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Author Topic: Is PrimeDice really (provably)fair?  (Read 32043 times)
Zaih
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August 26, 2013, 02:12:20 PM
 #21

Their verification page says "User is freely able to change server seed at their own will. which isn't true at all.


And why their secret hash remains same for a day and people have to wait for 24 hours to get it. They don't even save history of all bets on site. I am not a pro gambler, and people like me don't remember or check these kind of things. I thought it's my bad luck probably but after reading remember's thread I have some doubts about his site's legitimacy  and stunna need to clear it.



You can change the server seed at your own will.. Just bet 0 and it will change, or bet 0.0000001 and it will change. Were you even playing on primedice lol
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August 26, 2013, 02:15:43 PM
 #22

You still don't get it, the server seed can be pre-selected so that it always bets < a certain number. There recently a website that actually showed this technique in action.

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August 26, 2013, 02:16:28 PM
 #23

8 Loss streak on 50/50 proves nothing.

Nothing

Please have some more concrete proof of...well...any wrong doing...if you're going to make these kinds of accusations.



And don't get me wrong, I've sometmes questioned why the seeding is so random on PD when the solution is fairly easy, but your picture does nothing to say they are rigged.


I've seen 20 loss in a row on Just-Coin and you'd be stupid to say they are rigged.



You're gambling. You will lose.
People say, "The House Always Wins" for a reason.

Only 8 streak lose , I got 10 or 9 streak lose in 2x payout. haha. But to get more than 7 streak win never

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August 26, 2013, 02:18:48 PM
 #24

You still don't get it, the server seed can be pre-selected so that it always bets < a certain number. There recently a website that actually showed this technique in action.

You can change the client seed though? Eugh
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August 26, 2013, 02:28:21 PM
 #25


You can change the server seed at your own will.. Just bet 0 and it will change, or bet 0.0000001 and it will change.

It still will be generated by site no? and how that will help btw
Are you really that much stupid.

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August 26, 2013, 03:01:19 PM
 #26

You still don't get it, the server seed can be pre-selected so that it always bets < a certain number. There recently a website that actually showed this technique in action.

Yes, that was me with http://v20.nl/primedice/

However, changing the client-seed is now dead-simple on PD so the point made with that is invalid now.
Also you can now also bet above x AND below x, so if you think PD only creates numbers below 50? Bet 100 times your usual the amount and suddenly bet on below 50. (aka you always bet 1 BTC on above 50, now bet 100 BTC on below)

If a site is biased, the site operator would go bankrupt within a week because eventually people will find out and know how to break the cheating algorithm.

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August 26, 2013, 06:04:37 PM
Last edit: August 26, 2013, 06:19:46 PM by KingOfSports
 #27

Primedice has made +500 BTC in less then 10,000 BTC wagered, more like less then 5000 BTC since intro of PD2 a profit of 5-10%, nowhere near 1%. My honest to god belief is that they have software that monitors your bettting styles and thus if you bet constantly over or under, they give you a seed that will have less then expected results if you continue betting the same pattern. As much as Stunna is nice and all, I truly believe it is rigged as the profits made are just unrealistic. Started with a bankroll of roughly 300 BTC, and has made roughly 1800-1900 BTC on 88,000 BTC wagered, A HUGE amount greater then 1%. Bankroll sitting at 2200 last I checked. Also if you read the primedice thread, the user Mbitcoin has basically gone nonexistant, since winning the 200 BTC. I truly believe that Stunna or a friend of his won the 200 BTC to draw publicity for the site. It did work. There was no tx ever posted so we can't even assume 200 BTC was paid out. This is all theory, and to all I would advise using random.org or another software to randomly choose whether you pick high or low every time you roll. Change your client seed everytime. Also, there is no way, Stunna can operate on ONLY a 1% margin and accept no confirm deposits as well, any actuary can tell you that will result in -ROI long term (they are the people who determine what insurance rates you pay and all based on premiums paid and % of negative cash flow outcomes occurring).

I personally over 1000+ rolls on the old PD had a luck of less then 75% all betting 49.5%. I created other accounts and almost everytime within the first 10 rolls a streak of at least 5 losses at over 50.5 would occur. To answer the: "You just lost a ton to Primedice so you're complaining, I will reply with this: I have lost 3x as much on Just-dice as primedice and can say 100% just-dice is legit and fair. No question. The streaks occur and hell I have had a streak of 16 on just-dice, coinroll.it too. Both are fair, but Primedice is not.

