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Author Topic: [BitFunder] Ukyo.Loan - Paying 0.05% daily.  (Read 63830 times)
mgio
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October 26, 2013, 05:01:50 PM
 #141

I see that Ukyo stopped paying dividends. If he is putting every penny he gets into redeeming rather than paying dividends, then it's a good thing and he is on the right track.

As I said before, I'm prepared for less than face value and no dividends rather than dragging this any longer than necessary.

We all know the situation is bad, and I hope Ukyo would come clean and tell how it really is, so we can all decide what we want to do next. I can see people are already getting rid of bonds for 75% of face value which means many start to lose hope.

I am saving asset list from BitFunder every few days. I haven't yet had time to analyze movements. I hope to see some address constantly receiving shares, Ukyo's account that has redeemed bonds. But of course it would be best if Ukyo could tell the numbers, number of redeemed shares so far, number of shares requested to be redeemed, the number of redeemed shares by day, income from his projects (BitFunder, Weexchange etc), other BTC holdings that can be liquidated.

With the numbers we could analyze estimated time to redeem, risks and other.

I also hope information from anyone who got their bonds redeemed. How many, when requested redeeming, when got the BTC. mpr20rt can you tell that?

I wonder if it is a better to pay a percentage of all redemption requests in the queue rather than go in order. The way it is now it means some people will get all their money back and others will get totally screwed. People don't know whether they are going to get 100% or 0% which creates a panic causing people to sell at a huge loss. For example, if everyone in the queue knew they would currently get, say at least 90% then the market could stabilize.


I think also that dividends should be paid in the meantime. The money is still going to the investors. Lack of dividends is just going to cause everyone to dump shares! That said, ukyo has been 2 days late several times before. I am not jumping to the conclusion that dividends have stopped unless I hear from him.
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Rannasha
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October 26, 2013, 05:03:28 PM
 #142

TradeFortress has announced that the Ukyo debt owned by BTCInvest is not being honored, and that as well as the lost bitcoins it's making necessary extra complications & verification requirements in the liquidation process for BTCInvest's 147 investors.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=135157.msg3412811#msg3412811

Please could you respond. Thanks.
Ukyo was not expecting to have to liquidate perhaps 1000 coins or more in such a short amount of time. I imagine it will take months to work his way through the queue of redemption requests.

Well, he could've expected a massive amount of redemption requests when he announced the blocking of US customers on BitFunder and the verification requirement for the rest of the world.
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October 26, 2013, 05:16:38 PM
 #143

I wonder if it is a better to pay a percentage of all redemption requests in the queue rather than go in order. The way it is now it means some people will get all their money back and others will get totally screwed. People don't know whether they are going to get 100% or 0% which creates a panic causing people to sell at a huge loss. For example, if everyone in the queue knew they would currently get, say at least 90% then the market could stabilize.


I think also that dividends should be paid in the meantime. The money is still going to the investors. Lack of dividends is just going to cause everyone to dump shares! That said, ukyo has been 2 days late several times before. I am not jumping to the conclusion that dividends have stopped unless I hear from him.

Yes, I agree that it could be better to pay a percentage of all redemption requests in the queue. That's why I'm asking for numbers so we can decide for ourselves. The holders of bonds should vote what to do.

Your argument on dividend assumes that he can afford to redeem almost 100% of face value and dividends for as long as there are unredeemed bonds. I hope it's true but I don't really know. If there is a risk he can't afford to do that, then I don't care about dividends at all. In that case the only thing I care about is the amount of BTC he gives for every redeemed bond.

If I get my bonds redeemed faster with no dividends rather than risking it and possibly receiving a lot less than face value later, then I vote for no dividends.
mgio
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October 26, 2013, 05:20:07 PM
 #144

TradeFortress has announced that the Ukyo debt owned by BTCInvest is not being honored, and that as well as the lost bitcoins it's making necessary extra complications & verification requirements in the liquidation process for BTCInvest's 147 investors.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=135157.msg3412811#msg3412811

Please could you respond. Thanks.
Ukyo was not expecting to have to liquidate perhaps 1000 coins or more in such a short amount of time. I imagine it will take months to work his way through the queue of redemption requests.

