[BitFunder] Ukyo.Loan - Paying 0.05% daily.

[sparky999]

Have you read his recent updates in the discussion section of the portal?

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[SebastianJu]

Have you read his recent updates in the discussion section of the portal?

Do you mean at https://loan.weexchange.co/ ? I didnt know there is a forum behind too. Though i anyway wouldnt be able to read there since i only lost coins in weexchange, not with ukyo loan.

[IPO Magic]

...Its true that its possibly easy to get him sued for his loan. But i doubt that there are assets of any substantial value. Future incomes ok but rest of his life wouldnt be correct too. He simply would need to file personal bankruptcy and thats it...

An illegal, unlicensed exchange can not declare bankruptcy.  Just like a Ponzi scheme can not declare bankruptcy.  See Piercing the corporate veil.

[SebastianJu]

...Its true that its possibly easy to get him sued for his loan. But i doubt that there are assets of any substantial value. Future incomes ok but rest of his life wouldnt be correct too. He simply would need to file personal bankruptcy and thats it...

An illegal, unlicensed exchange can not declare bankruptcy.  Just like a Ponzi scheme can not declare bankruptcy.  See Piercing the corporate veil.

You speak about bitfunder. Thats different from ukyo loan. Ukyo loan was a private person, ukyo, taking a debt from other private persons. Thats why you can sue him easily.

Weexchange is different. Its a company. If you sue it theres a chance it goes bankrupt and thats it for the debts. If you claim it was a scam you need to provide proof. An unregistered exchange is no scam in itself. An unregistered exchange only means he would have to pay a fine. Thats all. Next step would be the coins missing. And everything was done as a company... weexchange. Chances are... like i wrote... that you sue, weexchange goes bankrupt and thats it. You dont know what happened and ukyo only would be privately indebted if he did something criminal where the company wouldnt protect him against. As long as you dont know what happened its a gamble to sue weexchange. Either you get nothing or you get ukyo to pay back. But ukyo most probably has not the money to pay anything worthwile back.

Thats why i only sent a lawyer letter to ukyo to get more information but didnt sue weex...

[Phildo]

I'm not a lawyer, but I bet a good one could pierce the veil for weex. Didn't Ukyo, the person, claim that he wanted to sell his personal shares of active mining to pay back weex people. It may have been the loan, but I would look into that if I lost money.

[IPO Magic]

...Its true that its possibly easy to get him sued for his loan. But i doubt that there are assets of any substantial value. Future incomes ok but rest of his life wouldnt be correct too. He simply would need to file personal bankruptcy and thats it...

An illegal, unlicensed exchange can not declare bankruptcy.  Just like a Ponzi scheme can not declare bankruptcy.  See Piercing the corporate veil.

You speak about bitfunder. Thats different from ukyo loan. Ukyo loan was a private person, ukyo, taking a debt from other private persons. Thats why you can sue him easily.

Weexchange is different. Its a company. If you sue it theres a chance it goes bankrupt and thats it for the debts. If you claim it was a scam you need to provide proof. An unregistered exchange is no scam in itself...

An unregistered exchange is not a scam in itself, but by virtue of being illegal it is not afforded the protection of teh corporate veil.  It can not enjoy bankruptcy protection any more than Dimebag Pedro could.  Again, see Piercing the corporate veil. 

[SebastianJu]

I'm not a lawyer, but I bet a good one could pierce the veil for weex. Didn't Ukyo, the person, claim that he wanted to sell his personal shares of active mining to pay back weex people. It may have been the loan, but I would look into that if I lost money.

Yes, he wanted to sell his shares to pay back part of his debts. Though ken slaughter stole the shares only to make all the coins coming from it worthless at the end.

If ukyo wanted to pay it back this way doesnt make a legal way to sue ukyo directly because the ceo of a company can pay with his private belongings but that doesnt make a right for others to be paid by his other private belongings.

An unregistered exchange is not a scam in itself, but by virtue of being illegal it is not afforded the protection of teh corporate veil.  It can not enjoy bankruptcy protection any more than Dimebag Pedro could.  Again, see Piercing the corporate veil. 

bitfunder was the exchange. Weex was a kind of wallet and weex is the company that lost coins. But even when this wouldnt be the case... it depends on what happened with the coins. He didnt sell shares for a company he owns. He only had a wallet that lost coins and an unregulated exchange. So what will you charge him that could make him personally viable? Lets say the coins vanished because they were stolen. I dont see how you could justify that he personally had to pay for it. Not to speak about if he could do it at all.

