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Author Topic: 450btc Bounty (Pledge) for Open Source Exchange project.  (Read 10514 times)
Anonymous
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December 28, 2010, 11:52:57 PM
Last edit: December 30, 2010, 09:01:46 PM by noagendamarket
 #1

It is becoming clearer we need a way for anyone to set up a bitcoin exchange easily . This must be open source but let companies build on top if need be.

A bonus feature would be the ability for the default installation  to plugin to mt gox or bitcoin market .

10%  of bitcoins earned from http://bitcoin.me will be added to this bounty so claim your vanity bitcoin address and help grow this project at the same time.  Smiley

This bounty is a pledge drive. No one has to send any coins untill the project is founded.

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Mahkul  250



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December 29, 2010, 12:06:14 AM
 #2

Pledge 100 BTC.

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December 29, 2010, 12:14:58 AM
 #3

A bonus feature would be the ability for the default installation  to plugin to mt gox or bitcoin market .
Define "plug in to mt gox"

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December 29, 2010, 12:21:27 AM
 #4

Starting tomorrow, I will accelerate development of bitpredict so I can take on this project.

I been anticipating this project for quite some time but I did not expect anybody would take initiative in funding this project.

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December 29, 2010, 12:26:52 AM
 #5

I desperately need something like that to create an exchange in Poland.

One thing I don't know how to approach is how to build up a graph that would show relation between BTC and PLN (Polish Zloty)? I don't mean how to draw it, but where to get the current value of PLN from? Would I have to connect to mtgox first and then check how PLN is to USD?

Once someone explains that to me I would be happy to pledge 250BTC for this.
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December 29, 2010, 12:33:49 AM
 #6

You could write a script to extract the USD/PLN exchange rate from this screen:
http://www.xe.com/currency/pln-polish-zloty

Or, maybe this needs to be a requirement of the project, i.e., the acquisition of real-time exchange rates.

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December 29, 2010, 12:35:40 AM
 #7

One thing I don't know how to approach is how to build up a graph that would show relation between BTC and PLN (Polish Zloty)? I don't mean how to draw it, but where to get the current value of PLN from? Would I have to connect to mtgox first and then check how PLN is to USD?

The value of PLN is based on each BTC/PLN trade that occurs on the BTC/PLN exchange.

The traders who create orders on the BTN/PLN exchange are the ones who determine the current value -- which is, by definition, the value of the most recent BTN/PLN completed trade.  This describes automated currency exchanges -- open markets -- such as mtgox.

Other sites that perform manual currency exchanges simply calculate an exchange rate based on

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December 29, 2010, 12:40:42 AM
 #8

One thing I don't know how to approach is how to build up a graph that would show relation between BTC and PLN (Polish Zloty)? I don't mean how to draw it, but where to get the current value of PLN from? Would I have to connect to mtgox first and then check how PLN is to USD?

The value of PLN is based on each BTC/PLN trade that occurs on the BTC/PLN exchange.

The traders who create orders on the BTN/PLN exchange are the ones who determine the current value -- which is, by definition, the value of the most recent BTN/PLN completed trade.

Thank you jgarzik. So, in theory, that means that the relation between PLN and BTC could be different than the relation between USD and BTC shown on mtgox? Of course this won't be off by much, because then people will go somewhere else, unless someone is selling coins for nothing? For some reason I was thinking that my exchange would have to monitor values on mtgox and follow it. Stupid me.
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December 29, 2010, 12:42:17 AM
 #9

I pledge 250BTC  Cool
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December 29, 2010, 12:45:49 AM
 #10

Thank you jgarzik. So, in theory, that means that the relation between PLN and BTC could be different than the relation between USD and BTC shown on mtgox? Of course this won't be off by much, because then people will go somewhere else, unless someone is selling coins for nothing? For some reason I was thinking that my exchange would have to monitor values on mtgox and follow it. Stupid me.

Option 1:  In an open market exchange, an exchange assumes a neutral role, connecting (a) people selling PLN for BTC with (b) people selling BTC for PLN.  The exchange rate is based on the most-recent currency trade between users.  If there is a difference between BTC/PLN and BTC/USD rate, then users may make a profit on that difference through arbitrage.

Option 2:  In a for-profit currency exchange, you are seeking to (a) sell PLN, buy BTC or (b) buy PLN, sell BTC for customers.  You set the exchange rate, based on your informed knowledge of BTC, USD and PLN exchange rates, and customers will buy--or not--based on your store's exchange rates.

Remember, value of USD and PLN varies in the real world too!

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December 29, 2010, 12:58:12 AM
 #11

What I would love to be doing is charging something like 0.5% per transaction (isn't that what mtgox is doing?), but only in BTC. I don't want to take a risk and get commission in PLN (the Revenue office in Poland wouldn't like that). Do you think it would be fair to only get commission from people selling BTC (and not PLN)? In other words, it is always the BTC seller who pays the commission and not the buyer.
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December 29, 2010, 01:46:53 AM
 #12

Instead of pledging small bounties for what is an important project, it might be a good idea if we setup a page on the wiki and begin documenting how such a site should look/function.

Making this site is piss easy. It's the spec that's hard.

Then after we can make a git repo and begin coding.

I have no idea how such a thing would function. But with a clear document with simplistic drawings i'm confident we could easily do this in a week or less.

How about pledging the money not for the software (which is likely to be some weekend shoddy hackjob which isn't maintained) but for a comprehensive design spec detailing exactly what each page of the site does, how the API looks, how the tech works .etc

Such a thing on the wiki can then be easily discussed/maintained by others.

1- I pledge to help with designing the look or coding.
Anonymous
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December 29, 2010, 08:16:55 PM
 #13

Instead of pledging small bounties for what is an important project, it might be a good idea if we setup a page on the wiki and begin documenting how such a site should look/function.

Making this site is piss easy. It's the spec that's hard.

Then after we can make a git repo and begin coding.

I have no idea how such a thing would function. But with a clear document with simplistic drawings i'm confident we could easily do this in a week or less.

