Is it because we can not observe God for ourselves?

What if the nature of God is a personal relationship?

If we have no personal relationship with God does that mean others can not have as well?

To dismiss their relationships with God would be lying to ourselves.

The personal spiritual experiences are real.  Those are internal to a person's brain.  How do we know?  We see their brain activity on the brain scans.

Unfortunately, the object of those experiences is not real UNLESS other people and instruments/cameras can observe/record EXACTLY THE SAME experience.

Many people believe that they are Napoleons.  Their experience is real to them.  However, we know they are delusional just like people who see, hear or 'feel' Jesus.

[ATMD]

The personal spiritual experiences are real.  Those are internal to a person's brain.  How do we know?  We see their brain activity on the brain scans.

Unfortunately, the object of those experiences is not real UNLESS other people and instruments/cameras can observe/record EXACTLY THE SAME experience.

Many people believe that they are Napoleons.  Their experience is real to them.  However, we know they are delusional just like people who see, hear or 'feel' Jesus.

Yes, but if we could also experience those things too, the nature of God would no longer be personal. It would be public to everyone.

For all we know, God does not follow the rules of science and physics. God could easily be invisible to our eyes and our instruments, does that mean God does not exist? Then this would mean that we are God, because either we can observe it or it does not exist.

[af_newbie]

The personal spiritual experiences are real.  Those are internal to a person's brain.  How do we know?  We see their brain activity on the brain scans.

Unfortunately, the object of those experiences is not real UNLESS other people and instruments/cameras can observe/record EXACTLY THE SAME experience.

Many people believe that they are Napoleons.  Their experience is real to them.  However, we know they are delusional just like people who see, hear or 'feel' Jesus.

Yes, but if we could also experience those things too, the nature of God is no longer personal. It is now public to everyone who has a camera/instrument.

Let's see the footage of God then.  Where is it?  There are billions of videos on youtube, not one is from God.

Anyone who reads this thread and can talk to God, please ask God to post here.

Why does God need salesmen?  He does not care to show up for work?  I would fire his ass in a New York minute.

[ATMD]

Let's see the footage of God then.  Where is it?  There are billions of videos on youtube, not one is from God.

Anyone who reads this thread and can talk to God, please ask God to post here.

Why does God need salesmen?  He does not care to show up for work?  I would fire his ass in a New York minute.

Sorry I edited my answer to add a bit more info. I wanted to say that if God shows up on Youtube, it would mean that the nature of God is no longer a private relationship, but rather a public one.

[af_newbie]

The personal spiritual experiences are real.  Those are internal to a person's brain.  How do we know?  We see their brain activity on the brain scans.

Unfortunately, the object of those experiences is not real UNLESS other people and instruments/cameras can observe/record EXACTLY THE SAME experience.

Many people believe that they are Napoleons.  Their experience is real to them.  However, we know they are delusional just like people who see, hear or 'feel' Jesus.

Yes, but if we could also experience those things too, the nature of God would no longer be personal. It would be public to everyone.

For all we know, God does not follow the rules of science and physics. God could easily be invisible to our eyes and our instruments, does that mean God does not exist? Then this would mean that we are God, because either we can observe it or it does not exist.

Wow, that is a big conjecture right there.

First of all, if that were the case, how would you distinguish God from something that does not exist?  So it is safe to put God in the same bucket as things that do not exist.

Snow White might exist just as well as any of the Gods people wrote about over the years.

Do you believe Snow White exists?  How about Santa Claus?

We have no evidence that God exists, that is all we can say.

Fantasising about things that might exist does not get us any closer to the truth.

[ATMD]

Wow, that is a big conjecture right there.

First of all, if that were the case, how would you distinguish God from something that does not exist?  So it is safe to put God in the same bucket as things that do not exist.

Snow White might exist just as well as any of the Gods people wrote about over the years.

Do you believe Snow White exists?  How about Santa Claus?

We have no evidence that God exists, that is all we can say.

Fantasising about things that might exist does not get us any closer to the truth.

You are right, we have no scientific evidence that God exists, only anecdotal evidences.

Regarding the conjecture, I am not sure it is a big ask to be honest. If even God has to follow the laws of physics (must only be at one place at one time, must be subjected to the laws of gravity, must be able to be detected by our techno scientific instruments etc), then God ceases to be God. He would not be any different to you or me.

I would not compare God to Snow White or Santa Claus because the experience of God is a global phenomenon from people from all cultures around the world throughout the history of mankind.

[CoinCube]

There are billions of videos on youtube.  Not one is from God himself.

Say God came to you personally via YouTube or whatever format you found convincing gave you personal commands after informing you that you as the creator of the universe his will is paramount.

In that circumstance would you be a free man or a slave?

You would be a slave compelled by a power greater then you. By not compelling our belief God grants us freedom. We are free to accept God or reject him.