Think about this: Dooglus stated they are suspectiable to theories of being rigged since a new server seed is generated EVERY roll. All other dice sites have followed coinroll.it's and just-dice's example of not changing it. So then let me ask this: With this thread and other complaints of not being fair, WHY do you not change it to remaining the same seed every roll Stunna?.

The answer: Because it's rigged based on patterns of the bettor and Stunna knows no one can truly prove that it is unless seeing the software themselves. Changing the client seed everytime or their patterns, isn't what dicers want to do, so thus the huge 3% or greater profits continue. So thus it won't be changed, even though all these complaints could easily go away if it was.

That is my stance on this thread's topic.

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August 26, 2013, 06:44:24 PM
Last edit: August 26, 2013, 07:07:30 PM by Stunna
 #28

Primedice has made +500 BTC in less then 10,000 BTC wagered, more like less then 5000 BTC since intro of PD2 a profit of 5-10%, nowhere near 1%. My honest to god belief is that they have software that monitors your bettting styles and thus if you bet constantly over or under, they give you a seed that will have less then expected results if you continue betting the same pattern. As much as Stunna is nice and all, I truly believe it is rigged as the profits made are just unrealistic. Started with a bankroll of roughly 300 BTC, and has made roughly 1800-1900 BTC on 88,000 BTC wagered, A HUGE amount greater then 1%. Bankroll sitting at 2200 last I checked. Also if you read the primedice thread, the user Mbitcoin has basically gone nonexistant, since winning the 200 BTC. I truly believe that Stunna or a friend of his won the 200 BTC to draw publicity for the site. It did work. There was no tx ever posted so we can't even assume 200 BTC was paid out. This is all theory, and to all I would advise using random.org or another software to randomly choose whether you pick high or low every time you roll. Change your client seed everytime. Also, there is no way, Stunna can operate on ONLY a 1% margin and accept no confirm deposits as well, any actuary can tell you that will result in -ROI long term (they are the people who determine what insurance rates you pay and all based on premiums paid and % of negative cash flow outcomes occurring).

I personally over 1000+ rolls on the old PD had a luck of less then 75% all betting 49.5%. I created other accounts and almost everytime within the first 10 rolls a streak of at least 5 losses at over 50.5 would occur. To answer the: "You just lost a ton to Primedice so you're complaining, I will reply with this: I have lost 3x as much on Just-dice as primedice and can say 100% just-dice is legit and fair. No question. The streaks occur and hell I have had a streak of 16 on just-dice, coinroll.it too. Both are fair, but Primedice is not.

Think about this: Dooglus stated they are suspectiable to theories of being rigged since a new server seed is generated EVERY roll. All other dice sites have followed coinroll.it's and just-dice's example of not changing it. So then let me ask this: With this thread and other complaints of not being fair, WHY do you not change it to remaining the same seed every roll Stunna?.

The answer: Because it's rigged based on patterns of the bettor and Stunna knows no one can truly prove that it is unless seeing the software themselves. Changing the client seed everytime or their patterns, isn't what dicers want to do, so thus the huge 3% or greater profits continue. So thus it won't be changed, even though all these complaints could easily go away if it was.

That is my stance on this thread's topic.

First of all, I think it is incredibly rude that you toss these accusations without taking into account certain possibilities. Let me break this all down for you.

  • My partner and I have personally been exchanging our own fiat for bitcoins to raise the max bet whenever we get an opportunity to do so in a quick and easy fashion, under my trust you can see I've bought nearly 100 coins from Zaih alone. PrimeDice simply hasn't made that much since we've launched pro or in total. In fact truthfully overall we are trailing below our expected profit.
  • If we have that sort of system you mention, you would be able to find patterns, crack them and clean our entire bankroll. I challenge you to do this.
  • We are able to accept 0 confirmation deposits as we only send cashouts once the deposit hits one confirmation, we encounter very rare double-spends if any at all. In fact I challenge you to go ahead and attempt to double-spend our site.
  • Server seed can be refreshed by the player, simply roll a zero bet, and client seed is very easy to change now
  • I think it is unrealistic that I'd shut down my site for over 24 hours for a publicity stunt on launch, as for that players whereabouts I don't know, I believe I still have him added on skype though from that ordeal though. I can attempt to contact him if that would settle your concerns.