How about pledging the money not for the software (which is likely to be some weekend shoddy hackjob which isn't maintained) but for a comprehensive design spec detailing exactly what each page of the site does, how the API looks, how the tech works .etc

Such a thing on the wiki can then be easily discussed/maintained by others.

1- I pledge to help with designing the look or coding.

I agree on documenting things . Its not actually the site thats important its coming up with some sort of standard for future reference.

I have another bounty for something similar which is a web based currency converter like you see at xe.com  A current list of resources for people to use to build on top of would be helpful.

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December 29, 2010, 09:14:54 PM
 #14

I would love such a spec be put together, that might mean if bitcoin-central.net, my new baby fits in i'll get to collect the bounty the day i feel like opensourcing Smiley

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December 29, 2010, 10:38:52 PM
 #15

I would love such a spec be put together, that might mean if bitcoin-central.net, my new baby fits in i'll get to collect the bounty the day i feel like opensourcing Smiley


I dont have a problem with that.  Smiley


Anonymous
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December 29, 2010, 10:43:44 PM
 #16

A bonus feature would be the ability for the default installation  to plugin to mt gox or bitcoin market .
Define "plug in to mt gox"

Include the docs on exactly how to use the merchant api.

Something similar was done recently for mybitcoin thanks to madhatter.

There are a few currency conversion tools that also would be helpful to include...yahoo? xe.com?

Anonymous
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December 29, 2010, 10:45:37 PM
 #17

What I would love to be doing is charging something like 0.5% per transaction (isn't that what mtgox is doing?), but only in BTC. I don't want to take a risk and get commission in PLN (the Revenue office in Poland wouldn't like that). Do you think it would be fair to only get commission from people selling BTC (and not PLN)? In other words, it is always the BTC seller who pays the commission and not the buyer.

I think charging for filling up your account might be better than per trade fees?

For example a currency exchange that lets you fill up your trade wallet for a fee.
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December 29, 2010, 10:46:27 PM
 #18

Instead of pledging small bounties for what is an important project, it might be a good idea if we setup a page on the wiki and begin documenting how such a site should look/function.

I agree on documenting things . Its not actually the site thats important its coming up with some sort of standard for future reference.

I have another bounty for something similar which is a web based currency converter like you see at xe.com  A current list of resources for people to use to build on top of would be helpful.


I urge the exact opposite -- start coding first.  If people start writing, then you wind up with a project where kiba, RHorning and other talkative types have a lot of input into something that few programmers are interested in coding.

Absent a real bounty, that compensates real programmers at real market rates (100+ BTC/hour), you are looking at volunteer programmers working on their own inclination, on their own time, to produce something that interests them.  A wiki document might be "interesting" reference material, but don't expect volunteer programmers to write code for a spec created out of thin air by non-programmers.

The world is littered with useless, pie-in-the-sky specifications better suited for garbage pails.  And those were written by engineers.  Specifications written by management types that don't code are even worse.

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December 29, 2010, 10:54:41 PM
 #19

I want to earn bitcoin, not be a volunteer programmer.  Wink

That being said, there's some benefit in having a clear spec.

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December 29, 2010, 11:57:32 PM
 #20

The world is littered with useless, pie-in-the-sky specifications better suited for garbage pails.  And those were written by engineers.  Specifications written by management types that don't code are even worse.

After Apache 1, instead of jumping into coding Apache they spent more than a year documenting how they should think it looks. Then with Apache 2 they had an exact idea what to make and it was a true community effort.

codeswarm apache visualisation:
http://www.vimeo.com/1076588

Python does the same with the PSEPs.

Remember the python zen:
Now is better than never.
Although never is often better than *right* now.

Free software projects are really excellent when they have to code programs where it's clear what the function is. But when there's no framework or beginning idea in place then it's more a hackfest. That's why much of the best free software projects are opened-up former closed projects (firefox, blender, openoffice, qt, ...)- because now it's clear to everyone which direction the project has to go and the swarm can iterate to perfection.

I have no idea what an exchange site looks like. But having a spec and some screenshot mockups would make it super easy for everyone to contribute a few modules and quickly get such a site done. It's something everyone wants and I'm sure everyone will chip in a small amount of time to maintain their own modules (it's not even a hard thing to code- probably).

We aren't talking about a huge 1000 page documentation bible but maybe 10 pages or so saying screen X does this, blaa blaa.
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December 30, 2010, 12:00:30 AM
 #21

Yes, but with Apache and Python, it was the people who were doing the engineering writing further proposals.

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December 30, 2010, 06:24:05 AM
 #22

So, what does an exchange look like?

Anyone do a simple powerpoint(OpenOffice.org present) mockup?

2-5 slides?

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December 30, 2010, 07:58:25 AM
 #23

Yes, but with Apache and Python, it was the people who were doing the engineering writing further proposals.
+1, also there already was apache 1 that they got lots of experience from.

Instead of pledging small bounties for what is an important project, it might be a good idea if we setup a page on the wiki and begin documenting how such a site should look/function.

I agree on documenting things . Its not actually the site thats important its coming up with some sort of standard for future reference.

I have another bounty for something similar which is a web based currency converter like you see at xe.com  A current list of resources for people to use to build on top of would be helpful.


I urge the exact opposite -- start coding first.  If people start writing, then you wind up with a project where kiba, RHorning and other talkative types have a lot of input into something that few programmers are interested in coding.
+1 on coding first, actually, +1 on "start coding failing tests first"


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December 30, 2010, 11:13:22 AM
 #24

It would be nice to have some input from those who already run exchanges?

Seems to me their experience would be valuable vis a vis problems and issues that need to be addressed.

One of the major issues is what are you exchanging from and to? Is it just e-currencies or national currencies? What are the methods to get money in and out of the exchange?

I can soon offer the bank accounts needed for direct deposits if that helps. I would  like to see something that helps the community rather than just create another closed source exchange.

Id also rather something practical is done rather than a talk fest similar to the bit-dns debacle  Tongue

Is there a problem with documenting the project as it goes along?
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December 30, 2010, 01:16:15 PM
 #25

no the problem is that i have no idea wtf something like this even looks like.

if someone makes a mockup then i'll start doing the graphic design for the page and helping out with coding.

