[BitFunder] Ukyo.Loan - Paying 0.05% daily.

[thy]

Whats the amount of bitcoins owed for ukyo loan? Did the loan run under ukyo personally alone or was a company involved? And do you think that the stock-like thing of selling shares will have an impact legally?

I believe it's 2000btc.

Ah... not bad... together with the 6k from weexchange its a big amount.

200 000 shares at 0.01 btc each so yea 2000 btc is the correct amount (plus 1.5% monthly interest so about 90 btc more from around dec 1 upp till now). Ukyo and Graet probably have some crossinvestments in each others loan thou and ukyo have some of his own stocks bought back so it's not the full 2000 btc outstanding.

[1714040458]

1714040458

[mgio]

Whats the amount of bitcoins owed for ukyo loan? Did the loan run under ukyo personally alone or was a company involved? And do you think that the stock-like thing of selling shares will have an impact legally?

I believe it's 2000btc.

Ah... not bad... together with the 6k from weexchange its a big amount.

I thought only 2k was owed for the missing weexchange funds?

[SebastianJu]

Whats the amount of bitcoins owed for ukyo loan? Did the loan run under ukyo personally alone or was a company involved? And do you think that the stock-like thing of selling shares will have an impact legally?

I believe it's 2000btc.

Ah... not bad... together with the 6k from weexchange its a big amount.

I thought only 2k was owed for the missing weexchange funds?

No, he paid back around 6% and somewhere claimed he paid back 3xx BTC at that time. Calculating that meant he owes over 6k btc for weexchange users.

[glendall]

So basically Ukyo has stolen (until shown otherwise) over $5 million USD in today's fiat price of bitcoin.

[malkusch]

I suggest to create a new closed thread dedicated to Ukyo.Loan debtees to discuss the resolution constructively. That closed thread should be accessed by Ukyo plus deptees above a significant amount only.

This sounds like a good idea. Can you set this up?

I learned that this is not possible in this forum. The closest I could do is opening a self moderated thread and remove unwanted noise. That's not really what I had on mind when talking about a "closed thread". Plus I'm in a situation where I don't have that time. What I could easily do is setting up a dedicated forum for this matter. But I don't know if this is an acceptable alternative. I would also be happy to fly to a meeting where we all sit on a table with Ukyo and discuss the situation (I hate live meetings).

I'm a large holder, a new thread is useless. Just say/do what you have to say/do.

I'm very undecided about what to do with this loan situation. Before this Activeminer guy I was in a relaxed sit and wait mood, but this is unfortunately no more acceptable. The best would be active communication with Ukyo. I'd like to know what the current state is and what we have to expect for the future. And I want deadline. I contacted him vainly on several channels (but I'll try more). So I doubt there will come more information (especially not in this thread).

The next step would be for me personally to file a complaint. But only because it's easy and free. I don't expect much from it as my country is far away from Ukyo.

So next I would get legal advice from a lawyer closer to Ukyo's location and follow them. At this phase we're all in the same shoes. It's a time and cost intensive process. So it seems natural for me to aggregate. I'm also curious about the actions of the other holders.

[mgio]

It's been over 2 months and no word from Ukyo.

He has stopped responding to my messages. I'm sure he is very busy, but he must realize we are not content to sit around indefinitely with zero information as to what is going on.

Ukyo definitely has assets. The only way he can get out of this loan is if he declares personal bankruptcy, as he stated in the agreement. I don't why he wouldn't be trying to settle up with his creditors in the meantime. It would certainly better than letting lawyers take everything that is left.

Right now it looks like I can continue to sit around and get nothing, or I can get a lawyer and at least have some chance of getting some portion of my investment back. Every day that that ukyo stays missing, makes the decision easier and easier. He isn't even pretending anymore.

[malkusch]

It's been over 2 months and no word from Ukyo.

What would you do if everything what you write erupts in an emotional troll opera?

He has stopped responding to my messages.

I just had a nice conversion in IRC. He didn't stop responding on purpose (just too much spam and focus on more important things). I won't feed the trolls with the log plus there's nothing substantial in it at all.