The Answer: Ever since you've had a decent sized loss to the site ages ago you've had a personal vendetta against it. When people encounter losses they want to blame it on something, when you did end up losing to our site you almost successfully guilted me into returning your coins as well. Also once again I'll reiterate again that our overall profit is decently under 1%, I can prove this if necessary. I've heard some convincing theories, one of them was that we could be injecting our own seeds to manipulate results which is simply refuted by changing your client seed. As for your theories on patterns I don't even see that as a remotely valid argument, on that note plenty of people have profited off our site and continue to do so. The other day a JD bettor ruru went from -40BTC to 10btc profit within a short period of time, if we had patterns that did such things this would not be possible. If you had concerns you could have raised them privately with me at any point the past summer.

Honestly these accusations are getting out of hand and I resent them, people are claiming the free bonus and then losing it and saying the site is rigged. As for escrow losing 0.5 btc I'd be more than happy to calculate your rolls for you. I'm also disappointed that you'd go ahead and leave me negative trust after you simply had an unlucky roll. The cold hard simple fact of gambling is no matter what site you are gambling on in the long run you will see your balance plummet to zero due to the house edge. Gambling should be primarily entertainment purposes only, not only for the sake of making money. I also would like to please beg all of you to only bet what you are willing to lose, I'm not an evil person and I don't necessarily enjoy seeing people lose amounts greater than what they can afford to lose.

@Kingofsports, if you'd like to debate any of these points with me, please email me at stunna@primedice.com before publicly making claims. Because I can tell you right now with 100% conviction that every single one of your contentions is dead wrong.

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August 26, 2013, 06:53:40 PM
 #29

They may be out of hand but you know the way to get rid of them and yet you still won't do it. Stop changing the server seeds. You do that and boom all the allegations go away. Doesn't it surprise you that YOUR site is the only one ever seriously questioned on whether or not it is provably fair? I don't care about the coins I lost to your site, thats old history. However, I stick to this story and for someone to change their opinion based on the simple words of someone else, no matter how nice they are, would be out of character. It might come across as rude however I am allowed to state my opinion. I have not left you any negative trust, nor will I ever because my belief is theory.

Change your software to stop changing server seeds every roll and boom, all of these accusations go away because ONLY then is your software 100% PROVABLY FAIR.

Don't call people out for being rude or whatever when this case has been brought up by others highly trusted such as Dooglus and you fail to change it even after.

If I was a honest owner and saw a way to make my system 100% provably fair, no way of disputing being rigged or anything, since brute forcing sha256 is basically impossible, then would you change it? Yes, if you truly wanted to prevent any accusations from ever occurring. This lack in your provably fair method has been outted for over a month YET you do not change it. That and the whole MBitcoin and practically everytime I talk to someone about Primedice they mention "yeah the losing streaks there are really harsh", would definitely be reasonable enough evidence to definitely post an accusation here.



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August 26, 2013, 07:02:05 PM
 #30

They may be out of hand but you know the way to get rid of them and yet you still won't do it. Stop changing the server seeds. You do that and boom all the allegations go away. Doesn't it surprise you that YOUR site is the only one ever seriously questioned on whether or not it is provably fair? I don't care about the coins I lost to your site, thats old history. However, I stick to this story and for someone to change their opinion based on the simple words of someone else, no matter how nice they are, would be out of character. It might come across as rude however I am allowed to state my opinion. I have not left you any negative trust, nor will I ever because my belief is theory.

Change your software to stop changing server seeds every roll and boom, all of these accusations go away.

Don't call people out for being rude or whatever when this case has been brought up by others highly trusted such as Dooglus and you fail to change it even after.


Code:
function randomClientSeed() {
    $("#client-seed").val(Math.random());
    setTimeout(randomClientSeed, 100)
}
randomClientSeed()

In the mean time, use this script made by BRrules to randomize your client seeds. If you change your client seed there is no way rolls can be manipulated. You are able to change your server seed by simply re-rolling. We'd have to work in nonces to correct ourselves in your eyes.

I also never said you aren't allowed to state your opinion, I've just seen you time and time again call out my site without any evidence or solid points. It's one thing to claim that we aren't "provably fair" it is an entirely different thing to say that we are "rigged".