If someone wants to make a git project this week and after post their repo here so I can fetch it.

Please make it with modularisation in mind. That is all.

Is it really too hard to make some rough documents? Won't even take a day for someone in the know. But whatever... prototype code is a longer form but basically the same.
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December 30, 2010, 02:50:14 PM
 #26

Actually this is something that I would like to create, I will have more free time over the next few weeks so I should have something at the end of a 3 week period. It won't look nice but it will be functional, my skill is not design(would anyone like to do the style?actually it is better to have some visual mockups first, anyone want to collaborate on this?), and as I have mentioned before I am not a very fast developer.

I will begin coding on Monday(I am always busy on the weekend).

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December 30, 2010, 03:45:53 PM
Last edit: December 30, 2010, 04:37:29 PM by grondilu
 #27

What would do such an exchange plateform exactly ?

To me it should give tools to maintain order books.

User should be identified with a key pair.  Whether it is GnuPG, DSA, or even bitcoin ECDSA extracted from wallets.  Depending of the format of the public key, the software should be able to recognize which one it should use.

It should allow to exchange any kind of asset.  Not just currencies.  Yes, I'm thinking about share holdings.  But actually any kind of asset, like with the loom project (https://loom.cc).

It should maintain all possible book orders.  With N differrent assets, there will be N * (N-1)/2 possible kind of books.  But if we want to trade everything only against bitcoins, then we'll have only N books.

The software should do adjudication.  Given a set of orders, extract matching ones and decide which should be executed and which should be postponed.  Execution would only consist in contacting issuers of the matching order, so that they can proceed to the actual trade.  Unless we want to implement an escrow or banking account service too.

A rating system should be available.

So basically what we need is a protocol, rather than a software.


To sum up, the features would be :

* publish an order.  Characteristcs are : 
- identification of the asset (Paypal USD, 20 EUR via mail, company share,...) using an asset code ;
- quantity ;
- price ( bid or ask ) ;
- public key and signature of the issuer of the order ;
- an indication whether or not the order can be executed partially ;
- time validity of the order ;

* adjudication algorithm.  This might very well be the toughest part ;

* rate a user.  Each member signs a rating of the public keys of other members.


Maybe I miss something but that's how I see the whole thing.

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December 30, 2010, 04:12:25 PM
 #28

Noagendamarket really should update the thread to say that there's more than 100 BTC and also lists all the people who pledge too.

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December 30, 2010, 05:05:57 PM
 #29

What would do such an exchange plateform exactly ?

To me it should give tools to maintain order books.

User should be identified with a key pair.  Whether it is GnuPG, DSA, or even bitcoin ECDSA extracted from wallets.  Depending of the format of the public key, the software should be able to recognize which one it should use.

It should allow to exchange any kind of asset.  Not just currencies.  Yes, I'm thinking about share holdings.  But actually any kind of asset, like with the loom project (https://loom.cc).

It should maintain all possible book orders.  With N differrent assets, there will be N * (N-1)/2 possible kind of books.  But if we want to trade everything only against bitcoins, then we'll have only N books.

The software should do adjudication.  Given a set of orders, extract matching ones and decide which should be executed and which should be postponed.  Execution would only consist in contacting issuers of the matching order, so that they can proceed to the actual trade.  Unless we want to implement an escrow or banking account service too.

A rating system should be available.

So basically what we need is a protocol, rather than a software.


To sum up, the features would be :

* publish an order.  Characteristcs are : 
- identification of the asset (Paypal USD, 20 EUR via mail, company share,...) using an asset code ;
- quantity ;
- price ( bid or ask ) ;
- public key and signature of the issuer of the order ;
- an indication whether or not the order can be executed partially ;
- time validity of the order ;

* adjudication algorithm.  This might very well be the toughest part ;

* rate a user.  Each member signs a rating of the public keys of other members.


Maybe I miss something but that's how I see the whole thing.


That would be more difficult than what I was thinking of. But it would also be much much better.

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December 30, 2010, 05:48:05 PM
 #30

Are there people who are willing to pledge more bitcoin so guys like me will think it's worth the effort of coding it?

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December 30, 2010, 06:47:48 PM
 #31

Are there people who are willing to pledge more bitcoin so guys like me will think it's worth the effort of coding it?

Come on guys...  Don't you like coding just for the fun of it ?  I'm currently working on something else right now, I will release the source code once it's done, and yet I don't expect to get any bitcoin for it.

It's very easy to pay someone with bitcoin, and yet I don't think this is a reason why we should pay for everything.

Moreover, I actually tend to think that the code is better when it is done for free, because the developper really enjoyed his work, and did not do it just for the money.

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December 30, 2010, 06:56:52 PM
 #32


Moreover, I actually tend to think that the code is better when it is done for free, because the developper really enjoyed his work, and did not do it just for the money.


I don't want to get paid in lame dollars. I want to get paid in bitcoin.

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December 30, 2010, 07:00:42 PM
 #33

I don't want to get paid in lame dollars. I want to get paid in bitcoin.

Try to think about the bitcoins you will earn when the software is done and you use it to do business.

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December 30, 2010, 08:54:46 PM
 #34

Noagendamarket really should update the thread to say that there's more than 100 BTC and also lists all the people who pledge too.


Sorry I am a bit busy over the christmas holidays  Tongue

Doing it now.
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December 30, 2010, 09:12:27 PM
 #35

What would do such an exchange plateform exactly ?

To me it should give tools to maintain order books.

User should be identified with a key pair.  Whether it is GnuPG, DSA, or even bitcoin ECDSA extracted from wallets.  Depending of the format of the public key, the software should be able to recognize which one it should use.

It should allow to exchange any kind of asset.  Not just currencies.  Yes, I'm thinking about share holdings.  But actually any kind of asset, like with the loom project (https://loom.cc).

It should maintain all possible book orders.  With N differrent assets, there will be N * (N-1)/2 possible kind of books.  But if we want to trade everything only against bitcoins, then we'll have only N books.

The software should do adjudication.  Given a set of orders, extract matching ones and decide which should be executed and which should be postponed.  Execution would only consist in contacting issuers of the matching order, so that they can proceed to the actual trade.  Unless we want to implement an escrow or banking account service too.

