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Author Topic: What we need is FAIR markets, not free markets.  (Read 9404 times)
Findeton
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July 05, 2011, 07:04:09 PM
 #61

Yes, because that's the point: Bill doesn't WANT to hire him because he's not worth minimum wage! He comes to work drunk, causes trouble and does a sloppy job. Bill might be willing to hire him for $5 an hour, but not for the minimum wage of $10 an hour. And Bill won't pay him that if there's any way around it, because it's a bad deal for Bill.

Your minimum wage cost Dan a potential job. At this point, probably NO ONE will hire him, because his labor is only worth $5/hr.

Yeah, that makes him better off.  Roll Eyes

If he's drunk at work, he shouldn't work at all.

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July 05, 2011, 07:18:48 PM
 #62

If minimum wage is so great, Let's set it $100/hr, so everyone can be rich!

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July 05, 2011, 08:06:10 PM
 #63

If minimum wage is so great, Let's set it $100/hr, so everyone can be rich!

I already said that minimum wage only works to a certain point. For example, setting minimum wage at half or a third of the median income is a good enough minimum wage.

Economics are not linear, minimum wage are a good instrument but you have to know how to use it.

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July 05, 2011, 08:09:33 PM
 #64

If minimum wage is so great, Let's set it $100/hr, so everyone can be rich!

I already said that minimum wage only works to a certain point. For example, setting minimum wage at half or a third of the median income is a good enough minimum wage.

Oh, I see... So, just a few rungs off the bottom, then. OK. In that case, You don't need all your toes, just the big ones. Mind if I chop off the other 8? It won't affect you much.

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July 05, 2011, 08:13:25 PM
 #65

Life should be fair.

I agree. I think that it's unfair some people are smarter than others. Let's give them brain damage! Also, what about people that are better looking? Acid to the face! Lots of hair? Scalp removal! Taller than me? Chop off their feet! Skinny? Force-fed donuts!

The sooner we all sink to the same level, the sooner I can stop feeling sorry for my own personal shortcomings.

Findeton
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July 05, 2011, 09:28:54 PM
 #66

Oh, I see... So, just a few rungs off the bottom, then. OK. In that case, You don't need all your toes, just the big ones. Mind if I chop off the other 8? It won't affect you much.

Minimum wage is always arbitrary. The actual value is chosen after studying many factors, as a compromise between those factors (like expected unemployment raise after raising minimum wage). In the end you'll choose a value that isn't either too high (for example higher than the average sallary, or, as I prefer, the median sallary) or too low (zero).

You can joke all you want about it, but economics are not linear.

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July 05, 2011, 10:01:01 PM
 #67

Oh, I see... So, just a few rungs off the bottom, then. OK. In that case, You don't need all your toes, just the big ones. Mind if I chop off the other 8? It won't affect you much.

Minimum wage is always arbitrary. The actual value is chosen after studying many factors, as a compromise between those factors (like expected unemployment raise after raising minimum wage). In the end you'll choose a value that isn't either too high (for example higher than the average sallary, or, as I prefer, the median sallary) or too low (zero).

You can joke all you want about it, but economics are not linear.

Linear?  No. But predictable, within range? Yes. minimum wage = unemployment. You want less unemployment, lower the minimum wage. You want 0 unemployment, lower it to 0.

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July 05, 2011, 10:04:53 PM
 #68

Life should be fair.

I agree. I think that it's unfair some people are smarter than others. Let's give them brain damage! Also, what about people that are better looking? Acid to the face! Lots of hair? Scalp removal! Taller than me? Chop off their feet! Skinny? Force-fed donuts!

The sooner we all sink to the same level, the sooner I can stop feeling sorry for my own personal shortcomings.



There was a short story with this concept. Beautiful people had to wear masks and such. What was it called?

Findeton
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July 05, 2011, 10:45:26 PM
 #69

Linear?  No. But predictable, within range? Yes. minimum wage = unemployment. You want less unemployment, lower the minimum wage. You want 0 unemployment, lower it to 0.