But I will tell you what I will do. On Sunday it's new year here. You are supposed to stay absolutely calm, not leave the house, limit the consume of electricity to a minimum i.e. not reading this thread. I will extend the latter for the further weeks and continue to follow a reasonable communication in the closed discussion platform of the claim portal.

[Evolyn]

there's nothing substantial in at all

Yes, that's exactly the point. There's nothing substantial at all. And then some complain if people get mad for not letting 'em know what happened with their money for already more than 5 months?

[malkusch]

And then some complain if people get mad for not letting 'em know what happened with their money

Please be aware that this is the loan thread. Don't mix the WeEx issue into this topic. AFAIR the contract clearly states it's a personal loan. Ukyo doesn't need to explain what he does with the loan.

for already more than 5 months?

Regarding the time frame. Imagine you get a loan of 2000 BTC from your bank. What time frame do you expect for paying that back? The loan contract we all agreed on used that wording:

Redeeming shares may take some time to liquidate positions or procure more BTC.

Please apply the facts that Ukyo lost the income of bitfunder, might have some BTC of the loan itself stuck in the WeEx issue plus now every holder seem to claim back their loan shares. 5 month seems more than unrealistic for that.

[Evolyn]

Please be aware that this is the loan thread. Don't mix the WeEx issue into this topic.

Yes, I mixed up these threads, sorry about that. But when I think about it, it's not possible to stricly separate these topics. The thing is we still don't know what happened to the money on Weex/Bitfunder, how things are going on and how that affects the loan. But I'll try not to mix up the topics too much.

Ukyo doesn't need to explain what he does with the loan.

Without the whole Weex/Bitfunder story I would agree on that.

Regarding the time frame. Imagine you get a loan of 2000 BTC from your bank. What time frame do you expect for paying that back? The loan contract we all agreed on used that wording:

Redeeming shares may take some time to liquidate positions or procure more BTC.

Please apply the facts that Ukyo lost the income of bitfunder, might have some BTC of the loan itself stuck in the WeEx issue plus now every holder seem to claim back their loan shares. 5 month seems more than unrealistic for that.

I'm aware that liquidating positions can take some time, but I'm also aware we're in bitcoinland - here you can't translate timeframes 1:1. Waiting 2 weeks, 6 months or even longer wouldn't be the problem if we know he needs that amount of time and what's going on, but for already a while all we know is there is a big black btc hole. All we hear is "things are moving forward, but I can't tell you anything" for some time now. It would be nice to see or know there is some progress, but we get nothing, just the same phrase all time. Not even one share got redeemed since the Weex/Bitfunder problems started? All I want is to be able to track any kind of progress on this topic. Honestly, at the moment I just feel scammed and want something that changes my view.

[thy]

Please be aware that this is the loan thread. Don't mix the WeEx issue into this topic.

Yes, I mixed up these threads, sorry about that. But when I think about it, it's not possible to stricly separate these topics. The thing is we still don't know what happened to the money on Weex/Bitfunder, how things are going on and how that affects the loan. But I'll try not to mix up the topics too much.

Ukyo doesn't need to explain what he does with the loan.

Without the whole Weex/Bitfunder story I would agree on that.

Regarding the time frame. Imagine you get a loan of 2000 BTC from your bank. What time frame do you expect for paying that back? The loan contract we all agreed on used that wording:

Redeeming shares may take some time to liquidate positions or procure more BTC.

Please apply the facts that Ukyo lost the income of bitfunder, might have some BTC of the loan itself stuck in the WeEx issue plus now every holder seem to claim back their loan shares. 5 month seems more than unrealistic for that.

I'm aware that liquidating positions can take some time, but I'm also aware we're in bitcoinland - here you can't translate timeframes 1:1. Waiting 2 weeks, 6 months or even longer wouldn't be the problem if we know he needs that amount of time and what's going on, but for already a while all we know is there is a big black btc hole. All we hear is "things are moving forward, but I can't tell you anything" for some time now. It would be nice to see or know there is some progress, but we get nothing, just the same phrase all time. Not even one share got redeemed since the Weex/Bitfunder problems started? All I want is to be able to track any kind of progress on this topic. Honestly, at the moment I just feel scammed and want something that changes my view.

mgio got some of his shares redeemed after the problems started and the massive redemptions were sent to Ukyo and ukyo said that there was also some people with small positions before mgio that got there shares redeemed to.