A rating system should be available.

So basically what we need is a protocol, rather than a software.


To sum up, the features would be :

* publish an order.  Characteristcs are :  
- identification of the asset (Paypal USD, 20 EUR via mail, company share,...) using an asset code ;
- quantity ;
- price ( bid or ask ) ;
- public key and signature of the issuer of the order ;
- an indication whether or not the order can be executed partially ;
- time validity of the order ;

* adjudication algorithm.  This might very well be the toughest part ;

* rate a user.  Each member signs a rating of the public keys of other members.


Maybe I miss something but that's how I see the whole thing.


That sounds about right.
I believe the #bitcoin-otc trading desk and the reputation system could be a useful part of this project. Maybe an implementation that uses it to bootstrap off...if you think about it bitcoin itself uses irc to bootstrap . Its definitely a great starting point.

Speaking of xe.com I like how people can enter an amount of one currency and it converts to another.  A web page that does this does not yet exist so this could be a feature that sets this project apart if it can be done.

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December 30, 2010, 11:15:33 PM
Last edit: December 30, 2010, 11:43:49 PM by grondilu
 #36

I'd like to see a Unix-style program that would parse ASCII column format for orders on stdin, and would output matching, adjudicated orders.


So the usage of the program would be :

$ adjudicate < orders-file

Where "orders-file" would be a column-oriented data file with the following columns :

ID:  some random unique string to identify the order
DATE: date when the order was signed in seconds since EPOCH
ASSET: identification string for the asset/currency
AMOUNT: quantity of the order.
PARTIAL: 0 if the order can be executed partially, 1 otherwise.
PRICE:  limit price for the order.  Positive for a bid, negative for an ask.  Price is in bitcoins, of course Wink
DEADLINE:  limit date for the validity of the order
FINGERPRINT: the fingerprint of the issuer's GnuPG public key
SIGNATURE:  a hyperlink to the signature of this order.


So there is one line for each order.   Therefore the program can be easily inserted in an pipe.

The program searches for matching orders, and determines a selling price, according to some rules that we have yet to decide.

Consider for instance those two matching orders :

A. quantity=1000, bid=110
B. quantity=100, ask=90

So at which price should the trade be done ?  90, 110, 100 ??  Should the relative quantities intervene in chosing the amount between 90 and 110 ?

What about this situation, where one bid matches two asks :

A. quantity=1000, bid=110
B. quantity=900, ask=90
C. quantity=500, ask=100

Which order should be executed fully between B. and C. ?  Would the criterium be only the date at which the orders were posted ?  Would B. be executed preferentially since it has a lower ask ?

Those rules have to be made clear, and integrated in the adjudication algorithm.

Anyway at the end, if some matching orders were found, the program returns pairs of order IDs. One pair per line.  Orders that are not valid (deadlime in past for instance) are printed on a single line.

For instance this output :

foo1  bar1
foo2  foo3
bar2

means that the order foo1 matches the order bar1 and both should be executed.  Same for foo2 and foo3.
However, bar2 is an order that the program has detected as being non valid.

An other porgram could then use this ouput to update the order-file, and then input the modified version again to the adjudicate program, while adding new orders if there are some.  And the process repeats until there is no more orders.



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December 31, 2010, 05:07:51 AM
 #37


It should allow to exchange any kind of asset.  Not just currencies.  Yes, I'm thinking about share holdings.  But actually any kind of asset, like with the loom project (https://loom.cc).




My comment is going off topic a little (and seems to drift also)so please be patient with me.

Shareholdings, bitcoin based companies that officially do not exist in the real world, this is an interesting idea, I wonder how it might work.

Just had a look at loom.cc, interesting idea, but new accounts require invitations. Does it cost anything to start using loom? It doesn't involve the clearing process it seems. Actually this is what is needed to ensure secure, anonymous (regarding real id's people would still use pseudonyms that have an online reputation) trade.

This is something I've been wondering about, the clearing process. Once an order has been made, how is it settled? And how can we ensure that one or both parties are not cheated? And how can we keep parties from having to learn identifying information about each other(learning each others bank accounts for cash transfer etc.).

I am trying to conceptualise how I can perform Chinese RMB exchange for bitcoin (and fascilitate others doing so) without using my bank account as the clearinghouse (I know this is not the right word but I can't think of any other). Another method is to fascilitate trade between users who will learn each others bank account numbers to perform a trade. There is cash in post, which in China is impossible(post is so unreliable for regular letters, if there is cash involved it will certainly to be stolen). And finally there is face to face meeting.

Would providing a bitcoin escrow solve this issue to an extent?

Governments (especially mine) have gone to great effort to make it difficult to perform trade remotely without being identified to the government. And where cash transfers are concerned this has worked. Money laundering legislation in the US has the same effect. If you cannot prove you earned the money to buy something legally then it can be confiscated. Your home, property etc. In China the situation is even worse as there is a lack of clear judicial process(that is unbiased).

My post probably belongs in a different thread.

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December 31, 2010, 06:12:20 AM
 #38


In China the situation is even worse as there is a lack of clear judicial process(that is unbiased).
 

The government settles disputes between itself and others in America. The only thing clear about the process is that they control it.

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December 31, 2010, 05:42:31 PM
 #39

I am assuming that users of this system will have accounts, and they will be able to do up to two things.
1)buy
This is easy,when a user buys something(using BTC) the amount must be deposited to the system, it will then be kept in escrow until the trade is clear. once the buyer recieves their goods/services they can select to clear the trade, releasing the funds to the seller.

If there are any problems they can dispute the trade - I will discuss this a little later.