Sure, unemployment is linked with minimum wage, I have already stated that like, I don't know, infinite times in this thread already. BTW, no, that's not true, you won't get 0% unemployment just eliminating minimum wage (some people just don't work, others won't work for less than X etc, I guess it depends on how you measure unemployment).

I'm not trying to minimize unemployment rate with minimum wage, that would be absurd.

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myrkul
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July 05, 2011, 10:53:14 PM
 #70

I'm not trying to minimize unemployment rate with minimum wage, that would be absurd.

So, what economic harm are you trying to minimize?

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Findeton
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July 05, 2011, 11:04:47 PM
 #71

I'm not trying to minimize unemployment rate with minimum wage, that would be absurd.

So, what economic harm are you trying to minimize?

Employers have too much power upon the poorest paid workers when workers get to "negotiate" the contract. Minimum wage sets a minimum standard of living, so if you get the job you get that minimum standard of living, there's no negotiation/bargain between employers and workers around that minimum standard. Some workers might not get the job because of that, yeah, that's why you have to get to a compromise between the minimum standard of living and the unemployment it creates.

Overall, minimum wages have a net effect of wealth redistribution and a raise of the standard of living, without creating much unemployment rises if well used.

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myrkul
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July 05, 2011, 11:10:12 PM
 #72

I'm not trying to minimize unemployment rate with minimum wage, that would be absurd.
So, what economic harm are you trying to minimize?
Employers have too much power upon the poorest paid workers when workers get to "negotiate" the contract.

That is much better handled by collective bargaining.

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July 05, 2011, 11:36:19 PM
 #73

Sovereign chance your name to socialist please

Social-democrat is a better definition. I am social-democrat and enjoy one of the best socialized/universal healthcares of the world (inexpensive and high quality). Yes, I'm from Spain.


Hold on for the ride.  You shall live to see your high quality socialized healthcare system utterly collapse.  You will not understand why, and your countrymen will blame government corruption or whatever else, but will also not understand it.  I understand it, and it was predictable a decade ago, probably more.  I'm not making a prediction, for a prediction would imply a possibility of error.  This is inevitable, and Spain is already long past the point of reform, even if that were politically possible.  You will watch as Greece & Ireland proceed your nation, but your turn shall come.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

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July 05, 2011, 11:54:04 PM
 #74

Minimum wage laws may not apply to every situation depending on the jurisdiction. If you're working for piecework you can easily make less than minimum wage if you don't perform well. You can either stick it out until you're making more or you can quit.

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July 06, 2011, 02:44:38 AM
 #75

Life should be fair.

I agree. I think that it's unfair some people are smarter than others. Let's give them brain damage! Also, what about people that are better looking? Acid to the face! Lots of hair? Scalp removal! Taller than me? Chop off their feet! Skinny? Force-fed donuts!

The sooner we all sink to the same level, the sooner I can stop feeling sorry for my own personal shortcomings.



There was a short story with this concept. Beautiful people had to wear masks and such. What was it called?

There is also at least one song:

Rush - The Trees:
Quote
There is unrest in the forest,
There is trouble with the trees,
For the maples want more sunlight
And the oaks ignore their please.

The trouble with the maples,
(And they're quite convinced they're right)
They say the oaks are just too lofty
And they grab up all the light.
But the oaks can't help their feelings
If they like the way they're made.
And they wonder why the maples
Can't be happy in their shade.

There is trouble in the forest,
And the creatures all have fled,
As the maples scream "Oppression!"
And the oaks just shake their heads

So the maples formed a union
And demanded equal rights.
"The oaks are just too greedy;
We will make them give us light."
Now there's no more oak oppression,
For they passed a noble law,
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet, axe, and saw.

