[ANN] DERO: DAG + Cryptonote + Bulletproofs + SSL + POW + Smart Contracts

[--Serena--]

CryptonightV7 Upgrade, possible?

Please see: https://forum.dero.io/t/dero-frequently-asked-questions/393

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[MagicSmoker]

Wait, how would you know if there are ASICs present if they are on a private pool or solo mining?
...

There is no bulletproof method to determine that exactly but as You look carefully in the network you will find natural growth. we monitor and correlate several parameters and most of the time you will find 80-90% of hashrate on public pools and remaining on private pools and most of the miners on slack/discord. when you see hashrate spikes/20-30 MHs you can see NH orders placed. Also you can see several NH order placers in slack/discord. But now there is no way you can stop NH. DERO hash growth has been proportional to numbers of members joined our slack/Discord/forum etc.
As of now we have around few hundred registered members on official DERO forum (https://forum.dero.io).  
You are with us from beginning and have seen my stand against NH and also DERO diff algo is not profitable for NH users and believe me we have got lots of request(in various forms that can no longer be called requests) to change that algo. Asics will not have any major advantage on DERO if they wana come/go unless they wana stay for long. And then as said.

An increase in the network hashrate from 10MH/s to 20MH/s is equivalent to 13500 additional RX 570 GPUs coming online. If that happened over the course of several months I'd believe it was organic growth, but not in the span of a few days. Also, network hashrate has dropped back down to ~10MH/s even more quickly than it ran up, but not instantaneously as happens with NH, so the obvious conclusion to me is that a bunch of ASICs focused on DERO for a couple of days then moved on.

That said, I really think that waiting until ASICs nuke your network is the wrong approach anyway. Now that it has been proven that CryptoNight is not, indeed, ASIC resistant, all coins that use the CN algo should modify it every few months to ensure Bitmain and other bad actors can't pull the same sleazy stunt of developing an ASIC in secret, mining the shit out of it for a few months, then dumping it on the public for a price that all but ensures it will never be profitable.

Mind you, I have nothing against ASICs and would actually much prefer everyone used them rather than inefficient GPUs, but the world we live in right now makes it difficult for people/companies in countries where the rule of law is preeminent (the US, EU, etc.) to compete against companies in countries we can't touch legally and which have no compunction about stealing your IP or reverse engineering it then churning out copies made by slave laborer children (can you say, "Foxconn"? I thought ya could).

[Inlite]

Wait, how would you know if there are ASICs present if they are on a private pool or solo mining?
...

There is no bulletproof method to determine that exactly but as You look carefully in the network you will find natural growth. we monitor and correlate several parameters and most of the time you will find 80-90% of hashrate on public pools and remaining on private pools and most of the miners on slack/discord. when you see hashrate spikes/20-30 MHs you can see NH orders placed. Also you can see several NH order placers in slack/discord. But now there is no way you can stop NH. DERO hash growth has been proportional to numbers of members joined our slack/Discord/forum etc.
As of now we have around few hundred registered members on official DERO forum (https://forum.dero.io).  
You are with us from beginning and have seen my stand against NH and also DERO diff algo is not profitable for NH users and believe me we have got lots of request(in various forms that can no longer be called requests) to change that algo. Asics will not have any major advantage on DERO if they wana come/go unless they wana stay for long. And then as said.

An increase in the network hashrate from 10MH/s to 20MH/s is equivalent to 13500 additional RX 570 GPUs coming online. If that happened over the course of several months I'd believe it was organic growth, but not in the span of a few days. Also, network hashrate has dropped back down to ~10MH/s even more quickly than it ran up, but not instantaneously as happens with NH, so the obvious conclusion to me is that a bunch of ASICs focused on DERO for a couple of days then moved on.

That said, I really think that waiting until ASICs nuke your network is the wrong approach anyway. Now that it has been proven that CryptoNight is not, indeed, ASIC resistant, all coins that use the CN algo should modify it every few months to ensure Bitmain and other bad actors can't pull the same sleazy stunt of developing an ASIC in secret, mining the shit out of it for a few months, then dumping it on the public for a price that all but ensures it will never be profitable.

Mind you, I have nothing against ASICs and would actually much prefer everyone used them rather than inefficient GPUs, but the world we live in right now makes it difficult for people/companies in countries where the rule of law is preeminent (the US, EU, etc.) to compete against companies in countries we can't touch legally and which have no compunction about stealing your IP or reverse engineering it then churning out copies made by slave laborer children (can you say, "Foxconn"? I thought ya could).

Totally agree ! The coins which switched to V7-algo are several times more profitable now than Dero. If you want to accumulate Dero, it is more efficient to mine Monero and to buy Dero on exchange. Guess who will stay on Dero mining ? Only Bitmain, because it has no ASICs for a new V7-algo yet. Why the hashrate is so high with so low Dero price ? Because ASICs are very efficient. The Dero community urgently needs the algo upgrade !