2)sell
To be able to sell the user must be verified, this involves:
i)making a BTC deposit (for example 500BTC) that will be used as a kind of insurance and to cover dispute costs.
ii)provide a public key that can be used to authenticate future trades from the user
iii) verify the users email address, which must be the same address in the public key(any email address will do, even on in i2p)
iv)if the users public key is signed by another system user who is also a seller (and has also been verified) this will reduce the amount of the deposit they must make by 100BTC to a minimum of 100BTC(signing by multiple, current users is ok)
v)sellers may only sell 10 times the value of their deposit. If they have 100BTC for example they may sell for a value up to 1000BTC, if they wish to sell more they must deposit more. (Is this a bad idea? I'm not sure about this one, I think it provides a kind of insurance)

This allows for a users identity (their online persona, not their real identity) to be verified with cash(BTC) and a web of trust. This is required for selling because most things being sold cannot be held in escrow until the trade is complete while a buyers BTC easily can.

To put an item for sale on the market the seller must create an order(containing details specified by grondilu). This order is turned into json(or yaml)text and signed with gpg, ensuring it's authenticity. It is then pushed to the server.

The server will verify the authenticity of the signature, check to see if the minimum deposit amount is available and if so, place the sell on the active market table.

once a trade is made (this part requires more details, how is a trade made? this is not ebay or simply an online store)the buy and sell orders are made a pair, the pair is hashed, this hash is id of the trade. The trade is moved from the active trades table to the clearing table.

For the trade to be cleared the buyer must select the "good trade" button (or something like this), if after a period of time (specified by whom?) the trade is not cleared or if the "dispute trade" button is selected by either buyer or seller the trade will go into dispute.

Once a trade is made the seller must, after sending the item to the buyer , select the "sent item" button. The buyer or seller may cancel the trade at any time before the "sent item" button is selected. but there is a cost of 10% of the item cost(perhaps this could be lower, I don't know, but I think there should be a cost to canceling trades) to whomever cancels the trade. 50% of this cost will go to the other party and 50% will go to the market.

Dispute
It is in both parties interests to stay out of dispute. To resolve a dispute will make charges against the buyers and sellers deposit.

Both the buyer and seller will write what the problem is in the dispute application. the details , with the users reputation details will be placed on the dispute application.

the system judges (those who work for the system) will process this application for a fee(this fee is taken from both the sellers and buyers deposit, I don't know the amount), and the judge will make a decision and take appropriate action(such as release funds to the seller from escrow, refund the buy the full amount and take the dispute charges from the sellers deposit).

cleared trades will be added to the reputation of both buyers and sellers. once trade pairs are made both buyers and sellers will have the chance to view each others reputation before continuing or canceling the trade.

The system will take a btc commision on each successful trade, maybe 1%.

At first the interface will be web based, and then desktop clients will be made.

I hope this makes sense and I am not rambling. Please let me know what you think. Also please provide advice where I have missed details or made some mistake or a poor decision.

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December 31, 2010, 06:20:16 PM
 #40

No account.

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December 31, 2010, 06:56:07 PM
 #41

No account.


Short and to the point.

Alternative options to an account based system, and why you think they are preferable.

I think accounts allow the development of reputation and facilitate trade based on that.

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December 31, 2010, 07:26:38 PM
 #42

Short and to the point.

Alternative options to an account based system, and why you think they are preferable.

I think accounts allow the development of reputation and facilitate trade based on that.

I'm not saying we should not use accounts.  I'm saying it's a completely different application.

There are actually several free and open source accounting softwares.  Check in the corresponding category in http://www.gnu.org

What we need is a software that takes charge of exchanges.  Such a software can ignore accounting data, and focus on adjudication.

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December 31, 2010, 11:53:32 PM
 #43

A bitcoin address could be your account number?





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January 01, 2011, 12:08:41 AM
 #44

A bitcoin address could be your account number?


Yeah but in order to make this useful, we have to wait for someone to make a tool for extracting a key from the wallet and output it in a openssl PEM ascii format.  Gavin said that he might be interested in adding that in his bitcointools program suite.

But as I said accounting is not the difficult part.  We should separate activities of accounting, clearing and adjudicating (I may be forgetting some).

Each of them should be able to interact with one another, unix-style.

Because I'm pretty sure developpers will want their own accounting system, or they might want not to implement clearing, and so on...

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January 01, 2011, 03:14:50 AM
 #45

A bitcoin address could be your account number?


Yeah but in order to make this useful, we have to wait for someone to make a tool for extracting a key from the wallet and output it in a openssl PEM ascii format.  Gavin said that he might be interested in adding that in his bitcointools program suite.

But as I said accounting is not the difficult part.  We should separate activities of accounting, clearing and adjudicating (I may be forgetting some).

Each of them should be able to interact with one another, unix-style.

Because I'm pretty sure developpers will want their own accounting system, or they might want not to implement clearing, and so on...


OK now I understand.

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January 01, 2011, 04:54:32 AM
 #46

No account.


This makes a lot of sense.

Having worked for a securities commission I can tell you they really start getting interested in what is going on when you start accepting money from people. You also run into banking legislation problems once you become a "deposit taking institution", or however it's phrased wherever you're from. There will of course be people willing to operate an exchange built around holding depositor's funds despite, that but if bitcoin gets too big and the government decides they want to shut you down they have a pretty trivial exercise to find you in violation of all kinds of regulations allowing them to bring the full force of their resources to bear on you.

At the same time there will be a point where the bitcoin economy is big enough to justify the expense of setting yourself up in a jurisdiction with a much less stringent regulatory environment, think traditional "off shore" banks. They are operating around the same restrictions we need to and get away with it just fine. Some of you may already live in places like that if you're lucky. The online nature of this complicates matters as well since if you're server is located in a haven jurisdiction that might be enough to keep you off the hook, or it might not, again it all really depends where you live and how serious your domestic regulatory agencies are about shutting you down.

All that being said I can't really envision a functional exchange allowing trades directly between participants that would work in a non-cumbersome way without holding deposits. Anything else would require a ton of work on the part of the exchange operator and rack up too many service charges with all the various banks and funds transfer services to really be useful.

So all that isn't super helpful in the end I suppose. I just wanted to make sure anyone contemplating using a software platform such as this (I'm one of them) is going into it with their eyes open if they weren't already, and this seems as good a thread as any to put it out there.

None of the above precludes developing the software, nothing wrong with that. As it should be, it's up to us as individuals to decide what we want to do with an available tool.

