Seriously, though, how would a libertarian society address global warming?

[ascent]

Since CO2 doesn't cause Cancer, contribute to Heavy Metal Toxicity, Produce Coal Dust or Asbestos does anyone know what this guy in on about?

It causes global warming. You're the poster child for global warming deniers, and this is why the libertarian notion that the environment will be fine under a libertarian system is fallacy. Libertarians contend that there should be enough freedom for people to do as they wish on their own watch, without intervention. Given that there will always be deniers, and those who choose to wear blinders (often to gain financial advantage), then things will inevitably go south.

Please read this post I made a little ways above for more information: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=25626.msg320869#msg320869

[TheGer]

Looks like I've caused a Global Warming Cultist to out himself.  My friend you are intellectually lazy if you cannot be bothered to do proper information gathering on the issue.  

Even the people who started this Global Warming farce to make money of Carbon Credits have changed the term to Climate Change now because of being so embarrassed by the facts and being outed as fools and liars.

Get with the time bro your compatriots have left you behind.

climategate-for-dummies: http://www.infowars.com/climategate-for-dummies/

Since CO2 doesn't cause Cancer, contribute to Heavy Metal Toxicity, Produce Coal Dust or Asbestos does anyone know what this guy in on about?

It causes global warming. You're the poster child for global warming deniers, and this is why the libertarian notion that the environment will be fine under a libertarian system is fallacy. Libertarians contend that there should be enough freedom for people to do as they wish on their own watch, without intervention. Given that there will always be deniers, and those who choose to wear blinders (often to gain financial advantage), then things will inevitably go south.

Please read this post I made a little ways above for more information: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=25626.msg320869#msg320869

[ascent]

Looks like I've caused a Global Warming Cultist to out himself.  My friend you are intellectually lazy if you cannot be bothered to do proper information gathering on the issue.  

Even the people who started this Global Warming farce to make money of Carbon Credits have changed the term to Climate Change now because of being so embarrassed by the facts and being outed as fools and liars.

Get with the time bro your compatriots have left you behind.

climategate-for-dummies: http://www.infowars.com/climategate-for-dummies/

I see you've jumped on that wagon.

[AyeYo]

LOL He just used infowars as a source. hahahahha  Chem trails!!!

[ascent]

Even the people who started this Global Warming farce to make money of Carbon Credits have changed the term to Climate Change now because of being so embarrassed by the facts and being outed as fools and liars.

Honestly, the only people clinging to your vision of Global Warming as being a sham are those who want an excuse to continue to pollute. Back when those emails were being released, here's what really happened:

1. Scientists realized the actions of a few would cast a huge blow to the process of education on the subject, and they realized that those who never wanted to believe in it in the first place, such as yourself, would use it as a means to vindicate themselves.

2. Scientists, climatologists, and in general, everyone in the scientific community knew that all the data still pointed to Global Warming.

3. The term Climate Change was adopted due to bad PR, nothing else.

4. Those who stood a chance to influence policy change in such a way that they could continue to pollute and thus improve their bottom line took advantage of the negative publicity with regard to Global Warming at the time to further their goals, by engaging in various campaigns. Conservatively oriented talk radio jumped on the bandwagon as well, further undermining the support for Global Warming.

5. Individuals such as yourself, eager to be on the bandwagon listed in point number 4 above, still cling to the misinformation which was heavily spun at the time.

6. Those who have a job to do with regard to actual research on Global Warming (err, Climate Change), know it's global warming, and continue to do their work. And the scientifically literate politicians are pretty much in solid agreement over global warming as a real issue that needs to be dealt with.

In other words, your fantasy that some bad PR from some two years ago has rendered Global Warming false is just that, a fantasy. And you have the nerve to accuse me of not keeping up with facts.

[ascent]

TheGer,

You should be thankful that I'm willing to write out so many posts to you. I hope you've had a chance to read the one I made above.