Well, he could've expected a massive amount of redemption requests when he announced the blocking of US customers on BitFunder and the verification requirement for the rest of the world.

Yes, I'm sure he knew that was going to happen. But the fact that he had to block US customers I'm sure was a big surprised to him.

I'm guessing he was faced with an ultimatum: block US customers by the end of the month or get shut down.

If it was up to him he would have shut off US customers so quickly.

mgio
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October 26, 2013, 05:31:47 PM
 #145

I wonder if it is a better to pay a percentage of all redemption requests in the queue rather than go in order. The way it is now it means some people will get all their money back and others will get totally screwed. People don't know whether they are going to get 100% or 0% which creates a panic causing people to sell at a huge loss. For example, if everyone in the queue knew they would currently get, say at least 90% then the market could stabilize.


I think also that dividends should be paid in the meantime. The money is still going to the investors. Lack of dividends is just going to cause everyone to dump shares! That said, ukyo has been 2 days late several times before. I am not jumping to the conclusion that dividends have stopped unless I hear from him.

Yes, I agree that it could be better to pay a percentage of all redemption requests in the queue. That's why I'm asking for numbers so we can decide for ourselves. The holders of bonds should vote what to do.

Your argument on dividend assumes that he can afford to redeem almost 100% of face value and dividends for as long as there are unredeemed bonds. I hope it's true but I don't really know. If there is a risk he can't afford to do that, then I don't care about dividends at all. In that case the only thing I care about is the amount of BTC he gives for every redeemed bond.

If I get my bonds redeemed faster with no dividends rather than risking it and possibly receiving a lot less than face value later, then I vote for no dividends.

Well to put things in perspective, dividends cost him 1 btc a day. The total value of all issued shares is 2,000 btc. Even if he pays dividends for a month while he redeems, that's only 30 btc. And he isn't paying dividends on the redeemed shares of course. I don't think that extra couple of btc will slow him down too much. But stopping dividends without any explanation will cause everyone to try to request redemption. As long as there are still dividends there will be some people that will hold on to shares making the redemption queue shorter.

Regardless of what he decides to do, I think we need to get more information regarding his economic situation and planned timeframe. As long as bitfunder and weexchange are still active he still has money. Nothing short of a personal bankruptcy will stop him from redeeming shares. There are shareholders with large enough holdings that I'm sure they would sue in the situation where it looked like he totally defaulted.
Bananery
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October 26, 2013, 06:19:57 PM
 #146

Well to put things in perspective, dividends cost him 1 btc a day. The total value of all issued shares is 2,000 btc. Even if he pays dividends for a month while he redeems, that's only 30 btc. And he isn't paying dividends on the redeemed shares of course. I don't think that extra couple of btc will slow him down too much.

As long as bitfunder and weexchange are still active he still has money.

1BTC is 100 redeemed shares every day. We don't know at what rate he redeems them. Income from Bitfunder is lately just barely more than 1BTC per day. I don't know how much he gets from Weexchange, I think it's not much either.

We need numbers, but if no paying dividends makes him redeem twice as fast, say at the rate of 2BTC per day or 200 bonds per day, then I don't care about dividends. Take into consideration that trading at BitFunder will most likely decrease a lot once all Americans and those who don't want to verify will be out. They're still there and are driving most of trading that has been going on lately.
mgio
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October 26, 2013, 06:47:51 PM
 #147

Well to put things in perspective, dividends cost him 1 btc a day. The total value of all issued shares is 2,000 btc. Even if he pays dividends for a month while he redeems, that's only 30 btc. And he isn't paying dividends on the redeemed shares of course. I don't think that extra couple of btc will slow him down too much.

As long as bitfunder and weexchange are still active he still has money.

1BTC is 100 redeemed shares every day. We don't know at what rate he redeems them. Income from Bitfunder is lately just barely more than 1BTC per day. I don't know how much he gets from Weexchange, I think it's not much either.