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January 01, 2011, 05:04:10 AM
 #47

Quote
...if bitcoin gets too big and the government decides they want to shut you down they have a pretty trivial exercise to find you in violation of all kinds of regulations allowing them to bring the full force of their resources to bear on you.

It is funny how in MMOs you could be banned anytime without an explanation. It is the same with govts. It shows they are in power. ;o

Quote
...it's up to us as individuals to decide what we want to do with an available tool.

I can guarantee you there will be the people who use it for bad karma matters and then the govt will use it as another excuse to hunt us down. It is sad that many of the great things are ruined by a jerk. At the end it is just a tool. It does no good nor bad. It is blind and it is simply an extension of the user.

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January 01, 2011, 05:48:57 AM
 #48

You can buy child porn and fund terrorists with US dollars.

That doesnt mean everyone accepting US dollars is a child pornographer or a terrorist.

Something like a trade association is needed so that if they try to pull a stunt like that it doesnt affect the whole economy. If it becomes big enough to worry about by then bitcoin will have its own political lobby and to take it down they would have to refuse campaign contributions . Well you get the idea...

 Cheesy



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January 01, 2011, 05:51:59 AM
 #49

It is if the big guy decides so. Since this is really one of the pioneering first ever things the govt got to choose based on its biased officials.(And most have trouble starting their computers)

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January 01, 2011, 07:22:31 AM
 #50

I'd like to collect the bounty with the open sourcing of bitcoin-central.net

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January 01, 2011, 09:27:30 AM
 #51

No account.



All that being said I can't really envision a functional exchange allowing trades directly between participants that would work in a non-cumbersome way without holding deposits. Anything else would require a ton of work on the part of the exchange operator and rack up too many service charges with all the various banks and funds transfer services to really be useful.

I would also like to have the system without accounts (it is easier to program and manage) but as you have mentioned above.

I was thinking having the entire exchange operating only in a darknet(only accessed from within i2p for example), and beyond the reach of any government. Since I am living and operating from within a totalitarian regime I must from the begining be out of government reach(and it will only be a matter of time before other governments attempt to destroy bitcoin, the easiest method to do so is shutdown bitcoin sites).

For items such as cash(Euro, USD), it would be impossible to trade with  someone without eventually learning at least their bank account number(for electronic transfers, so the two persons involved in the trade would learn the others account number) unless you meet face to face(or use the post, which is not practical in all environments).


Governments around the world will have so many excuses to attempt to stop bitcoin and a bitcoin based market. As you have said, terrorism, laundering, child pornography, financial legislation etc. the reasons do not matter, they will find some excuse. It is up to us to find a way to continue to thrive despite being illegal.

And in fact if a bitcoin market is successful it SHOULD have terrorists and criminals using it.

In a way you could describe our situation as that we are dead, and we just don't know it yet. But a good thing about being the dead is the living have no control over you anymore.

So, my original point is that this will from the begining be a kind of black market. It will at first be centralised on one machine(and become de-centralised as it grows, and spread across geographic boundaries) and can only be accessed through i2p. The servers actual physical location will be known only to it's direct operator(the person maintaining the physical machine). It could even be operating from inside North Korea (in theory) and there is nothing could be done to stop it.

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January 01, 2011, 10:17:17 AM
 #52

I think a lot of the software for what's needed for this is already written by FellowTraveler here: https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions/wiki.

Here's a use case to show how it would work:

By some payment method, trader Joe first buys $1000 worth of digital currency from a trusted currency issuer (say mtgox, so this is 1000 mtgoxUSD) who is operating on the same Open Transactions server as another whom Joe trusts who issues BTC backed currency (say mybitcoinBTC).  The Open Transactions server also functions as a marketplace so Joe can then sell his 1000 mtgoxUSD to someone else who owns some mybitcoinBTC at the prevailing market rate.  He then redeems these mybitcoinBTCs for real BTCs from mybitcoin.

Some neat things about this model:
  • Trade can be effectively conducted between any number of national and digital currencies in the same marketplace.
  • Multiple trading currency issuers along with separation of server and issuer is much more resilient, and it makes it much easier for new issuers to enter the market.
  • Open Transactions has lots of other potential uses, so will (hopefully) be actively developed and maintained.
  • "I would like to see the server side of OT become completely distributed as well." - FellowTraveler.  This would mean a distributed marketplace!
  • Brokers can easily offer margin accounts.
  • Basket currencies can be used in order to spread out risk.
  • "Soon: Stocks that pay dividends, Bonds that pay interest, and Collateralized Debt Obligations."
  • Privacy/anonymity when run over Tor or i2p.

Some work that still needs to be done:
  • Develop user friendly client software, and use OT's XmlRpc / HTTP transport to develop a pretty web service.  (I think FellowTraveler mentioned people have already started doing this.)
  • Research and openly disseminate payment methods, legal/regulatory issues, etc. in various jurisdictions to currency issuers.
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January 01, 2011, 10:44:09 AM
Last edit: January 01, 2011, 01:47:52 PM by grondilu
 #53

I think a lot of the software for what's needed for this is already written by FellowTraveler here: https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions/wiki.

Here's a use case to show how it would work:

By some payment method, trader Joe first buys $1000 worth of digital currency from a trusted currency issuer (say mtgox, so this is 1000 mtgoxUSD) who is operating on the same Open Transactions server as another whom Joe trusts who issues BTC backed currency (say mybitcoinBTC).  The Open Transactions server also functions as a marketplace so Joe can then sell his 1000 mtgoxUSD to someone else who owns some mybitcoinBTC at the prevailing market rate.  He then redeems these mybitcoinBTCs for real BTCs from mybitcoin.

...

We definitely should give this a try.  I unfortunately only have shell CGI on my webserver (no Perl, PHP, Python or stuff like that) so I can't do it myself.   But I'd be glad to help if someone wants to create a test-plateform.

PS:  However, I keep thinking we should avoid making a huge monolithic application for handling with everything.  Accounting is already taken care of by several FOSS project.  IMO, we need two applications : one for clearing and one for adjudication.

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January 01, 2011, 02:36:14 PM
 #54

I think a lot of the software for what's needed for this is already written by FellowTraveler here: https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions/wiki.
.......

