[BitFunder] Ukyo.Loan - Paying 0.05% daily.

[SOSLOVE868]

At the moment I see missing dividends. I understand that Ukyo might be busy these days. I just want to keep track of them:

2013-10-06
2013-10-10

The divs are not missing, he just paid 2x the next day.

He is right, Ukyo is not paid for this two days...

[1713491785]

1713491785

[1713491785]

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[1713491785]

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[chstls]

At the moment I see missing dividends. I understand that Ukyo might be busy these days. I just want to keep track of them:

2013-10-06
2013-10-10

Ukyo has been paid for the two missing day

[SOSLOVE868]

At the moment I see missing dividends. I understand that Ukyo might be busy these days. I just want to keep track of them:

2013-10-06
2013-10-10

Ukyo has been paid for the two missing day

Noticed , great job ~~~

[thy]

I think it is pretty obvious that redemptions are not occuring right now. If Graet and Ukyo had funds ready for redemption, they would be buying their shares at bitfunder itself for <0.01 instead of redeeming yours for 0.01. The only option left for those who wish to redeem the shares at face value is to wait. I have a considerable amount of BTC in those shares, but I am aware that there is no way to redeem them any time soon at face value, and I also do not want to redeem them with a loss.

First it dosen't really matter if they have the funds in hands or not, they have already taken way to long time to redeem the shares and they should have given better updates to what progress there making in the redeem process, they are clearly in violation of there contracts and should have bought up the nessesary btc by now if there short or have taken up other (btc) loans(without clauses to redeem premature of when they expect to be able to payback the loan) to cover the situations with redeem requests that hasent been fulfilled yet.
Secondly im pretty sure they at least have some funds avaliable and both get more each day, if they use that to buy up stocks under face value instead of doing what they can to redeem shares they are violation there contracts even worse...

I think it is pretty obvious that redemptions are not occuring right now. If Graet and Ukyo had funds ready for redemption, they would be buying their shares at bitfunder itself for <0.01 instead of redeeming yours for 0.01. The only option left for those who wish to redeem the shares at face value is to wait. I have a considerable amount of BTC in those shares, but I am aware that there is no way to redeem them any time soon at face value, and I also do not want to redeem them with a loss.

Wait how long? If we don't sell by November 1, and then the issuer still doesn't come through, then we're really screwed.

I'm aware that the circumstances going on right now are pretty exceptional. But it seems to me that a contract is still a contract, and if they don't have enough cash on hand to redeem, they should use their credit card or get a traditional bank loan if they have to in order to get the funds to cover the redemptions. After all, it's not like most people are suddenly for no reason deciding they want to redeem (although even in that case, the redemption requests should still be fulfilled). In this case, most redemption requests are as a result of the policy changes Ukyo himself implemented, where he created all these new verification requirements and told US users and non-verified users that they can only sell until Nov. 1, and that all their BTC and shares will be transferred out of their accounts on Dec. 2. So that imposes a certain deadline on the process. When Ukyo made his announcement, he should have anticipated the US and non-verified bondholders needing to redeem, and should have secured the necessary financing. I'm worried about the precedent that could be set here. Otherwise, what is to stop someone else in the future from opening an exchange and raising funds by selling bonds, then telling the majority of investors they have only a few weeks to get out, not redeeming bonds, and forcing people to sell back at a loss just to meet the exchange operator's arbitrary deadline? I realize that these are trying times, and a situation that Ukyo probably didn't envision when he originally issued the bonds, so I do not mean to accuse Ukyo of planning to scam investors or anything. But the result seems to be the same, and I worry about the precedent if a bond issuer is allowed to just ignore the redemption clauses in their contracts like this. I'm not really happy with explanations from Ukyo like "the expectation was to use the funds for other things."

Graet I am less sure about; I don't know if Graet was involved in planning the policy changes at BitFunder or not (if he was involved in planning the policy changes, then IMHO he should have obtained the necessary financing to fulfill bond redemption requests as well). Actually, my opinion is that if a bond issuer does not have enough cash on hand to redeem a bond when requested, he should always get the cash and fulfill the redemption request, even if he has to take out another loan to do it, not just in this case. Otherwise what's the value of a bond if issuers are not going to redeem it when requested? But it just seems worse in this case if Ukyo makes these policy changes without obtaining the cash to cover redemption requests on his own bond. And then the lack of communication is the worst thing; it would be different if an announcement were made that bond redemption requests would be fulfilled on October 25 (for example). At least then investors could be sure that they will be able to get out by redeeming before the Nov. 1 deadline. I don't know if anyone else has heard anything from Graet, but I sent him a PM and never got a reponse back. I'm sure he is probably getting tons of PMs these days and may be overwhelmed. But if he doesn't want to respond to tons of PMs from individual investors asking the same questions, the solution is to post an announcement in the forum with basic information like 1) the future plans for the assets he is managing and 2) how he will be handling redemption requests, or even a short one-line announcement like "I am still checking on options; I will be making an announcement about my assets and redemption requests by (particular date before November 1)".

