Criminal Lawsuit against BFL in Germany [in progress]

[gmaxwell]

I can't think of one good reason it should have been in allowed

It's absolutely impossible to prevent. By condoning it, no one is in denial that it happens and can be more on the alert for it. It's also quite analogous— or at least carries similar harms— to plain sockpuppeting, which is also generally impossible to prevent.

One way that we can address misconduct created through socks and stolen accounts is to hold our community to higher levels of evidence.  There is a lawsuit? Oh really?  Post some [potentially redacted] docs "or GTFO".

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[ProfMac]

One way that we can address misconduct created through socks and stolen accounts is to hold our community to higher levels of evidence. 

Yes.

[greyhawk]

I like how OP has been collecting names and adresses of these 34 "victims". No doubt to threaten, provoke and aggro with the mighty sword "Blade of ClassAction +2".


Reminder that class action does not exist in Germany.

[Red_Evil]

34 german customers gave me their identity and order IDs so far. None of them did receive any unit from BFL.

SHUT Up nobody give you anything fucking TROLL !!!!  attention !!! probably identie Thief

[pikeadz]

I hate BFL, but I think this is funny.  I have visions of a german guy in an interpol uniform with a little blue light on his car roof knocking on BFL's doors and just being waved away like a mosquito.  It's a US corporation.  Pound sand, Germany.

Its not that funny.. A german court can confiscate every product that BFL ships into the EU.

That people will risk the purchases from everyone who lives in Europe..

So that would be the Germans screwing other Germans.  Not prosecuting BFL.  How does that nip the problem in the bud, exactly?

Oh sorry.. I forgot that most are from the us....  There are germans in europe.. but not everyone in europe is german.. like there are dogs in the US but not everyone in the US is a dog....

Aw I hurt your feelings.   I'm sorry.  There, now let's move on and I'll rephrase so you can (hopefully) understand.

"That would be the Germans screwing everyone in the EU, not BFL.  How exactly does that nip the problem in the bud?"

[Schrankwand]

I hate BFL, but I think this is funny.  I have visions of a german guy in an interpol uniform with a little blue light on his car roof knocking on BFL's doors and just being waved away like a mosquito.  It's a US corporation.  Pound sand, Germany.

Its not that funny.. A german court can confiscate every product that BFL ships into the EU.

That people will risk the purchases from everyone who lives in Europe..

So that would be the Germans screwing other Germans.  Not prosecuting BFL.  How does that nip the problem in the bud, exactly?

Oh sorry.. I forgot that most are from the us....  There are germans in europe.. but not everyone in europe is german.. like there are dogs in the US but not everyone in the US is a dog....

Aw I hurt your feelings.   I'm sorry.  There, now let's move on and I'll rephrase so you can (hopefully) understand.

"That would be the Germans screwing everyone in the EU, not BFL.  How exactly does that nip the problem in the bud?"

The idea is to screw BFL for further business in Europe. It takes way too long though.

Apart from that, if someone launched a fraud investigation and someone was actually sentenced while in absence (Which can happen) then a European arrest warrant would ensure that he gets nowhere near anywhere in the EU anymore and will be arrest in any country that has extradition treaties with the European Union countries.

To be honest, the EU warrant is the most insane tool I know of. Look at Julian Assange. I have seen German people dragged from the UK to Spain because of their name, since there was an EU arrest warrant in Spain.

Of course, it all cleared up. In Sevilla.


Another variation is that you might create a small whirlwind that is... well coming over to the US. BFL's ideas about contract laws are already iffy and completely wrong, from what I have learnt about them. So probably, they might get into trouble at some time. Justicia is moving slowly, but she rarely stops moving once set in motion...

[SLok]

You know you have to wait till your place in line comes up, no? And that you agreed to that, and at the pop-up which you had to click to maintain or cancel your order because changed power usage you chose "agree", like you agreed to the "no more refunds once we start delivering?"

I really really hope BFL tries to use this defense, because it will make it that much easier LOL.

Indeed, it will make it just easier for BFL in the EU. He might think he has a chance in a criminal court but (if it gets there which I doubt) as these cases are filed as a private matter since there is no criminal intent he has proof of, and the buyer on more than one occasion agreed to the terms, the best he can get is his money back through a private law court case, which he already could have had, if he had paid attention the last months and had clicked "cancel".

[YokoToriyama]

BFL has more holes then swiss cheese, for what it takes these people to make package and ship their product they could be in
china and we would not know.. for all you germans out there, the people bashing you are either in on it, work for bfl, or just
someone with no idea how business works so don't get offended; BFL's is the biggest joke of a company ever made.

[Red_Wolf_2]

BFL has more holes then swiss cheese, for what it takes these people to make package and ship their product they could be in
china and we would not know.. for all you germans out there, the people bashing you are either in on it, work for bfl, or just
someone with no idea how business works so don't get offended; BFL's is the biggest joke of a company ever made.

Nah, some of us are calling out the fact the account that posted originally looks rather dicey on its own.

[tinus42]

I wonder why none of the American customers hasn't sued them yet. Especially the guys who ordered Minirigs. That's some serious money.