After having a look my head exploded.

Now I must deeply research triple signed reciepts(and trueledger), Ricardian Contracts along with the general construction of open-transactions.

From what I have read it seems that this would be a good foundation to begin building with (if the documentation is not lying then it may be much more than the foundation).

So as I have said, I will begin on Monday, I will set up a dedicated server that can be accessed from i2p. I am unsure whether I should use OpenBSD or Ubuntu as the operating system for this server(which would you recommend? of course Ubuntu would be the easiest, but I assume OpenBSD would be more secure).

By Tuesday morning we should have something we can play with...I mean... test Wink.

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January 01, 2011, 04:20:44 PM
 #55

So as I have said, I will begin on Monday, I will set up a dedicated server that can be accessed from i2p.

Hum, would you consider using tor instead ?

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January 01, 2011, 04:31:39 PM
 #56

So as I have said, I will begin on Monday, I will set up a dedicated server that can be accessed from i2p.

Hum, would you consider using tor instead ?


You know, if I could access Tor from inside China I would, infact if the Tor project manages to solve the China bridge ip ban problem I would be happy to run it on both services but it doesn't and I can't.

Also Tor is a LOT slower.

So for the moment it will be on i2p(because that is what works here) and at some future point Tor may be added. I have a question, why do you prefer Tor (or is there some vulnerability of i2p that you are aware of?)

But for sure it will not be a regular website that can simply be blocked or shut down by any government.

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January 01, 2011, 04:59:41 PM
 #57

I'd like to collect the bounty with the open sourcing of bitcoin-central.net

Ok link us to the source and tell us under which license it falls. Smiley

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January 01, 2011, 05:42:18 PM
 #58

I'd like to collect the bounty with the open sourcing of bitcoin-central.net

Ok link us to the source and tell us under which license it falls. Smiley

This meets the definition of a currency exchange(does it qualify for the bounty?), I was under the impression that we were going for a more general exchange(stocks, commodity's, etc.) but I do not think we should stop there(with only bitcoin-central.net if it qualifies), but that it would be a component of a more generalised exchange system. I would certainly like to be able to use it for a ChineseRMB/BTC exhange.

From reading about open transaction bitcoin-central.net would be the software that operates as a digital currency issuer(digital gold currency for example, but could be USD or whatever) that would be traded on the exchange. At least I think that is the case open transaction I think is more generalised.

Anyway, more details on this(Open Transaction) as I learn on Monday.

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January 01, 2011, 06:30:42 PM
 #59

I have a question, why do you prefer Tor (or is there some vulnerability of i2p that you are aware of?)


Because I don't i2p very well.  I don't know how to install and run it.  Is there a debian package somewhere ?


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January 01, 2011, 06:59:24 PM
 #60

I have a question, why do you prefer Tor (or is there some vulnerability of i2p that you are aware of?)

I2P would be much easier to block than Tor if anyone cared about it. It uses a few "floodfill routers" to spread network information, so all you'd have to do to block I2P is keep track of the current floodfill routers and block them.

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January 01, 2011, 08:33:56 PM
 #61


I was thinking having the entire exchange operating only in a darknet(only accessed from within i2p for example), and beyond the reach of any government. Since I am living and operating from within a totalitarian regime I must from the begining be out of government reach(and it will only be a matter of time before other governments attempt to destroy bitcoin, the easiest method to do so is shutdown bitcoin sites).


To achieve this it might worth thinking about moving the market (and probably even bitcoin itself) to freenet http://freenetproject.org/. Non-traceable identities, web of trust, and the like do exist already.
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January 02, 2011, 04:14:47 AM
 #62


I was thinking having the entire exchange operating only in a darknet(only accessed from within i2p for example), and beyond the reach of any government. Since I am living and operating from within a totalitarian regime I must from the begining be out of government reach(and it will only be a matter of time before other governments attempt to destroy bitcoin, the easiest method to do so is shutdown bitcoin sites).


To achieve this it might worth thinking about moving the market (and probably even bitcoin itself) to freenet http://freenetproject.org/. Non-traceable identities, web of trust, and the like do exist already.

Freenet is a distributed datastore, not exactly a darknet and to the best of my knowlege doesn't have eepsites or hidden services as Tor or i2p have.

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January 02, 2011, 08:28:36 AM
 #63


To achieve this it might worth thinking about moving the market (and probably even bitcoin itself) to freenet http://freenetproject.org/. Non-traceable identities, web of trust, and the like do exist already.

Freenet is a distributed datastore, not exactly a darknet and to the best of my knowlege doesn't have eepsites or hidden services as Tor or i2p have.

There are indeed various hidden services that are built on this (darknet-like) datastore. There is no realtime communication though.
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January 02, 2011, 10:57:20 AM
 #64


There are indeed various hidden services that are built on this (darknet-like) datastore. There is no realtime communication though.

Thats the problem, no realtime communications, which makes running an exchange impossible.

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January 03, 2011, 12:16:24 PM
 #65

Davout just open sourced his code for bitcoin central. I think it qualifies for this bounty or if it doesnt why not?


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January 03, 2011, 12:51:21 PM
 #66

Davout just open sourced his code for bitcoin central. I think it qualifies for this bounty or if it doesnt why not?


Great, we can get started using it as a frontend.

On a related topic,
It does seem that Open-Transactions https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions/wiki would be a good backend to build our market.

I've spent the day setting up a machine (Ubuntu 10.10 server, this is an old desk top that I have, I will dedicate it to this project, it has about 60G of free space after the install on an encrpted LVM volume) and have built this and played around a little with it as well as trying to understand the theory.

OT is just a backend, it contains a transaction server and client (these are built on libraries, so you could build your own client, and there are bindings for a number of popular languages).

The transactions are kept as text files(one file per transaction), and they are mostly xml formated text that has been signed by the seller, the buyer and the transaction server.

The theory behind this is ricardian contracts and triple entry accounting.
http://iang.org/papers/ricardian_contract.html
http://iang.org/papers/triple_entry.html

Seems good( am I wrong, have I missed something?)