I totally agree to your post. Ukyo should have been prepared and should have had most if not all btc's needed for redeems ready, then if not all requests could be handled the first day, all should at least have been solved within a day or two when he would be more certain of the exact amounts needed

Great havent been logged into bicointalk after the 11 oct (under his own name at least)
Ukyo seems to have been in every day but havent made a single post after 12 oct.
None of them have aswered my PM's or fullfilled my redeem requests.

[GeoRW]

Ukyo said a week or so ago in the IRC chat, that there is a very long list of people waiting for redemption and he does not have the money. So redemption is not happening any time soon. I sold all of my shares with a small loss at that time, cause I have no interest in verifying my account. If you are holding large amounts that you can't sell without huge losses you just need to continue holding them and hope that the site goes well so Ukyo is able to pay the interest.

[mgio]

Ukyo said a week or so ago in the IRC chat, that there is a very long list of people waiting for redemption and he does not have the money. So redemption is not happening any time soon. I sold all of my shares with a small loss at that time, cause I have no interest in verifying my account. If you are holding large amounts that you can't sell without huge losses you just need to continue holding them and hope that the site goes well so Ukyo is able to pay the interest.

What are the US citizens who will no longer be able to trade in a week or so supposed to do?

Looking at the asset list, I'm the largest individual holder of ukyo.loan. There is no way I could sell all my shares in a week even if I wanted to. I wish Ukyo would say something here so we know what is going on. Second hand reports of something that might have been said on IRC is not a good way to communicate with your shareholders. I'm hoping that at least I can remain in the redemption queue after the end of the month even if my account remains unverified.

[gannicus]

Ukyo said a week or so ago in the IRC chat, that there is a very long list of people waiting for redemption and he does not have the money. So redemption is not happening any time soon. I sold all of my shares with a small loss at that time, cause I have no interest in verifying my account. If you are holding large amounts that you can't sell without huge losses you just need to continue holding them and hope that the site goes well so Ukyo is able to pay the interest.

What are the US citizens who will no longer be able to trade in a week or so supposed to do?

Looking at the asset list, I'm the largest individual holder of ukyo.loan. There is no way I could sell all my shares in a week even if I wanted to. I wish Ukyo would say something here so we know what is going on. Second hand reports of something that might have been said on IRC is not a good way to communicate with your shareholders. I'm hoping that at least I can remain in the redemption queue after the end of the month even if my account remains unverified.

A few options:

1. Sell at loss

2. Find someone to hold them for you

3. Find someone to buy them from you for 0.01

4. Find someone to buy them from you for a lower price than 0.01 with the promise of paying you the difference whenever Ukyo redeems it.

Each one has its risks, I would personally do a combination of all of them, except for the 3rd which seems to be the hardest. I can myself do the 2nd and 4th for you but you have no reason to trust me so you probably won't.

[ADgordo]

Ukyo said a week or so ago in the IRC chat, that there is a very long list of people waiting for redemption and he does not have the money. So redemption is not happening any time soon. I sold all of my shares with a small loss at that time, cause I have no interest in verifying my account. If you are holding large amounts that you can't sell without huge losses you just need to continue holding them and hope that the site goes well so Ukyo is able to pay the interest.

What are the US citizens who will no longer be able to trade in a week or so supposed to do?

Looking at the asset list, I'm the largest individual holder of ukyo.loan. There is no way I could sell all my shares in a week even if I wanted to. I wish Ukyo would say something here so we know what is going on. Second hand reports of something that might have been said on IRC is not a good way to communicate with your shareholders. I'm hoping that at least I can remain in the redemption queue after the end of the month even if my account remains unverified.

Why do you believe you won't still be able to redeem after Nov 1?

"Users will be able to withdraw holdings and Bitcoins from their BitFunder accounts before and after November 1, 2013."

"As of December 2, 2013, BitFunder will initiate a transfer from the BitFunder site to the respective issuer(s) of any remaining shares held by any users that BitFunder knows to be U.S. persons or who did not obtain "Verified" status by December 1, 2013, and will provide the issuer(s) with the public bitcoin address associated with the user account. After transfer, each user will need to work with the issuer(s) with respect to the future treatment of the shares."


Yes this situation sucks and Ukyo has been very very odd in his refusal to reply (assuming he can) but I'm holding on to the shares until they are fully redeemed by Ukyo.  Same applies to Graet.

[mgio]

Won't the recent rise in bitcoin price make it harder for Ukyo to cover the redemption requests? I'm assuming that he has converted the bitcoins from the bond sales into fiat in order to invest it. Now he has to buy back twice as much in terms of fiat as he invested to but back the bitcoins to redeem the bonds. In the meantime it will be harder for him to cover the dividends as Bitfunder's profits in terms of bitcoin will drop as the price of securities drop to balance

I'm not trying to scare anyone. I just think these are reasonable concerns that people should be aware of.