But other than that your right, there has been very little visible progress or information on whats going on.

[mgio]

Please be aware that this is the loan thread. Don't mix the WeEx issue into this topic.

Yes, I mixed up these threads, sorry about that. But when I think about it, it's not possible to stricly separate these topics. The thing is we still don't know what happened to the money on Weex/Bitfunder, how things are going on and how that affects the loan. But I'll try not to mix up the topics too much.

Ukyo doesn't need to explain what he does with the loan.

Without the whole Weex/Bitfunder story I would agree on that.

Regarding the time frame. Imagine you get a loan of 2000 BTC from your bank. What time frame do you expect for paying that back? The loan contract we all agreed on used that wording:

Redeeming shares may take some time to liquidate positions or procure more BTC.

Please apply the facts that Ukyo lost the income of bitfunder, might have some BTC of the loan itself stuck in the WeEx issue plus now every holder seem to claim back their loan shares. 5 month seems more than unrealistic for that.

I'm aware that liquidating positions can take some time, but I'm also aware we're in bitcoinland - here you can't translate timeframes 1:1. Waiting 2 weeks, 6 months or even longer wouldn't be the problem if we know he needs that amount of time and what's going on, but for already a while all we know is there is a big black btc hole. All we hear is "things are moving forward, but I can't tell you anything" for some time now. It would be nice to see or know there is some progress, but we get nothing, just the same phrase all time. Not even one share got redeemed since the Weex/Bitfunder problems started? All I want is to be able to track any kind of progress on this topic. Honestly, at the moment I just feel scammed and want something that changes my view.

mgio got some of his shares redeemed after the problems started and the massive redemptions were sent to Ukyo and ukyo said that there was also some people with small positions before mgio that got there shares redeemed to.

But other than that your right, there has been very little visible progress or information on whats going on.

No, I got NONE of my shares redeemed. According to ukyo, I was at the top of the queue as I was probably the first to request redemption that had not gotten redeemed, at least. I requested redemption the same day that bitfunder first announced that it would no longer due business with US customers anymore.

I was able to sell about 254 of the 25,000 shares I owned at below issue price but of course I was never able to withdraw that money because of the weexchange issues. So, I still own 24,746 shares, none of which have been redeemed. The only I ever got was 6% of my stuck bitfunder balance, just like everyone else.

[mgio]

It's been over 2 months and no word from Ukyo.

What would you do if everything what you write erupts in an emotional troll opera?

He can still post announcements and ignore the trolls. Really, who cares about the trolls anyways? There isn't an exchange (bitfunder) for them to affect anymore, so what they say is meaningless. I'm not saying ukyo should be spending his time reading every rant on these forums, but to at least be giving us SOME information. It's good to here he is still on IRC, but I don't have time to sit on IRC all day and wait for him to pop up. There should be a way for his ukyo.loan holders to contact him, at least. There really isn't all that many of us.

He has stopped responding to my messages.

I just had a nice conversion in IRC. He didn't stop responding on purpose (just too much spam and focus on more important things). I won't feed the trolls with the log plus there's nothing substantial in it at all.

I've talked to him on IRC before, and exchanged some messages with him here, too. I do believe he is trying to do the right thing. We need more information from him though. The rumor was that Weexchange was going to take over for MtGox's US business. With the failure of MtGox, it would be nice to at least hear him say that that didn't not affect the businesses that ukyo.loan was invested in, if that is, in fact true.

Really, even to hear him say "I'm still working on it and I expect to be able to redeem all shares of ukyo.loan someday" as he'd said over and over before would be better than the nothing we've been getting for the past couple of months.

But I will tell you what I will do. On Sunday it's new year here. You are supposed to stay absolutely calm, not leave the house, limit the consume of electricity to a minimum i.e. not reading this thread. I will extend the latter for the further weeks and continue to follow a reasonable communication in the closed discussion platform of the claim portal.

I have no idea what you are talking about here. What is the "closed discussion platform of the claim portal".