We need numbers, but if no paying dividends makes him redeem twice as fast, say at the rate of 2BTC per day or 200 bonds per day, then I don't care about dividends. Take into consideration that trading at BitFunder will most likely decrease a lot once all Americans and those who don't want to verify will be out. They're still there and are driving most of trading that has been going on lately.

I would hope he is redeeming far faster than that. 2 BTC a day means 1,000 days to redeem them all, or almost 3 years!!

I was guessing the rate would be 10 times that amount at least.
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October 26, 2013, 07:30:17 PM
 #148

In my opinion Ukyo should reduce interest to 0.01% daily and start redeeming at a rate of at least (but obviously more, if possible) the rest of the daily interest money (0.80 BTC/day). This would drive the bond price up, which would allow people in a hurry to sell at market with a lower loss than they face right now, and would still give reason for people not in a hurry to hold bonds.
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October 26, 2013, 09:54:09 PM
 #149

he should continue paying dividends as described in the original contract - anyone saying otherwise is acting out of self interest.
It was made clear in the original contract that redeeming shares from Ukyo may take some time  if assets needed to be liquidated etc you should never have assumed you could request redemption and receive it straight away.
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October 26, 2013, 10:09:00 PM
 #150

he should continue paying dividends as described in the original contract

Just like he should be redeeming shares "in reasonable time", which he says he is and I believe that he continues to do so. The question being discussed here is - assuming the contract is somehow broken, i.e. he is not able to either pay the interest or redeem the shares, that is the solution I believe to be less harming to those holding the bonds.



mgio
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October 26, 2013, 11:32:36 PM
 #151

I hope ukyo posts in this thread within the next couple of days. Especially if dividends continue to be late.

In the meantime it makes sense to start gathering whatever information we can about bitfunder, weexchange, and ukyo if legal action ends up being necessary. I'm still giving ukyo the benefit of the doubt and still a long way from pursuing legal remedies but it makes sense to look into what would need to be done if if comes to that in the meantime.

Looking at the asset list there are people with 10s of thousands of shares which equates to 10s of thousands of dollars and I'm sure those people would go to great lengths to reclaim their money. I'm surprised we don't see more of them posting here.

Also, it would be great if people who get their shares redeemed post here and state how roughly how long they were waiting.

Has anyone added up the shares on the asset list and seen how many are still outstanding?
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October 26, 2013, 11:55:58 PM
 #152

TradeFortress has announced that the Ukyo debt owned by BTCInvest is not being honored, and that as well as the lost bitcoins it's making necessary extra complications & verification requirements in the liquidation process for BTCInvest's 147 investors.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=135157.msg3412811#msg3412811

Please could you respond. Thanks.
Ukyo was not expecting to have to liquidate perhaps 1000 coins or more in such a short amount of time. I imagine it will take months to work his way through the queue of redemption requests.

Well, he could've expected a massive amount of redemption requests when he announced the blocking of US customers on BitFunder and the verification requirement for the rest of the world.

Yes, I'm sure he knew that was going to happen. But the fact that he had to block US customers I'm sure was a big surprised to him.

I'm guessing he was faced with an ultimatum: block US customers by the end of the month or get shut down.

If it was up to him he would have shut off US customers so quickly.




But this is completely a guess based on nothing correct? The fact that we have no idea why he decided to block US customers is a testament to how untrustworthy he is. As far as I'm aware ukyo is currently managing in some where around thousands of bitcoins from "investors" or people using his site yet he is only able to communicate once every few weeks. Why people would continue to fill this guys wallet is beyond me.
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October 27, 2013, 12:19:19 AM
 #153

But this is completely a guess based on nothing correct? The fact that we have no idea why he decided to block US customers is a testament to how untrustworthy he is. As far as I'm aware ukyo is currently managing in some where around thousands of bitcoins from "investors" or people using his site yet he is only able to communicate once every few weeks. Why people would continue to fill this guys wallet is beyond me.
QFT
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October 27, 2013, 01:06:00 AM
 #154

Yes, I'm sure he knew that was going to happen. But the fact that he had to block US customers I'm sure was a big surprised to him.