[IPO Magic]

Lol, "kind of wallet"?  Weex was an unlicensed money transmitter, integral to the operation of Bitfunder.
This "kind of wallet" also ran afoul of pretty much every AML/KYC regulation.  Again, neither the exchange nor the "kind of wallet" are eligible for bankruptcy protection.  

Finally, though I admire marvel at your canine devotion to Jon, at the same time I can't shake the feeling such loyalty to the man who unsmilingly assrapes you is somehow, a bit... wrong.  Let's just say I now know just how caseworkers dealing with battered wives must feel.

[Phildo]

If Ukyo the person wanted to sell his private assets to pay back the debts of the company, he's going to have a hard time saying that Ukyo the person isn't responsible for the company's debts, so you should sue ukyo the person for his personal debts and for the company's debts. But this is bitcoin, so no one will do anything but watch ukyo live off of your coins and string you guys along forever.

[SebastianJu]

Maybe youre right IPO Magic. Weex didnt transfer coins from or to bitfunder since bitfunder never handled coins really but weex transferred coins from one owner to another. Though not storing the real infos of the persons to protect against money laundering is only a thing he would have to pay a fine for. I dont see that this is enough to lose the bankruptcy protection. The contracts between the parttaking parties were real even without license.

Its a bit strange that everyone happily jumps into unregistered ventures but when it goes wrong he claims it was illegal from the start. While everyone knew it before. Judging from that practically no bitcoin business would be legal.

Im not defending ukyo. I only do what i think has the biggest chance for me to get my coins back. I know many people cant think clear anymore when it comes to that point. Im not like that. So go ahead and think what you want of me. Its only a business decision based on the things i know. I wont sue if i dont see a chance that it will have a nice result. I prefer to wait if he can sort things out. Of course if he would vanish and nothing moves anymore i would sue him instantly. Since then it wouldnt look like he works on things anymore and all would most probably be lost. I would sue him just for justice then.

So see it as admiration but i see that you put emotions into business decision. Something thats very much wrong and most users that are longer in bitcoin community had to learn the hard way. Im one of them.

Phildo... The CEO of a company can invest coins into his own company, even to pay back debts. But that doesnt make him liable to do so. Only if he promised to do something then it could be a contract. But the contract cant be filled anymore because the shares were stolen.

You only say i should sue because for some reason you believe he has the missing coins. I dont know how to judge this. Is this the hope of a desperate that prefer to believe in a good vision of reality? Wheres your hint that he still has the coins? And even when he really would be a scammer... dont you think he could be smart enough to have the coins hidden long ago? Maybe even so that it looks like stolen and no one can prove otherwise?
So i think your delusional. Please believe what you want but i dont act on such a thin hope. The hope on the other side is bigger since i saw he works on things.

But like i said... i never understood the guys that didnt sue pirateat40 when it was clear that it was a scam. I thought its plain stupid. And i sue the labcoin scammer because its clear its a scam. And i would sue ukyo when its clear its a scam. But its not clear. It looks to me the other way. So again... act on the believe that everything is how you wish it to be but i dont think thats an unemotional decision.

[stereotype]

Maybe youre right IPO Magic. Weex didnt transfer coins from or to bitfunder since bitfunder never handled coins really but weex transferred coins from one owner to another. Though not storing the real infos of the persons to protect against money laundering is only a thing he would have to pay a fine for. I dont see that this is enough to lose the bankruptcy protection. The contracts between the parttaking parties were real even without license.

Its a bit strange that everyone happily jumps into unregistered ventures but when it goes wrong he claims it was illegal from the start. While everyone knew it before. Judging from that practically no bitcoin business would be legal.

Im not defending ukyo. I only do what i think has the biggest chance for me to get my coins back. I know many people cant think clear anymore when it comes to that point. Im not like that. So go ahead and think what you want of me. Its only a business decision based on the things i know. I wont sue if i dont see a chance that it will have a nice result. I prefer to wait if he can sort things out. Of course if he would vanish and nothing moves anymore i would sue him instantly. Since then it wouldnt look like he works on things anymore and all would most probably be lost. I would sue him just for justice then.

So see it as admiration but i see that you put emotions into business decision. Something thats very much wrong and most users that are longer in bitcoin community had to learn the hard way. Im one of them.

Phildo... The CEO of a company can invest coins into his own company, even to pay back debts. But that doesnt make him liable to do so. Only if he promised to do something then it could be a contract. But the contract cant be filled anymore because the shares were stolen.