[Noruka]

The source code will be released soon

I downloaded from http://seeds.dero.io/alpha/ the wallet supports: dero_windows_amd64.zip and dero_windows_x86.zip, (no matter). Up to now, I have already (existing) DERO wallet which is not synchronized anymore. When I run, for example, dero-wallet-cli-windows-amd64.exe, then after "open existing wallet" option, I was asked about the wallet filename (default wallet.db). Unfortunately, I don't find the wallet.db file anywhere in my previous user-friendly skin DeroWallet_Win64_v0.0.3 folder.

Does it mean that, unfortunately, I completely lost all coins what I have in the previous wallet and I have to create a new fresh wallet in a new command-line skin? Or I can somehow recover and return my previous mining founds?

You need to select the option, "recover wallet using recovery seed (25 words)" from the wallet-cli menu. You should have written down your 25 word recovery seed when you first created your wallet using the old wallet-cli, but if you didn't there is a command to get the seed from it (I don't remember the exact command and I already deleted the old wallet-cli).

See my previous post where I went through much the same thing as you: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2525508.msg33402693#msg33402693

Pipe down man ffs, it's a few devs working their nuts off trying to get this straightened out for everyone.
I'm sure all the boring code you want to scrutinize will be available in good time.

Give them chance.

It's few developers cause they are NOT releasing the code as free software. That makes a crypto project weak and with high probability of failure.

Do you think someone smart would invest in a project that depends 100% of a closed group of people? So, if Serena and CaptainDero stop their activity the code will be not longer maintained thus the token living inside the blockchain would end up not valuable at all.

If this is the way they want to go about the source code then you are absolutely right. Usually nobody will touch this as it could die any moment.

[ph1102]

Wait, how would you know if there are ASICs present if they are on a private pool or solo mining?
...

There is no bulletproof method to determine that exactly but as You look carefully in the network you will find natural growth. we monitor and correlate several parameters and most of the time you will find 80-90% of hashrate on public pools and remaining on private pools and most of the miners on slack/discord. when you see hashrate spikes/20-30 MHs you can see NH orders placed. Also you can see several NH order placers in slack/discord. But now there is no way you can stop NH. DERO hash growth has been proportional to numbers of members joined our slack/Discord/forum etc.
As of now we have around few hundred registered members on official DERO forum (https://forum.dero.io).  
You are with us from beginning and have seen my stand against NH and also DERO diff algo is not profitable for NH users and believe me we have got lots of request(in various forms that can no longer be called requests) to change that algo. Asics will not have any major advantage on DERO if they wana come/go unless they wana stay for long. And then as said.

An increase in the network hashrate from 10MH/s to 20MH/s is equivalent to 13500 additional RX 570 GPUs coming online. If that happened over the course of several months I'd believe it was organic growth, but not in the span of a few days. Also, network hashrate has dropped back down to ~10MH/s even more quickly than it ran up, but not instantaneously as happens with NH, so the obvious conclusion to me is that a bunch of ASICs focused on DERO for a couple of days then moved on.

That said, I really think that waiting until ASICs nuke your network is the wrong approach anyway. Now that it has been proven that CryptoNight is not, indeed, ASIC resistant, all coins that use the CN algo should modify it every few months to ensure Bitmain and other bad actors can't pull the same sleazy stunt of developing an ASIC in secret, mining the shit out of it for a few months, then dumping it on the public for a price that all but ensures it will never be profitable.

Mind you, I have nothing against ASICs and would actually much prefer everyone used them rather than inefficient GPUs, but the world we live in right now makes it difficult for people/companies in countries where the rule of law is preeminent (the US, EU, etc.) to compete against companies in countries we can't touch legally and which have no compunction about stealing your IP or reverse engineering it then churning out copies made by slave laborer children (can you say, "Foxconn"? I thought ya could).

I also agree with all this!
I would only add one more thing... Now it is developer choice the way to go... Community or ASICs...

[CaptDero]

Wait, how would you know if there are ASICs present if they are on a private pool or solo mining?
...

SNIP.....
...............
.............................

Are you guys sure these asics are not re-programmable or next updated-batch will not support changed POW.

[MagicSmoker]

Are you guys sure these asics are not re-programmable or next updated-batch will not support changed POW.

I'm an EE and I can assure you if Bitmain, Baikal, etc., truly used ASICs - rather than FPGAs - then they absolutely cannot be changed after manufacture, not even to do something as simple as a logical invert on a single bit somewhere in the algo. This is because the functionality in an ASIC is purely hardware-based, not software, and unlike an FPGA, this functionality is - quite literally - burned into it. Now, an FPGA - Field Programmable Gate Array - is usually considered a stepping stone to an ASIC in that it implements functionality in hardware, but unlike the ASIC the hardware is an array of, well, programmable gates (actually, logic function blocks connected to an I/O matrix). This allows changing the algo in an FPGA even faster than one can load a different mining program on their desktop, but the tradeoff is that FPGAs are generally an order of magnitude or more slower than an ASIC and an order of magnitude higher in cost even if every last LUT and I/O pin is used (which is never the case).

Roughly speaking, FPGAs are nearly as flexible as a GPU, use less power for a given hashrate, but can cost nearly as much; ASICs are a one trick pony with the highest electrical efficiency but which are very cheap to produce (but very expensive to develop), relatively speaking.