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amincd
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July 06, 2011, 02:52:07 AM
 #76

Quote from: Findeton
Quote from: amincd on July 05, 2011, 01:48:51 pm
If people are so desperate to meet their basic needs that they will take a low paying job, then prohibiting those low paying jobs is the opposite of what you want to do. And it doesn't matter how much power the employer has, the only thing he is able to do in a free market is offer people a wage in exchange for a service. If they are not happy with the worker, they can end that employer-employee relationship, which leaves the worker no worse off than he was before.

If the job needs to be done, it will get done even if it requires low skills. In that case, you won't be killing jobs, jsut redistributing wealth.

You're really ignoring my point in your response. The job will be done at a price, and will not be done at a price higher than that. That means that minimum wage mandates can eliminate jobs that would otherwise exist, leading to higher unemployment.

You can give the unemployed welfare, but that's worse for the economy, since they don't get the training they would get working a job, and they don't produce any thing.
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July 06, 2011, 03:02:00 AM
 #77

Employers have too much power upon the poorest paid workers when workers get to "negotiate" the contract. Minimum wage sets a minimum standard of living, so if you get the job you get that minimum standard of living, there's no negotiation/bargain between employers and workers around that minimum standard. Some workers might not get the job because of that, yeah, that's why you have to get to a compromise between the minimum standard of living and the unemployment it creates.
Absent minimum wage laws, the employee has the option to say "yes" or "no". Minimum wage laws simply force him to say "no". This only has any effect at all if he'd rather say "yes". To claim that taking a choice away from him helps him somehow strikes me as absurd.

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July 06, 2011, 03:11:18 AM
 #78

I'm not trying to minimize unemployment rate with minimum wage, that would be absurd.

So, what economic harm are you trying to minimize?

Employers have too much power

That is your opinion. Funny how you're so eager to have guns pointed at people to force your opinion on them.


Quote
Overall, minimum wages have a net effect of wealth redistribution and a raise of the standard of living, without creating much unemployment rises if well used.

...

Can you please explain how deliberately causing unemployment (how noble!) redistributes wealth? Who loses wealth, and who gains it? (And just to preempt you, please keep in mind that by not having a job, it is NOT Dan who is on the receiving end of any supposed wealth redistribution.)

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Findeton
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July 06, 2011, 05:47:21 AM
 #79

Hold on for the ride.  You shall live to see your high quality socialized healthcare system utterly collapse.  You will not understand why, and your countrymen will blame government corruption or whatever else, but will also not understand it.  I understand it, and it was predictable a decade ago, probably more.  I'm not making a prediction, for a prediction would imply a possibility of error.  This is inevitable, and Spain is already long past the point of reform, even if that were politically possible.  You will watch as Greece & Ireland proceed your nation, but your turn shall come.

I shall repeat that the reasons for our high unemployment rate (debt is not our problem) have nothing to do with things like universal healthcare. We pay way less (net) than you per citizen for healthcare. We also pay a smaller percentage of our sallary for healthcare.  We also pay a smaller percentage of our GDP per capita for healthcare. And still, our healthcare system gives in return a better service. So that's not the problem, our universal healthcare is more economically efficient, cheaper, and gives in return a better service.

Can you please explain how deliberately causing unemployment (how noble!) redistributes wealth? Who loses wealth, and who gains it? (And just to preempt you, please keep in mind that by not having a job, it is NOT Dan who is on the receiving end of any supposed wealth redistribution.)

Either employers, some of the better paid workers or the whole society will lose wealth. Those who get to do the worst paid jobs will gain wealth.

Banning slavery also causes unemployment. But you should agree that nowadays people with the worst paid jobs are in a better situation (inflation adjusted).

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myrkul
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July 06, 2011, 05:57:43 AM
 #80

Either employers, some of the better paid workers or the whole society will lose wealth. Those who get to do the worst paid jobs will gain wealth.

No. just no. Those who would be doing the worst paid jobs get nothing, and the other workers will have to pick up the slack. I have been one of those who had to pick up the slack, so kindly stop spouting your socialist fallacies.

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