You only say i should sue because for some reason you believe he has the missing coins. I dont know how to judge this. Is this the hope of a desperate that prefer to believe in a good vision of reality? Wheres your hint that he still has the coins? And even when he really would be a scammer... dont you think he could be smart enough to have the coins hidden long ago? Maybe even so that it looks like stolen and no one can prove otherwise?
So i think your delusional. Please believe what you want but i dont act on such a thin hope. The hope on the other side is bigger since i saw he works on things.

But like i said... i never understood the guys that didnt sue pirateat40 when it was clear that it was a scam. I thought its plain stupid. And i sue the labcoin scammer because its clear its a scam. And i would sue ukyo when its clear its a scam. But its not clear. It looks to me the other way. So again... act on the believe that everything is how you wish it to be but i dont think thats an unemotional decision.

A fair argument will never be achieved when you claim to know more than others, Seb.

Are you saying that Ukyo has asked you, and a few others to keep quiet about his plans?

[Phildo]

Where is the hint that he doesn't have the coins? I don't care if you sue or not, but i have no idea why you or anyone else would trust this guy after what he's done. He either lost are stole a shitload of coins, and no one did or is going to do anything about it. Why? Even in the best case scenario where something truly unexpected/unexplainable/unsolvable happened, why on earth would anyone have faith that a guy who has been silent for months will be able ot make up the entire debt?

And if you don't want to go after him for piercing the corporate veil, that's fine, but I still think peiople owed money should look into it. Again, not a lawyer, but to this layperson I see a big difference between a ceo "investing" in a "company" (especially one that's dead) and a ceo using personal funds to pay corporate debts. Good luck waiting for the magic to happen.

[SebastianJu]

A fair argument will never be achieved when you claim to know more than others, Seb.

Are you saying that Ukyo has asked you, and a few others to keep quiet about his plans?

I dont know what happened. I only had a lot of conversation with ukyo so i could make my own image of whats going on.

Of course i know a little bit more about what he does now since i dont post the chatlogs nor tell details because i promised not to do so. Ill honor this.

Please feel free to do the same to get your own image.

Where is the hint that he doesn't have the coins? I don't care if you sue or not, but i have no idea why you or anyone else would trust this guy after what he's done. He either lost are stole a shitload of coins, and no one did or is going to do anything about it. Why? Even in the best case scenario where something truly unexpected/unexplainable/unsolvable happened, why on earth would anyone have faith that a guy who has been silent for months will be able ot make up the entire debt?

And if you don't want to go after him for piercing the corporate veil, that's fine, but I still think peiople owed money should look into it. Again, not a lawyer, but to this layperson I see a big difference between a ceo "investing" in a "company" (especially one that's dead) and a ceo using personal funds to pay corporate debts. Good luck waiting for the magic to happen.

There are other explainations what could have happened so that ukyo couldnt change it nor avoid it. And as far as i wrote with ukyo he is doing all he can to get all back. And i wait because i believe thats the best choice now. You only dont understand it because you think hes a scammer.

> Even in the best case scenario where something truly unexpected/unexplainable/unsolvable happened, why on earth would anyone have faith that a guy who has been silent for months will be able ot make up the entire debt?

* I know he works on projects
* I wrote with him and was able to get a feeling about how things go
* The silence is because
** it could lower the chance to get weex coins back
** speaking without a success only means shitstorm
* i dont have another choice. Simple business decision.

I lost coins in weex but i dont think the issue is of some kind that could pierce the corporate veil. On top... if sued it could lead to all hopes for weex coins are gone. If he has to pay from private belongings it might even mean he cant work the coins back. So sueing simply sounds like a stupid business decision. If there were no chance anymore then it wouldnt make sense to hope and i would sue him only to get him fined.

I think your "believes" of what happened, that he has the coins or what will happen if sued are on very thin feets. Nothing i would set on. So think what you want about me, i believe thats the best choice for the moment.

[stereotype]

A fair argument will never be achieved when you claim to know more than others, Seb.

Are you saying that Ukyo has asked you, and a few others to keep quiet about his plans?

I dont know what happened. I only had a lot of conversation with ukyo so i could make my own image of whats going on.

Of course i know a little bit more about what he does now since i dont post the chatlogs nor tell details because i promised not to do so. Ill honor this.

Fair enough.

[NotLambchop]

[wall-of-denial]

And this is how Bitcoin became both a nursery for budding con artists and a rest home for over-the-hill scams.
No matter how pathetic a con, no matter how laughably inept the execution, no mater how long ago it got burnt down IRL--the local wizards of finance will surely "invest."