[mgio]

And then some complain if people get mad for not letting 'em know what happened with their money

Please be aware that this is the loan thread. Don't mix the WeEx issue into this topic. AFAIR the contract clearly states it's a personal loan. Ukyo doesn't need to explain what he does with the loan.

for already more than 5 months?

Regarding the time frame. Imagine you get a loan of 2000 BTC from your bank. What time frame do you expect for paying that back? The loan contract we all agreed on used that wording:

Redeeming shares may take some time to liquidate positions or procure more BTC.

Please apply the facts that Ukyo lost the income of bitfunder, might have some BTC of the loan itself stuck in the WeEx issue plus now every holder seem to claim back their loan shares. 5 month seems more than unrealistic for that.

Yes, I agree. I did not expect ukyo to be able to pay back the whole loan so quickly especially since the price of BTC is several times what it was when the loan was taken out.

And the agreement does not say how long we would have to be expected to wait for the redemption to happen.

But he stopped paying dividends, too, which is already in violation of the agreement. If we had been receiving dividends all along, I would be far less concerned about the status of the original investment. Right now, without any dividends we would naturally want our money back as soon as possible to eliminate further risk. If that is not possible, I think we deserve to know what the money is tied up in (what kind of business, etc) so we know ukyo isn't just sitting around using the money to go on vacations and pay his rent.

[malkusch]

He can still post announcements and ignore the trolls.

He could, but at least what I got from the conversion the trolls are affecting him. I mean it's hard to ignore some people throwing out personal data and threatening his family (IIRC that happened in some of those threads) on every post he writes. So his strategy became only to come out with substantial information. The first information should be soon enough to sit around a bit more.

I have no idea what you are talking about here. What is the "closed discussion platform of the claim portal".

Sorry that I wasn't clear enough about that. Ukyo told me in IRC that he will launch the claim portal which will include a discussion platform. This sounds to me a better communication platform than here.

But he stopped paying dividends, too, which is already in violation of the agreement.

I agree on that and I'm also not happy with this. But I believe that Ukyo came unwillingly into a situation where it's simply impossible to generate dividends. But Ukyo told me an approximate time frame when he's expecting to pay back the interests and continue to pay back dividends daily. He even gave an estimation when the loan should be payed back completely. I won't post that here, but would in the claim discussion platform or better let Ukyo himself give a statement. If you want I can PM you those frame. Given the huge amount of BTC and the WeEx issue it sounds reasonable for me to sit around for that given time.

[thy]

Please be aware that this is the loan thread. Don't mix the WeEx issue into this topic.

Yes, I mixed up these threads, sorry about that. But when I think about it, it's not possible to stricly separate these topics. The thing is we still don't know what happened to the money on Weex/Bitfunder, how things are going on and how that affects the loan. But I'll try not to mix up the topics too much.

Ukyo doesn't need to explain what he does with the loan.

Without the whole Weex/Bitfunder story I would agree on that.

Regarding the time frame. Imagine you get a loan of 2000 BTC from your bank. What time frame do you expect for paying that back? The loan contract we all agreed on used that wording:

Redeeming shares may take some time to liquidate positions or procure more BTC.

Please apply the facts that Ukyo lost the income of bitfunder, might have some BTC of the loan itself stuck in the WeEx issue plus now every holder seem to claim back their loan shares. 5 month seems more than unrealistic for that.

I'm aware that liquidating positions can take some time, but I'm also aware we're in bitcoinland - here you can't translate timeframes 1:1. Waiting 2 weeks, 6 months or even longer wouldn't be the problem if we know he needs that amount of time and what's going on, but for already a while all we know is there is a big black btc hole. All we hear is "things are moving forward, but I can't tell you anything" for some time now. It would be nice to see or know there is some progress, but we get nothing, just the same phrase all time. Not even one share got redeemed since the Weex/Bitfunder problems started? All I want is to be able to track any kind of progress on this topic. Honestly, at the moment I just feel scammed and want something that changes my view.

mgio got some of his shares redeemed after the problems started and the massive redemptions were sent to Ukyo and ukyo said that there was also some people with small positions before mgio that got there shares redeemed to.

But other than that your right, there has been very little visible progress or information on whats going on.