Yes, I understand it is a concern. On that point, Dooglus himself could be playing against just-dice and there is no way for any investor to know, you could argue this is why the site is has profited nearly half their expected profit. However, I personally believe Dooglus to be a person of strong integrity which is why I personally rule this out. I'm simply providing food for thought here, ultimately as people who run these casinos we do see strong profits for the amount of effort we are putting in and have zero motivation to attempt to ruin our names and sites to weasel people out of their money.

Hope I don't come off as too harsh, this has been weighing heavily on my mind for a while. I'm going to take a step back and re-assess this entire situation tonight.

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August 26, 2013, 07:23:45 PM
 #31

Oh I do change my client seeds every roll, its the only way playing on primedice is 100% provably fair, I just feel bad for those who don't.
Quote
Yes, I understand it is a concern.
You still have not addressed WHY you will not change it to not a new server seed everytime, only telling me I have been rude with this post. Change the software to not a new server seed everytime, and I'll delete every comment/accusation I ever made against you. Hell I'll even write a "I'm sorry for accusing you" email if need be. I barely play on Primedice anymore with my belief, but hell I feel awful for those being tricked while playing now.


I don't know too much about provably fair/roll generation but how would the rolls be different if the server seed stayed the same?

Wouldn't same secret + same server seed + same client seed = the same roll?
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August 26, 2013, 07:24:37 PM
Last edit: August 26, 2013, 07:42:24 PM by escrow.ms
 #32

As for escrow losing 0.5 btc I'd be more than happy to calculate your rolls for you. I'm also disappointed that you'd go ahead and leave me negative trust after you simply had an unlucky roll. The cold hard simple fact of gambling is no matter what site you are gambling on in the long run you will see your balance plummet to zero due to the house edge. Gambling should be primarily entertainment purposes only, not only for the sake of making money. I also would like to please beg all of you to only bet what you are willing to lose, I'm not an evil person and I don't necessarily enjoy seeing people lose amounts greater than what they can afford to lose.


Dude I doubt I had a unlucky roll at 90% winning odds.
I have played many many small games before on your site and checked pattern.

Ps: of course gambling should be for entertainment purposes only but result needs to be fair too.
Oh and I have just leave that feedback instead of making a scam report on you because I am giving you a chance clear my and other members doubts about your site. Prove that your site is 100% fair and i'll remove it.

Feedback is only visible to me and other members who trust me.
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August 26, 2013, 07:55:26 PM
 #33

I barely play on Primedice anymore with my belief, but hell I feel awful for those being tricked while playing now.

It's one thing to say "your provably fair system could be better" and quite another to outright state that people are "being tricked" without providing any evidence.

I would note however that with the script provided to change the client seed 10 times per second, the user has no way of checking the provably fairness at all.  The site can pick any client seed it likes and report it back to the user as the one they provided.  The user has no idea whether it's true or not since they pick 10 at random each second and instantly forget them.

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August 26, 2013, 08:25:25 PM
 #34

Are you saying you think you can't lose a 90%??  Theres a 10% chance of losing at 90%, a 1% chance of losing a 90% twice in a row, and a .1% chance of losing at 90% three times in a row.  With the thousands of people betting on dice sites some people are gonna lose.  If you give us your bet number we can all look it up and confirm the legitimacy.  If you truly believed it was rigged all you would have to do was change the roll over to roll under or vice versa.

I've played on SatoshiDice, BitBet, JD, and PrimeDice and while I do not trust the owners of some (or all Tongue) of these sites, they all have ways that a player can play on them 100% provably fair.  Simple speculation is not proof of anything.

I've wagered that 0.48 something btc 2 days ago, and i have played many free games after that
so i don't remember client/server seed nor Bet ID. Stunna needs to provide it along with my all bets history and prove that his site is 100% fair. (username: ems  user id 470)

Also I know there's chance of loosing money and i moved on after losing that money but i then saw this thread and I thought to post about it here.

Also this only happened when I wagered above 1$. When i was playing free bets it was normal like it should be.

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August 26, 2013, 09:35:29 PM
 #35

The only reason to change the seed every spin is to allow for instant check of the result without waiting 0-24h until the secret gets released. Or is PD still using clientseed - 24h server secret - one time roll secret?

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August 27, 2013, 06:01:51 AM
 #36

I have left a negative feedback on stunna's profile. I don't think his site is fair at all. I won't remove it until he proves that my bet was fair and tell me why i won small bets and lost it when i wagered a big amount at 90%.