Typical example from "Cryptostocks Project Review" thread, posted by a typical Bitcoin investor:

Now that everything is back to normal for now, I feel we can get back to project reviews. The most impressive Security right now in terms of dividend returns is RETURN. They are some great traders and know that business well translating into ~30% gains per month. Their 2nd IPO went fast and all shareholders are pleased w/ the div payments every other day.

Yeah, you guessed it, the "great traders" [predictably] vanished with the coin, the "shares" are worthless.
Some d00d going by SamboNZ, who pimped this "investment" and claimed to have full dox on the issuer, finally posts a blurry ID with with a sorrowful

...So, that pretty much clinches it then; this license is a fake and is proof that this was a scam from the start.
...

SebastianJu, SamboNZ--interchangeable.  Every con has them--either in on scam. or just rock-stupid rubes who shouldn't be handling sharp objects, much less vouching for issuers and handing out financial and legal advice.

[mgio]

Ukyo has made a lot of promises. I've talked to him here and there about his plans for the ukyo.loan funds.

Like others, he has told me he is working on a big project but I know even less about it that other posters here seem to.

He has said he would be posting here soon with a status update. I can understand why he avoids these boards, but we, as creditors, need something.

The big question is how long are we willing to wait?

At some point his biggest creditors are going to sue him forcing him to pay up what he can and declare bankruptcy to get rid of the rest.

I hope it doesn't come to that, but it really is a question of how patient are we willing to be.

Does ukyo really have a big project that will enable him to pay off the debt by the end of the year (as he has claimed) or is he simply living off of all our bitcoins?

Personally, I think we deserve more information from him. I have had an awful hard time contacting him recently and have a lawyer on retainer if it seems like he has abandoned us. I am trying to give him the benefit of the doubt but I am about to start the legal process in the meantime as he his lack of communication is leaving me no other choice.

FWIW, ukyo owes me >250 btc presently. I might be his biggest creditor. I'm not entirely sure.

[ortsi]

mgio,

I would like to join a lawsuit ASAP. Ukyo owes me 15 BTC.

I suggest anyone else who's interested to join a lawsuit, please reply with a short message, and mention how many bitcoins you lost.

 I see no reason to wait any longer.

We should act fast as people are probably loosing interest.

I'll be happy to assist in the administration; I don't have any legal experience, and probably don't have the credibility to handle money, but I'll be happy to help to in every other aspect that I can.

Cheers!

[thy]

If he dont live up to the minimum standards we set, then we all join together and start a single lawsuit against Ukyo, i cant really see that there should be any mayour cost involved in starting a civil and/or criminal case against Ukyo as it should be pretty simple and clear case(he borrowed money and hasent payed interest accouding to term and he hasent payed back the principal either to those that requested there shares bought back) and it should lead to that we get lien on all his assets of any substancial value and all his future incomes(except for some minimum needed for food and such) that Jon Montroll has for the rest of his life or until he has payed back the entire loan.

If Jon Montroll realy wanted to, im sure it wouldent have been impossible for himself, possibly with the help of his relatives to go get a loan for 800k/1.2 million usd(@ 400-600 usd /BTC) that the value of 2 000 btc has been around the last months and he could have had the entire loan paid of a long time ago.  

Its true that its possibly easy to get him sued for his loan. But i doubt that there are assets of any substantial value. Future incomes ok but rest of his life wouldnt be correct too. He simply would need to file personal bankruptcy and thats it... for one year he would have to pay and then the rest of the debts are deleted. No chance at all to get the rest back anymore.

Im not sure what family you have but a loan for 1.2 million usd? I know nobody that could make this possible. And why should a family do this anyway? He is american... not some tribal citizen where debts could be a honor threat to a family. His family would flip him the bird if he asks them to get indebted that high because of some random internet guys.

But try it... judging from the amount of the size of the debt of ukyo loan i dont see that the cost of a lawsuit... yes, you would have to pay lawyers... would be worth the return. But maybe im wrong and he has some property somewhere. I only doubt it.

Well i guess rules is different in different countrys, if he had lived in some countrys he would have ended up having to pay for the rest of his life if he had depts he couldent pay. Around a million usd isent that mush, many people can get loans for such amount with or without security in many countrys around the world, i dont know exactly how ukyos econimical situation is, maby hes not in the possition to get such relatively large loan. and the family part that was just mean as they could go in and help securing his loan if the bank wouldent allow him a big enouth loan without extra security in the form of people that would be legally bound to cover up for him if he cant fully pay the loan to the bank back alone.