The crypto library that is used for all the signing is OpenSSL 1.0.0b or greater (not the default one in Ubuntu 10.10).

I have not been able to investigate the market element properly so I do not know whether it is suitable. This I will do tomorrow and hopefully have the server up for others to test by the end of the day.

I think a few days of testing should be enough to know whether this is the right tool for us. If it is then we only need to build a front end for the server and some easy to use clients.

Hopefully we will be able to use the work already done by davout, and we will have our own bitcoin based market exchange.



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January 04, 2011, 03:14:34 PM
 #67

I spent all day playing around with i2p trying to get it working,eventually I did and learned a lot in the process. Things such as using i2p is not easy. i2p is really slow and very often unreliable etc.

I am sure that a lot of these problems are to do with my poor quality, slow, and heavily restricted connection but it has made me reconsider running it on i2p from the beginning.

Apart from this I have gotten no other work completed, I feel like it was such a waste. I have also decided that I will only inform the forum when I have something to show them.

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January 10, 2011, 10:45:54 PM
 #68

Davout just open sourced his code for bitcoin central. I think it qualifies for this bounty or if it doesnt why not?

I have just sent whatever I pledged to davout since I am happy with his code. Just in case the community decides not to accept davout's bitcoin-central as the final project, could someone please delete my pledge from here? Thanks.
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January 11, 2011, 12:37:45 AM
 #69

I sent 5678.00 BTC, so I consider my pledge already spent.

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January 11, 2011, 12:39:33 AM
 #70

Wow davout I guess you have plenty of bitcoins now.  Would you like to buy a gold coin ?

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January 11, 2011, 12:41:21 AM
 #71

I sent 5678.00 BTC, so I consider my pledge already spent.

Thats definitely money well spent.
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January 11, 2011, 11:12:48 PM
 #72

I sent 5678.00 BTC, so I consider my pledge already spent.

Perhaps I should have sent my pledge to you instead...
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January 16, 2011, 02:45:03 AM
Last edit: January 17, 2011, 10:06:00 AM by fellowtraveler
 #73

Davout just open sourced his code for bitcoin central. I think it qualifies for this bounty or if it doesnt why not?


Great, we can get started using it as a frontend.

On a related topic,
It does seem that Open-Transactions https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions/wiki would be a good backend to build our market.

I've spent the day setting up a machine (Ubuntu 10.10 server, this is an old desk top that I have, I will dedicate it to this project, it has about 60G of free space after the install on an encrpted LVM volume) and have built this and played around a little with it as well as trying to understand the theory.

OT is just a backend, it contains a transaction server and client (these are built on libraries, so you could build your own client, and there are bindings for a number of popular languages).

The transactions are kept as text files(one file per transaction), and they are mostly xml formated text that has been signed by the seller, the buyer and the transaction server.

The theory behind this is ricardian contracts and triple entry accounting.
http://iang.org/papers/ricardian_contract.html
http://iang.org/papers/triple_entry.html

Seems good( am I wrong, have I missed something?)

The crypto library that is used for all the signing is OpenSSL 1.0.0b or greater (not the default one in Ubuntu 10.10).

I have not been able to investigate the market element properly so I do not know whether it is suitable. This I will do tomorrow and hopefully have the server up for others to test by the end of the day.

I think a few days of testing should be enough to know whether this is the right tool for us. If it is then we only need to build a front end for the server and some easy to use clients.

Hopefully we will be able to use the work already done by davout, and we will have our own bitcoin based market exchange.


Hello, I have just discovered this thread.

ABOUT MARKETS ON OT:

Right now I've got the markets coded and trading. You can put an offer on a market. There may be a hundred other offers.

You'll always get the highest bidder on the market if you're selling within that price range, or the lowest asking price if you're buying within that price range.

Your offer may trade many times against multiple other offers on the market, before it has finally completed processing.

After each trade, OTCron will drop a receipt into the respective inboxes for the 4 asset accounts involved.
(A trade involves, say, a buyer and seller bitcoin acct, and a buyer and seller WoW gold account. That's 4 accounts.)

When your offer has completed its terms, OTCron then removes it from the market.

You can configure your offer as a "day order" (date range) and/or as a "stop order" (only activate onto the market
when price reaches X level) and/or as a "limit order" (only allow trades at a certain price point) and/or as a
"fill-or-kill order" (each trade against a given offer must occur in minimum increments.)

OT Markets also support market granularity, meaning that the price of wheat on the 5000 bushel market might
be cheaper, per bushel, than the price of the same wheat on the 10 bushel market. This means that traders would
be able to profit by purchasing in bulk and then breaking up the wheat to be sold in smaller chunks (on smaller granularity
markets.)

You could also use the markets for trading currency baskets (since OT supports baskets).

Since each asset type on OT is based on a currency contract, you could even issue futures contracts and other options,
and use OT for trading futures on markets, or baskets of futures, etc etc.

The only problems I see are: (1) OT is very new and has not been tested with users in the real world. The version is v0.44.
I'm very proud of it, but it is brand spanking new, so you have to take that into account.  (2), the keysize is still restricted
to 1024. Since the software is still experimental, I haven't added any other keysizes yet, but that will be necessary if you are
using it for real trades, FYI. and (3) the markets are the newest instrument, and so the API basically just lets you add an offer
to a market. There's like one function in the API for markets.

It will work, but there are still not yet API functions for market introspection and for canceling offers.  You will need those.
Those will be easy to add though (it's just so new). I'm willing to add a few market functions when you need them -- I'm very
supportive of any developers that are using the OT API.  So contact me if you end up using the software and let me know
how it goes.

-FT
P.S.
FYI, I have recently released a new version of OT, along with a new article describing the Use Cases for the OT API:
https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions/wiki/Use-Cases

The article shows which OT API functions to call for each use case. For more
detailed info on each API call, check out this page:
https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions/wiki/API

You'll find the market offer API function towards the bottom of both pages.

If you want to play with it, there's the test wallet market interface. Test wallet instructions:
https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions/wiki/Test-Wallet-commands


co-founder, Monetas
creator, Open-Transactions
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