Global Warming is a scientific topic. Here's some genuine advice regarding scientific topics: immerse yourself in the scientific literature to better understand it. The academics aren't out to fool you. The peer review process works. So, if you want to discuss the topic and have your opinion respected, then don't restrict your information gathering on the subject to organizations such as FOX news or other such media outlets.

There is plenty of data on the subject. Try and stay with respected scientific sources.

[TheGer]

Lol Respected ofcourse means those sellout scientists who tout what they are told to by those pushing the Global Warming Scam.  Hence the whole Climategate scandal where they were caught lying and falsifying data.  Sorry I'm not going to pander to your GW propaganda.  Your House of Cards has already fallen I don't know why you bother to defend it.

I've seen and heard both arguments, and seen lies exposed on only one side of that argument(crippling it).  Can you guess which?  You may keep your Hockey Stick.  Oh and you may keep your Darwin Awards as well.

[3phase]

TheGer,

You should be thankful that I'm willing to write out so many posts to you. I hope you've had a chance to read the one I made above.

Global Warming is a scientific topic. Here's some genuine advice regarding scientific topics: immerse yourself in the scientific literature to better understand it. The academics aren't out to fool you. The peer review process works. So, if you want to discuss the topic and have your opinion respected, then don't restrict your information gathering on the subject to organizations such as FOX news or other such media outlets.

There is plenty of data on the subject. Try and stay with respected scientific sources.

I haven't jumped on any train , but still, the supposed cause-and-effect relationship between human activity and climate change (global warming if you want to call it) is nothing more than a conjecture at the moment. I've read tens of articles in the past few years that make huge assumptions to provide emotional-response reasoning for their undoubtfully true natural findings (ending up in a human-made climate change conclusion).

I don't doubt climate change; I see it happening.

But it seems to me that TheGer's and Ascent's positioning are two sides of the same coin and both do not hold the answer: One goes into denial and will look for anything that will confirm his ideas that the whole thing stinks, and the other goes into self- and collective- blaming of the human race for something that is, IMHO, far bigger than what our mistakes of the last 200 years could have ever caused (thus blame that is unfair).

One is led to not care about the facts which should be obvious, the other is led to carry this burden in him for ever, being that even as a global community we could not possibly change the slightest thing on a planetary scale.

Both will be disappointed and disillusioned in the end.

In the end, it's our passion for learning and finding the whys and the hows that will reveal what is the truth of the matter. And time of course, the tamer of all things (according to an ancient Greek epithet assigned to Time).

I hope I am contributing something into this.

[TheGer]

When you intellectual elite discover that Temperature increase causes more CO2 to be produced, not the other way around you'll be on the road to recovery.  Throughout the history of this planet rises in temperature are followed by CO2 increases.  The Oceans and Land exchange CO2 constantly with the Atmosphere at a level dwarfing what Humans produce by magnitudes, so please stop peddling your propaganda so you can cash in on all those Carbon Credits(otherwise known as the Global Tax).

Now will you guys go put your Big Boy Pants on?

[Jaime Frontero]

When you intellectual elite discover that Temperature increase causes more CO2 to be produced, not the other way around you'll be on the road to recovery.  Throughout the history of this planet rises in temperature are followed by CO2 increases.  The Oceans and Land exchange CO2 constantly with the Atmosphere at a level dwarfing what Humans produce by magnitudes, so please stop peddling your propaganda so you can cash in on all those Carbon Credits(otherwise known as the Global Tax).

Now will you guys go put your Big Boy Pants on?

ho-hum.

http://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

i believe you're looking for #12...

[TheGer]

Lol that site is a joke.  Full of pseudoscience, misrepresented facts, and inferences based on falsified data.

Thank you for posting it lol.

[myrkul]

The Planet, like the Market, is a self-correcting system.

If we cause enough change, it will become uncomfortable to live here. At that point, we either leave, or die off sufficiently that equilibrium is restored. Problem solved.