[SebastianJu]

So you compare me to someone that found a hyip the first time.  I guess your world is just black and white.

Ukyo has made a lot of promises. I've talked to him here and there about his plans for the ukyo.loan funds.

Like others, he has told me he is working on a big project but I know even less about it that other posters here seem to.

He has said he would be posting here soon with a status update. I can understand why he avoids these boards, but we, as creditors, need something.

The big question is how long are we willing to wait?

At some point his biggest creditors are going to sue him forcing him to pay up what he can and declare bankruptcy to get rid of the rest.

I hope it doesn't come to that, but it really is a question of how patient are we willing to be.

Does ukyo really have a big project that will enable him to pay off the debt by the end of the year (as he has claimed) or is he simply living off of all our bitcoins?

Personally, I think we deserve more information from him. I have had an awful hard time contacting him recently and have a lawyer on retainer if it seems like he has abandoned us. I am trying to give him the benefit of the doubt but I am about to start the legal process in the meantime as he his lack of communication is leaving me no other choice.

FWIW, ukyo owes me >250 btc presently. I might be his biggest creditor. I'm not entirely sure.

Ukyo loan and weex are two different things. Sueing for ukyo loan would be pretty easy because you would need to sue him personally and you would be successfull most probably. The question would be the outcome of it. Chances are you win but get practically nothing.

A different thing is weex. I hope no one tries to sue weex now. Besides the slim chances of winning and getting something back... if the bankruptcy of weex company really means my chances to get my original coins back vanish... im not sure what i do with this "smart person". Of course all on the assumption ukyo told the truth. The problem seems to be... once we know what happened... either the coins are back or the coins cant never be retrieved. And the chances for the original coins look not so bad... only time is needed.

I didnt lose as much coins as you but like i wrote, i once let my lawyer sent him and graet a letter demanding informations. After that i got some longer talks on irc so i at least could get a feeling about what happens.

Well i guess rules is different in different countrys, if he had lived in some countrys he would have ended up having to pay for the rest of his life if he had depts he couldent pay. Around a million usd isent that mush, many people can get loans for such amount with or without security in many countrys around the world, i dont know exactly how ukyos econimical situation is, maby hes not in the possition to get such relatively large loan. and the family part that was just mean as they could go in and help securing his loan if the bank wouldent allow him a big enouth loan without extra security in the form of people that would be legally bound to cover up for him if he cant fully pay the loan to the bank back alone.

At least in my country the banks are very very cautious if they would get their money back. They would never give out a million usd without giving security in exchange. So the family would have to risk their houses or similar things. I never could imagine that someone would do this without pressure. If one gets indebted then its his fault and he has to take responsibility. Especially its not a problem when you can go bankrupt personally. Then the family would be plain stupid to put money into it.

[thy]

Ukyo has made a lot of promises. I've talked to him here and there about his plans for the ukyo.loan funds.

Like others, he has told me he is working on a big project but I know even less about it that other posters here seem to.

He has said he would be posting here soon with a status update. I can understand why he avoids these boards, but we, as creditors, need something.

The big question is how long are we willing to wait?

At some point his biggest creditors are going to sue him forcing him to pay up what he can and declare bankruptcy to get rid of the rest.

I hope it doesn't come to that, but it really is a question of how patient are we willing to be.

Does ukyo really have a big project that will enable him to pay off the debt by the end of the year (as he has claimed) or is he simply living off of all our bitcoins?

Personally, I think we deserve more information from him. I have had an awful hard time contacting him recently and have a lawyer on retainer if it seems like he has abandoned us. I am trying to give him the benefit of the doubt but I am about to start the legal process in the meantime as he his lack of communication is leaving me no other choice.

FWIW, ukyo owes me >250 btc presently. I might be his biggest creditor. I'm not entirely sure.

mgio you are the biggest creditor in ukyo loan, there is 36 lender that owns 1000(10 btc+) or more shares in Ukyo loan,  ukyo himself is one of them(7695 shares) and i wouldent be suppriced if Graet is another that has over 1000 shares in ukyo loan.
If you include weexchange i think danny from NEE and BEE mentioned something like 1400 btc lost in the weexchange problem and ukyo has mentioned he was the one that lost most coins, so he should be an even bigger part of the around 6300 btc number from weexchange, so Ukyo himself is at over 1400 btc lost, or maby it should be called currently/temporary missing coins.