I'm interested in hearing what Ukyo has been investing in. It's hard to find many opportunities that will

I'm assuming a bit of the money has gone into Bitfunder itself.

[Bananery]

Yes, we're really fucked here. Ukyo is an idiot and actually we who invested are also idiots because we didn't ask for any proof.

His loan is not covered, he lied especially about this "This loan is not tied to the success or failure of any business, investments, or opportunities."

It is tied to the success of bitfunder 100%. Now that exchange rate of bitcoin is growing like crazy, his ability to redeem all the shares becomes smaller by day. If it shoots to 500-1000 usd then forget about your bitcoins, they are gone. He'll never be able to pay 1-2 million dollars, he is almost broke.

Ukyo must come clean about his holdings and redeem as many shares as possible as fast as possible. Stop paying dividends mr rich guy and put every fucking penny you get to redeeming. Sell all your BTC investments and redeem as much as you can.

I am prepared for getting less than face value and no dividends for some time. Once Ukyo tells as what the real situations is, we'll vote what to do.

You don't want this to drag into the future, because the longer it takes for Ukyo to redeem, the less you'll get in the future, believe me!

Same thing with Graet.Loan, I'll write a post there too soon.

[Ukyo]

I have been, and will continue to redeem shares. The list is long, but it is being worked through.

[Progressive]

I have been, and will continue to redeem shares. The list is long, but it is being worked through.

Thanks for your response.

[mpr20rt]

Got my shares redeemed without any hassle! The trouble I guess is getting through to him. I bet his being bombarded by PMs on all fronts..

[xkrikl]

I have been, and will continue to redeem shares. The list is long, but it is being worked through.

Thanks for information.
Are you going to redeem all shares before the deadline of Oct 31st?
If not, will you keep a way out also for those with accounts not veried on WeExchange?

[mgio]

I have been, and will continue to redeem shares. The list is long, but it is being worked through.

Thanks for information.
Are you going to redeem all shares before the deadline of Oct 31st?
If not, will you keep a way out also for those with accounts not veried on WeExchange?

This is what I want to know too. If my shares can not be redeemed by Oct 31, can I still receive dividends and withdraw the coins earned in the meantime?

And I know I won't be able to buy or sell, but will I be able to use the transfer feature to transfer the shares to another party (to someone with a verified account) if I wish to get rid of the shares that way? Or will that be disabled to?

[jonsi]

Last dividents received on 2013-10-23 11:43:00... Is this right?

[ffwong]

Last dividents received on 2013-10-23 11:43:00... Is this right?

Yes, that is what I saw too, until this moment.

[TsuyokuNaritai]

TradeFortress has announced that the Ukyo debt owned by BTCInvest is not being honored, and that as well as the lost bitcoins it's making necessary extra complications & verification requirements in the liquidation process for BTCInvest's 147 investors.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=135157.msg3412811#msg3412811

Please could you respond. Thanks.

[Bananery]

I see that Ukyo stopped paying dividends. If he is putting every penny he gets into redeeming rather than paying dividends, then it's a good thing and he is on the right track.

As I said before, I'm prepared for less than face value and no dividends rather than dragging this any longer than necessary.

We all know the situation is bad, and I hope Ukyo would come clean and tell how it really is, so we can all decide what we want to do next. I can see people are already getting rid of bonds for 75% of face value which means many start to lose hope.

I am saving asset list from BitFunder every few days. I haven't yet had time to analyze movements. I hope to see some address constantly receiving shares, Ukyo's account that has redeemed bonds. But of course it would be best if Ukyo could tell the numbers, number of redeemed shares so far, number of shares requested to be redeemed, the number of redeemed shares by day, income from his projects (BitFunder, Weexchange etc), other BTC holdings that can be liquidated.

With the numbers we could analyze estimated time to redeem, risks and other.

I also hope information from anyone who got their bonds redeemed. How many, when requested redeeming, when got the BTC. mpr20rt can you tell that?

[mgio]

TradeFortress has announced that the Ukyo debt owned by BTCInvest is not being honored, and that as well as the lost bitcoins it's making necessary extra complications & verification requirements in the liquidation process for BTCInvest's 147 investors.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=135157.msg3412811#msg3412811

Please could you respond. Thanks.

Why would TradeFortress say that? Shares are being redeemed, just at a very slow rate. Just look at this thread, and the announcements from ukyo regarding that.

Ukyo was not expecting to have to liquidate perhaps 1000 coins or more in such a short amount of time. I imagine it will take months to work his way through the queue of redemption requests.
And dividends have been late many times before but they always catch up. There is no evidence that he has defaulted.

And is TradeFortress implying that BTCInvest holds ukyo.loan shares and ukyo.loan also holds BTCInvest? That seems a little funny.