The change that Monero made to go to v7 is fairly minor and the current ASIC design should be easy to modify, so, yes, the next batch of ASICs could very well do both the original CN algo as well as v7, but the existing batch of ASICs can only do the original CN algo and nothing else.

Hence why I said the only surefire way to block ASICs is to change the algo - even slightly - every few months. It would still be possible to make an FPGA miner, but those are far less of a threat to decentralization than ASICs for the reasons outlined above.

[Bhaal1]

Are you guys sure these asics are not re-programmable or next updated-batch will not support changed POW.

I'm an EE and I can assure you if Bitmain, Baikal, etc., truly used ASICs - rather than FPGAs - then they absolutely cannot be changed after manufacture, not even to do something as simple as a logical invert on a single bit somewhere in the algo. This is because the functionality in an ASIC is purely hardware-based, not software, and unlike an FPGA, this functionality is - quite literally - burned into it. Now, an FPGA - Field Programmable Gate Array - is usually considered a stepping stone to an ASIC in that it implements functionality in hardware, but unlike the ASIC the hardware is an array of, well, programmable gates (actually, logic function blocks connected to an I/O matrix). This allows changing the algo in an FPGA even faster than one can load a different mining program on their desktop, but the tradeoff is that FPGAs are generally an order of magnitude or more slower than an ASIC and an order of magnitude higher in cost even if every last LUT and I/O pin is used (which is never the case).

Roughly speaking, FPGAs are nearly as flexible as a GPU, use less power for a given hashrate, but can cost nearly as much; ASICs are a one trick pony with the highest electrical efficiency but which are very cheap to produce (but very expensive to develop), relatively speaking.

The change that Monero made to go to v7 is fairly minor and the current ASIC design should be easy to modify, so, yes, the next batch of ASICs could very well do both the original CN algo as well as v7, but the existing batch of ASICs can only do the original CN algo and nothing else.

Hence why I said the only surefire way to block ASICs is to change the algo - even slightly - every few months. It would still be possible to make an FPGA miner, but those are far less of a threat to decentralization than ASICs for the reasons outlined above.

Thanks a lot. a very good explanation.

[nuqqi]

Anyone know why all current exchanges for dero got the wallet offline and the ETA?

[--Serena--]

Anyone know why all current exchanges for dero got the wallet offline and the ETA?

I asked them to disable their wallets until the next update. It should not be long now (approx.1-2 days)

[baballuci]

I really liked Dero, but I have switched to mining Monero. Monero, Sumokoin, Haven, Stellite, all coins that switched are much more profitable now.

[Edwinc08]

CryptonightV7 Upgrade, possible?

I hope they do this quickly.

[std_io]

Guys, does https://www.southxchange.com enable DERO deposit? I can't register a new account. And https://stocks.exchange deposit is disabled.

[StonerStanley]

Guys, does https://www.southxchange.com enable DERO deposit? I can't register a new account. And https://stocks.exchange deposit is disabled.

No. Today or Tomorrow.

[korm]

I really liked Dero, but I have switched to mining Monero. Monero, Sumokoin, Haven, Stellite, all coins that switched are much more profitable now.

heavy will be good

[CaptDero]

Guys, does https://www.southxchange.com enable DERO deposit? I can't register a new account. And https://stocks.exchange deposit is disabled.

No. Today or Tomorrow.

Yeah they are in DERO wallet up-gradation process.

[The Crazy Miner]

How about Cryptonight Lite? Feels rewarding for rx 580's to hash at 1600hs. Also will drive back up the difficulty to help drive some more momemtum.

I have been hearing Cryptonight Heavy is poorly done.

V7 would be another great option. So my vote is for v7 or lite

[korm]

https://github.com/curie-kief/cryptonote-heavy-design

[CaptDero]

We respect your views, we have no problem in using any algo.
We are ready to upgrade but it would be great if we can increase network security and decrease impact on environment. There is nothing wrong in discussion.

Members pls submit your inputs:
Problem statement: Creating robust, secure, energy efficient and decentralized blockchain network.

For full thread pls see:
https://forum.dero.io/t/creating-robust-secure-energy-efficient-and-decentralized-blockchain-network/405/2

Pls consider following points before:

ASIC,FPGA,GPU,CPU mining pros/cons
Asics are more enerzy efficient.
GPU are for gamers and inefficient.
Asics brings centralization.
Asics are not available to everyone.
General available low costs asics in market, if any.
Can any algo/FPGA design help to solve the issue.
Is there any other design which can bring good solution.
Is forking every six months to combat asics feasible/good/bad.
What about hidden asics/technologies not open in market ?
Are hidden/undisclosed asics better for network than open/available asics/technology.
…
…
…

We are looking for future and would like to address this issue since beginning.
We are dedicated to the project and ready to invest time and resources to create one of the best blockchain technologies.
Looking back at the problem from 3-4 years in future.
Pls submit your views.

Its not technological problem alone as several users like @Magicsmoker commented.

Note: You need not register on forum and can reply here.

[korm]

If it's about saving energy, it's only POS.
ASIC do not solve the problem. Look at how much need for bitcoin mining.