Oh come on, that is just childish.

90% chance win, 10% chance loss.

1/10th chance to lose. You got unlucky.

Sometimes I play a lotto with a 1/10 chance to win and magically win. Sometimes I play a lotto with 1/10 chance to lose, and magically lose. All these lottos are without house edge too btw.
I assume you wouldn't complain if you had won a 10% roll, because well then you'd be a winner and not a loser.

Should we test primedice on provably fair? Yes, of course, just like every other site- but that doesn't mean we should not be respectful.

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August 27, 2013, 06:21:51 AM
 #37

I have left a negative feedback on stunna's profile. I don't think his site is fair at all. I won't remove it until he proves that my bet was fair and tell me why i won small bets and lost it when i wagered a big amount at 90%.



Oh come on, that is just childish.

90% chance win, 10% chance loss.

1/10th chance to lose. You got unlucky.

Sometimes I play a lotto with a 1/10 chance to win and magically win. Sometimes I play a lotto with 1/10 chance to lose, and magically lose. All these lottos are without house edge too btw.
I assume you wouldn't complain if you had won a 10% roll, because well then you'd be a winner and not a loser.

Should we test primedice on provably fair? Yes, of course, just like every other site- but that doesn't mean we should not be respectful.

I agree with HollowIP words that of course all user want fair system but you can't accused the site until you have strong solid proof that they are unfair

If the game have 90% win and 10% lose but you still lose 5 streak or more, that are not impossible to happen. There are still 10% chance to lose , not 0% chance to lose .

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escrow.ms
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August 27, 2013, 07:10:37 AM
 #38

I have left a negative feedback on stunna's profile. I don't think his site is fair at all. I won't remove it until he proves that my bet was fair and tell me why i won small bets and lost it when i wagered a big amount at 90%.



Oh come on, that is just childish.

90% chance win, 10% chance loss.

1/10th chance to lose. You got unlucky.

Sometimes I play a lotto with a 1/10 chance to win and magically win. Sometimes I play a lotto with 1/10 chance to lose, and magically lose. All these lottos are without house edge too btw.
I assume you wouldn't complain if you had won a 10% roll, because well then you'd be a winner and not a loser.

Should we test primedice on provably fair? Yes, of course, just like every other site- but that doesn't mean we should not be respectful.

I think you should read whole thread, every single comment and then post your reply.
and what the fuck you mean by being not "respectful".
HollowIP
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August 27, 2013, 07:12:47 AM
 #39

I have left a negative feedback on stunna's profile. I don't think his site is fair at all. I won't remove it until he proves that my bet was fair and tell me why i won small bets and lost it when i wagered a big amount at 90%.



Oh come on, that is just childish.

90% chance win, 10% chance loss.

1/10th chance to lose. You got unlucky.

Sometimes I play a lotto with a 1/10 chance to win and magically win. Sometimes I play a lotto with 1/10 chance to lose, and magically lose. All these lottos are without house edge too btw.
I assume you wouldn't complain if you had won a 10% roll, because well then you'd be a winner and not a loser.

Should we test primedice on provably fair? Yes, of course, just like every other site- but that doesn't mean we should not be respectful.

I think you should read whole thread, every single comment and then post your reply.
and what the fuck you mean by being not "respectful".

I did read the entire thread, and if you are wondering what I mean by respect you need only to refer to your last post. Thanks Smiley

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CyberDice - Best Bitcoin Dice Game


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August 27, 2013, 07:25:55 AM
 #40

I have a positive word for PrimeDice.
I tried several times to use the freeroll the website offer and with my method I reached 0.007 BTC many times, so imo PrimeDice is quite fair, or my strategy is very lucky.
Yes I know, you can expect giant losses on the automated bet but if you do low streaks you ca avoid them.

I give you an example. I usually go for these small strikes of 10 or 15 hits:
1.4x, roll over 10K bets +35% on wins and -25% on loss.
In this case these can happen:
You loose the first it and it ends
You start rolling good and it goes up to 30K
You roll it and you have 2 bad rolls going up with just 14K

So, I think what people need is a strategy to cover the losses.

I don't care about all those negative posts, I love PrimeDice and I can confirm I would play it all day long, and no, my account is not hacked for saying this.

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