When we genuinely look for God he is easily found in the miracles of daily life all around us. Similarly when we truly reject God he becomes all but invisible to us and we are left alone to swim in a sea of nihilism.

[af_newbie]

There are billions of videos on youtube.  Not one is from God himself.

Say God came to you personally via YouTube or whatever format you found convincing gave you personal commands after informing you that you as the creator of the universe his will is paramount.

I would question my sanity first.  Then I would give him a test that the only expert in the fields of Theoretical Physics, History, Mathematics, Chemistry, Biology, Civil Engineering, and CS would know.  I would ask him how my grandfather died and what watch brand was he wearing when he died.  Who was with him when he died?

I would ask other anti-Theists to talk to him and let me know what they think just to eliminate my subjective interpretation of the interaction.
 

In that circumstance would you be a free man or a slave?

Under all circumstances, I am a free man.  Always was and always will be.

You would be a slave compelled by a power greater then you. By not compelling our belief God grants us freedom. We are free to accept God or reject him.

No, I would not.  If something would make me a slave, I would go and check myself into a mental institution, because this would mean I am losing my mind.

When we genuinely look for God he is easily found in the miracles of daily life all around us.

That is when your delusion starts and your sanity ends.

[Astargath]

There are billions of videos on youtube.  Not one is from God himself.

Say God came to you personally via YouTube or whatever format you found convincing gave you personal commands after informing you that you as the creator of the universe his will is paramount.

In that circumstance would you be a free man or a slave?

You would be a slave compelled by a power greater then you. By not compelling our belief God grants us freedom. We are free to accept God or reject him.

When we genuinely look for God he is easily found in the miracles of daily life all around us. Similarly when we truly reject God he becomes all but invisible to us and we are left alone to swim in a sea of nihilism.

We are slaves already, it's either belief in god or torture in hell forever. If God wanted, he would know exactly what it takes to convince me or newbie of his existence. God does not exist.

[CoinCube]

Under all circumstances, I am a free man.  Always was and always will be.

Yes you are a free man. You live in a deterministic universe yet you are free. You fail to see the miracle in that which is your perogrative.

If you were denied the ability to reject God whatever the circumstances you would not ultimately be free.

We are slaves already, it's either belief in god or torture in hell forever. If God wanted, he would know exactly what it takes to convince me or newbie of his existence. God does not exist.

Do you feel like a slave? Do you feel you have no choice?

Or do you feel you were given a choice evaluated the data and made a decision?

[Astargath]

Under all circumstances, I am a free man.  Always was and always will be.

Yes you are a free man. You live in a deterministic universe yet you are free. You fail to see the miracle in that which is your perogrative.

If you were denied the ability to reject God whatever the circumstances you would not ultimately be free.

We are slaves already, it's either belief in god or torture in hell forever. If God wanted, he would know exactly what it takes to convince me or newbie of his existence. God does not exist.

Do you feel like a slave? Do you feel you have no choice?

Or do you feel you were given a choice evaluated the data and made a decision?

If a robber points a gun at you and he asks you to give him your money or die, do you feel like slave? You have a choice, don't you?

[CoinCube]

If a robber points a gun at you and he asks you to give him your money or die, do you feel like slave? You have a choice, don't you?

Obey or be killed. The choice shared by all slaves throughout history.

[Astargath]

If a robber points a gun at you and he asks you to give him your money or die, do you feel like slave? You have a choice, don't you?

Obey or be killed. The choice shared by all slaves throughout history.

And that's god, obey or be tortured forever in hell. Then again, god from the bible doesn't exist, clearly.

By definition in the bible, God is all knowing and all loving, therefore he would want all humans to believe and follow him. Do all humans follow and believe in him? No, therefore, god doesn't exist. Because an all knowing, all powerful all loving god would be able to make everyone believe in him (without forcing them either).

Let's say he couldn't, then why create humans at all? Why create animals? They are all going to die and lots of them will be tortured forever or die, what's the point of it? Just don't create them if you are all loving, you are essentially creating pain for nothing.

[CoinCube]

And that's god, obey or be tortured forever in hell. Then again, god from the bible doesn't exist, clearly.

Any existence beyond death is unearned. All we have earned is oblivion. An afterlife would be a gift of grace one we certainly do not deserve.

The difference here is that the robber is taking from you by force weakening maybe even killing you.

An afterlife would be the opposite process an unearned gift making you stronger and extending your existence long after it would have run its natural course into oblivion.

An all knowing, all powerful all loving god would be able to make everyone believe in him (without forcing them either).

God could certainly could have done that. He could also have made a universe without any freedom where everything just played itself out in a predetermined manner like a rock falling to the ground.

Instead he created an ordered open universe where everything seems possible and freedom is maximized. Great error is permitted and belief is not compelled. That is in my humble opinion a far grander accomplishment.