[Schrankwand]

Indeed, it will make it just easier for BFL in the EU. He might think he has a chance in a criminal court but (if it gets there which I doubt) as these cases are filed as a private matter since there is no criminal intent he has proof of, and the buyer on more than one occasion agreed to the terms, the best he can get is his money back through a private law court case, which he already could have had, if he had paid attention the last months and had clicked "cancel".

Agreeing to terms that have been deemed unlawful does not have any consequence for the customer, if we are talking B2C business. As far as I know, this also works this way in the US.

So, you can also agree to someone getting 40% on a loan, it will still be thrown out by a court. That is what customer protection laws are there for.

[WuLabsWuTecH]

Even if they are violating german laws, what's a german court going to do about it?  Seize all of their assets in german banks?  All of a grand total of 0 euros???

You might have a lawsuit, but you'd have to file in the US!!!  It's like me taking you to trial in an American Court?  What's the judge here going to do for me when you're over there???

[Loredo]

Even if they are violating german laws, what's a german court going to do about it?  Seize all of their assets in german banks?  All of a grand total of 0 euros???

You might have a lawsuit, but you'd have to file in the US!!!  It's like me taking you to trial in an American Court?  What's the judge here going to do for me when you're over there???

You think British Petroleum cared much about the civil claims and criminal fines from the USA Gulf oil spill?  Relative to their cash flow, little more than an irritation.  Sure, they paid, them, but what corporations worry about in trials is:

-> Bad publicity.  A verdict against BFL would be splashed all over on these forums and by BFL's competitors.  That's a real cost;

-> Follow up (copy-cat) actions in other jurisdictions.

When a company is selling 90% sizzle and 10% steak, they really can't afford anything that turns the heat down.

[SgtSpike]

I wonder why none of the American customers hasn't sued them yet. Especially the guys who ordered Minirigs. That's some serious money.

Probably because the miners still make their value back in less than 30 days.  If anyone successfully sued Butterfly Labs, what would they get?  A full refund, at best?  A partial refund at worst?  So would you rather have $2,500, or a miner than can make $2,500 in 25 days, and then continue making money afterward?

[dogie]

I wonder why none of the American customers hasn't sued them yet. Especially the guys who ordered Minirigs. That's some serious money.

Probably because the miners still make their value back in less than 30 days.  If anyone successfully sued Butterfly Labs, what would they get?  A full refund, at best?  A partial refund at worst?  So would you rather have $2,500, or a miner than can make $2,500 in 25 days, and then continue making money afterward?

Have you heard of punitive damages?

[SgtSpike]

I wonder why none of the American customers hasn't sued them yet. Especially the guys who ordered Minirigs. That's some serious money.

Probably because the miners still make their value back in less than 30 days.  If anyone successfully sued Butterfly Labs, what would they get?  A full refund, at best?  A partial refund at worst?  So would you rather have $2,500, or a miner than can make $2,500 in 25 days, and then continue making money afterward?

Have you heard of punitive damages?

Sure.  I very seriously doubt any punitive damages would be awarded in this case.  It wouldn't make sense if every investment gone awry would be awarded punitive damages.

[erk]

Most of this thread is FUD to try and gain a competitive advantage for other ASIC miners.

Realistically, the only laws I have seen BFL possibly break so far, that they could actually get in trouble for, is the refusal to refund, as Kansas, where BFL are located, has some reasonably strict consumer laws about that kind of thing. But you would have to file a complaint in Kansas, not Germany!

[Kouye]

BFL probably lost all the order/shipping data for their german customers, and are trying to restore it through getting input here.
So if you have not ordered anything from BFL and live in germany, I would advise to send your shipping address and a fake order screenshot to carol.

 

[Michail1]

Strange that the original poster has perfect English, then perfect German.  Later posts are typed in broken English.
Sold/hacked account for FUD?

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Looks like Carol had a sex change. She changed her profile from male to female.

Also, Carol seemed to registered on a lot of sites on Nov. 4, 2010, as I've already shown.

http://stagesupport.infobright.com/forums/member.php?15062-carolstreet444

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And, all I've found to date have zero activity. If this account was sold, how did Carol go about doing it if she/he was active on this forum until recently? Did Carol just wake up one day and say to herself(?) that I'm going to sell my Bitcoin account today?

I don't know if sales of accounts were available back in November 2010, now do I know if there's a practice of people purposely registering on sites across the board with the hope of selling age accounts in the future.

I do know that Carol was the 2113th person to sign up to BT, opting to not participate on here until a few short weeks ago.

Something is not adding up, but I can't put my finger on it.

I can surmise this: If I didn't want heat on an entity of which I control, I would claim via a sockpuppet that a lawsuit is in the works directly at my company, therefore nobody else should bother suing them stemming from the same arena. Case in this point, Germany.

The closest I've seen this happen before was when Josh was investigating BF Labs, and as people expressed that they're thinking about coming to KC to check the place out, Josh put a halt to it stating in no uncertain terms there was no need, for he was just across the street and will (and did) investigate with camera in hand. Sure enough, there was nothing to see there, just a now closed restaurant and Section 8 housing.

To this day, that address was never explained, and still is used on BitPay's site as BFL's main address.