I'm guessing he was faced with an ultimatum: block US customers by the end of the month or get shut down.

If it was up to him he would have shut off US customers so quickly.

This is probably a good read:

http://irc.radiumsoup.com/freenode/labcoin/logs/index.php?up=ukyo&d=2013-09-27#msg9737

or

http://irc.radiumsoup.com/freenode/labcoin/logs/index.php?d=2013-09-27#msg9737 for the full conversation.

He was evaluating the option to block US users and start verification already on end of September.

mgio
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October 27, 2013, 02:39:49 AM
 #155

But this is completely a guess based on nothing correct? The fact that we have no idea why he decided to block US customers is a testament to how untrustworthy he is. As far as I'm aware ukyo is currently managing in some where around thousands of bitcoins from "investors" or people using his site yet he is only able to communicate once every few weeks. Why people would continue to fill this guys wallet is beyond me.
QFT

If he was contacted by the SEC and/or other US govt entities it is almost certain that he is not allowed to talk about what is going on. At least presently. In fact he has said exactly that.

I'm sure he is already working overtime just dealing with dealing with all bit finder/weexchange issues.
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October 27, 2013, 02:58:13 AM
 #156

If he was contacted by the SEC and/or other US govt entities it is almost certain that he is not allowed to talk about what is going on. At least presently. In fact he has said exactly that.

I'm sure he is already working overtime just dealing with dealing with all bit finder/weexchange issues.

I don't believe that. What you are telling me is that some secret government agency knocked on his door and threatened him in some way to shut down his site and he cant say anything about the confrontation?? What is this soviet russia?

By reading the chats by ukyo provided by the guy above its clear he knew exactly what was going to happen. He had planned to block US customers even before being contacted by anyone from the US government.

My complete guess as to what really happened with bitfunder is someone from SEC came to his door and carefully explained to him how he is breaking several US security laws that have been in place for decades and the penalties he would face if he didn't comply. It looks like ukyo never had any intention to comply with SEC and I think this is the real reason he hasn't said anything. His main goal it seemed with this site was to earn himself some bitcoins. Complying with SEC would definitely cost some money to do correctly and I think this could be why he doesnt want to. It is easier to just ignore SEC and continue with the semi-autonomous flow of bitcoins to his pocket.


Quote


Ukyo
    the issue with crowd funding
    is that once its funded, and a scam has been found. the money is spent
    no one gets it back
    and the govt has pissed off citizens wanting to know how they could have allowed it

He forgets to mention that with each one of these scams that has been found on his site, he makes a massive profit off the ridiculous trading fees
mgio
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October 27, 2013, 07:36:08 AM
 #157

In the current world, it would be pretty much impossible for anyone to set up a legitimate security exchange that complies with SEC regulations. Look how much trouble it is for the winklevoss twins just to create an ETF. And every single security would have to be registered with the sec. Not one of them would even come close to qualifying. IPOs are incredibly time consuming and expensive.

So don't blame ukyo. Anyone with half a brain should have realized bitfunder could never be legitimate from the start. The only thing that saved us was that we were too small for the sec to care before
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October 27, 2013, 09:37:48 AM
Last edit: October 27, 2013, 09:58:36 AM by Bananery
 #158

Changes in asset list between October 24th and 27th.

2 new addresses. 10 addresses disappeared, all had few bonds. Bonds total 200,000 on both dates.

Addresses on 24th: 154.
Addresses on 27th: 146.

Largest gains: 1018, 742 and 600 bonds. All other small, less than 100 bond movements.

Looks like nearly all or all movements due to trading. Redeemed bonds during this time: zero to few hundreds.

I'll give Ukyo some time and analyze the data again sometimes in 3-4 week time.
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October 27, 2013, 04:19:02 PM
 #159

3 and soon 4 days late with the dividend on your loan now ukyu, when will it be fixed ?

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October 27, 2013, 09:26:38 PM
 #160

3 and soon 4 days late with the dividend on your loan now ukyu, when will it be fixed ?

Ha, you still care about dividends, when there is a high risk you lose a large portion of your investment?
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