No, I got NONE of my shares redeemed. According to ukyo, I was at the top of the queue as I was probably the first to request redemption that had not gotten redeemed, at least. I requested redemption the same day that bitfunder first announced that it would no longer due business with US customers anymore.

I was able to sell about 254 of the 25,000 shares I owned at below issue price but of course I was never able to withdraw that money because of the weexchange issues. So, I still own 24,746 shares, none of which have been redeemed. The only I ever got was 6% of my stuck bitfunder balance, just like everyone else.

Oh sorry to hear that you diden't get any shares redeemed, i thought Ukyo had started to redeem yours back then, i must have missunderstood what Ukyo said then.

[thy]

He can still post announcements and ignore the trolls.

He could, but at least what I got from the conversion the trolls are affecting him. I mean it's hard to ignore some people throwing out personal data and threatening his family (IIRC that happened in some of those threads) on every post he writes. So his strategy became only to come out with substantial information. The first information should be soon enough to sit around a bit more.

I have no idea what you are talking about here. What is the "closed discussion platform of the claim portal".

Sorry that I wasn't clear enough about that. Ukyo told me in IRC that he will launch the claim portal which will include a discussion platform. This sounds to me a better communication platform than here.

But he stopped paying dividends, too, which is already in violation of the agreement.

I agree on that and I'm also not happy with this. But I believe that Ukyo came unwillingly into a situation where it's simply impossible to generate dividends. But Ukyo told me an approximate time frame when he's expecting to pay back the interests and continue to pay back daily. He even gave an estimation when the loan should be payed back completely. I won't post that here, but would in the claim discussion platform or better let Ukyo himself give a statement. If you want I can PM you those frame. Given the huge amount of BTC and the WeEx issue it sounds reasonable for me to sit around for that given time.

Thats very positive news then. I would also be interested to get that information on the timeframes Ukyo mentioned to you if it's possible, i do have a substancial position in the Ukyo-loan/Graet-loan/Weexchange-balance myself even if it's not quite as big as mgio's.

[MikkisJ]

Ukyo is finishing making the claim portal. I tested it. At the moment there is a simple looking but working claim function and a simple "message board". You enter email, nickname and password, also put in the signature made from your BitFunder public bitcoin address. Then you can login into the claim portal where you see the number of shares, the date last dividend was paid and past due dividends owed to you.

[mgio]

Ukyo is finishing making the claim portal. I tested it. At the moment there is a simple looking but working claim function and a simple "message board". You enter email, nickname and password, also put in the signature made from your BitFunder public bitcoin address. Then you can login into the claim portal where you see the number of shares, the date last dividend was paid and past due dividends owed to you.

That's great that this is almost finally done, but really it means very little. Just because there is a portal doesn't mean we are going to see any of our coins.

I really want to know what the coins are investing in and when we can expect to hear *any* news.

Frankly, I'd like to hear something from ukyo directly. Does anyone know how I can contact him since he has stopped responding to PMs. I'm not going to harass him, I just want to find out what is going on.

In the meantime, I have a meeting scheduled with my lawyer to talk about next steps. I really rather just talk to ukyo directly, but he is making that incredibly difficult and it might end up that using lawyers are the only way. I'm still willing to be patient. I just need some real information.

[MikkisJ]

Ukyo is finishing making the claim portal. I tested it. At the moment there is a simple looking but working claim function and a simple "message board". You enter email, nickname and password, also put in the signature made from your BitFunder public bitcoin address. Then you can login into the claim portal where you see the number of shares, the date last dividend was paid and past due dividends owed to you.

That's great that this is almost finally done, but really it means very little. Just because there is a portal doesn't mean we are going to see any of our coins.

I really want to know what the coins are investing in and when we can expect to hear *any* news.

Frankly, I'd like to hear something from ukyo directly. Does anyone know how I can contact him since he has stopped responding to PMs. I'm not going to harass him, I just want to find out what is going on.

In the meantime, I have a meeting scheduled with my lawyer to talk about next steps. I really rather just talk to ukyo directly, but he is making that incredibly difficult and it might end up that using lawyers are the only way. I'm still willing to be patient. I just need some real information.

Come to irc, freenode, channel #bitfunder, Ukyo is frequently there and answers questions. I have had several chats with him.