[Jaime Frontero]

Lol that site is a joke.  Full of pseudoscience, misrepresented facts, and inferences based on falsified data.

yeah.

because everybody knows that actual, working climate scientists are all liars, and getting rich off a secret blockchain started by al gore.  have i mentioned that he's fat yet?

uh-huh.

[Jaime Frontero]

The Planet, like the Market, is a self-correcting system.

If we cause enough change, it will become uncomfortable to live here. At that point, we either leave, or die off sufficiently that equilibrium is restored. Problem solved.

wouldn't it be nice if the concept of "self-correcting system" included the option to recognize and correct for on-coming disasters, in a non-political fashion?

[myrkul]

It does. The individuals who recognize this oncoming disaster will curtail their damage, and encourage others to do so as well. Those who agree will avoid the ones who don't, and if enough agree, disaster will be averted. Or it won't. Either way, Planet keeps on chugging, regardless of what we do. It's not 'Save the Planet!'. it's 'Save the Status Quo!!'

[Jaime Frontero]

It does. The individuals who recognize this oncoming disaster will curtail their damage, and encourage others to do so as well. Those who agree will avoid the ones who don't, and if enough agree, disaster will be averted. Or it won't. Either way, Planet keeps on chugging, regardless of what we do. It's not 'Save the Planet!'. it's 'Save the Status Quo!!'

there's a problem with that.

The individuals who recognize this oncoming disaster will curtail their damage, and encourage others to do so as well.

those who profit the most...

1.) don't care, because they've got theirs.
2.) are in the upper 1% of wealth-holders on the planet, and want more.
3.) are in the upper 1% of political power-holders, and won't let go of that.
4.) are willing to bribe, steal, kill, lie and cheat to keep their power and wealth.  and
5.) won't get caught, since they write the laws.

did you know that there was actually a law proposed, banning the ownership of geiger-counters (and other, benign detection devices) in New York?

http://www.villagevoice.com/2008-01-08/news/nypd-seeks-an-air-monitor-crackdown-for-new-yorkers/

it's a stacked deck, and your "individuals who recognize this oncoming disaster" have too little power.

i also note, again:

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=13344.0

so far (and i'm still looking) there is no way for a site-moderator to recognize when this kind of software is being used.  but there will be.

[myrkul]

Remind me again what the title of the thread is?

I wasn't talking about current New York. I know how screwed up the current situation is.

In a libertarian/AnCap society, everyone would have equal opportunity to do whatever they want, and no ability to force people to do or not do anything. Which includes sell Geiger counters and other monitoring equipment.

[Jaime Frontero]

Remind me again what the title of the thread is?

Seriously, though, how would a libertarian society address global warming?

in a very real sense, i take that question to mean:

How would a libertarian society deal with those who are willfully damaging our lives and the planet we all share, for their own profit?

...because global warming is no longer an idle speculation.  and the immense resources devoted to the denial industry (and it is an industry) simply cannot be looked at as an exercise in free-market capitalism.

[myrkul]

'k. So, What's with

4.) are willing to bribe, steal, kill, lie and cheat to keep their power and wealth.  and
5.) won't get caught, since they write the laws.

that?

What does that have to do with a Libertarian society?

[Jaime Frontero]

'k. So, What's with

4.) are willing to bribe, steal, kill, lie and cheat to keep their power and wealth.  and
5.) won't get caught, since they write the laws.

that?

What does that have to do with a Libertarian society?

nothing.  but those kinds of people exist in all societies, and always will.  the cream (that is, expressed neutrally) will rise to the top:  the toughest, the most able, or those born with the most advantages, etc.  and that will be the same in any society, from communist to libertarian.  whoever is good enough or smart enough to beat the system, wins.

Disraeli and Stalin were both perfect examples - street punks and infighters.

so again...

How would a libertarian society deal with those who are willfully damaging our lives and the planet we all share, for their own profit?

because that's really the question.

so that's the answer i want.  it should translate to any more-or-less free society.