Is the first indistinguishable Casascius fake only a matter of time?

[gentlemand]

Anyone with a bit of time and skills can take a publicly findable address and glue it on a carefully made fake coin.

Now so many of them have swirled around between owners, the trail is muddy and it doesn't seem to cross many minds to verify very often anyway and often it's impossible anyway. On Ebay most people don't know their story regardless.

Since your fakery can now net you a bitcoin or nearly $20,000 which may well go undiscovered for years or forever the temptation is certainly there.

In these circumstances what happens to the value of original coins if they can't be trusted without peeling or a chain of custody?

[1714500281]

1714500281

[dazedfool]

One safeguard for Cas coins is the PGP-signed list Mike released of all his coins. When in doubt compare against this:

https://www.casascius.com/fulllist.txt

[gentlemand]

One safeguard for Cas coins is the PGP-signed list Mike released of all his coins. When in doubt compare against this:

https://www.casascius.com/fulllist.txt

That's just an address list for any scammer to harvest to glue on their fake coins. They may as well do it as potential buyers can do it too and feel 'reassured' by it. The only way you can be sure is to peel it or have a bulletproof chain of custody, which the majority of coins won't have. 

[wheelz1200]

Anyone with a bit of time and skills can take a publicly findable address and glue it on a carefully made fake coin.

Now so many of them have swirled around between owners, the trail is muddy and it doesn't seem to cross many minds to verify very often anyway and often it's impossible anyway. On Ebay most people don't know their story regardless.

Since your fakery can now net you a bitcoin or nearly $20,000 which may well go undiscovered for years or forever the temptation is certainly there.

In these circumstances what happens to the value of original coins if they can't be trusted without peeling or a chain of custody?

This topic comes up every now and again.  There are fakes all over the world so it's not out of the realm.  The difficult part will be an exact replica of the holo and how the holo looks.  Will be a lot easier for a new person in the scene to get duped.

Brings to light a possible service, to have someone authenticate that exact coin, possibly an expert (would assume there are a few here even).  I know there are holes to that but makes another hoop to go through.

[gentlemand]

This topic comes up every now and again.  There are fakes all over the world so it's not out of the realm.  The difficult part will be an exact replica of the holo and how the holo looks.  Will be a lot easier for a new person in the scene to get duped.

Brings to light a possible service, to have someone authenticate that exact coin, possibly an expert (would assume there are a few here even).  I know there are holes to that but makes another hoop to go through.

I remember seeing a photo of a fake a few years ago. It was mediocre. The font didn't even match. I wonder how much effort went into holo and coin design when they were only supposed to be a bit of fun and sold for a few bucks. It's now a huge incentive to spend the time to get the faking right.

[AT101ET]

Now I can understand why nubbins kept the PGP signed coins. I don't know if they justify a higher premium but there was definitely good reason to do so.
Another way would be to have your coin graded and slabbed. The ref number can be checked to find the date of the grading so although not a perfect solution, it adds a dimension of credibility.

Having worked with manufacturers in the past, I know that quite a few don't keep to common confidentiality and often publicise things that they shouldn't. In terms of hologram production, the manufacturer provides the artwork which needs to be confirmed before they produce a hologram master which is used in the mass production. In order for any fake/replica coins to be made, the hologram master would have to be identical or very similar (to the untrained eye) to the ones found on all Cas coins. It's definitely not an impossible task and I'm sure quite a few manufacturers in the Far East would be willing to do it, but it won't necessarily be easy.
The only other way I see this happening is if someone were to find Casascius's manufacture and pay them for another run using the original master/artwork. I assume Mike took all precautions to avoid this but you can never be sure (as I have personally seen) with manufacturers in the Far East. (Note, this is not always the case. Many do take confidentiality seriously and would never dream of doing this).

I think now more than ever people need to start using Uberbills more than before. If we can create our own chain by confirming ownership of certain coins then we can avoid something like this from happening in the future by being able to confirm with the owner of said specific coins if they are still in possession or have sold on etc...

[wheelz1200]

Now I can understand why nubbins kept the PGP signed coins. I don't know if they justify a higher premium but there was definitely good reason to do so.
Another way would be to have your coin graded and slabbed. The ref number can be checked to find the date of the grading so although not a perfect solution, it adds a dimension of credibility.

Having worked with manufacturers in the past, I know that quite a few don't keep to common confidentiality and often publicise things that they shouldn't. In terms of hologram production, the manufacturer provides the artwork which needs to be confirmed before they produce a hologram master which is used in the mass production. In order for any fake/replica coins to be made, the hologram master would have to be identical or very similar (to the untrained eye) to the ones found on all Cas coins. It's definitely not an impossible task and I'm sure quite a few manufacturers in the Far East would be willing to do it, but it won't necessarily be easy.
The only other way I see this happening is if someone were to find Casascius's manufacture and pay them for another run using the original master/artwork. I assume Mike took all precautions to avoid this but you can never be sure (as I have personally seen) with manufacturers in the Far East. (Note, this is not always the case. Many do take confidentiality seriously and would never dream of doing this).

I think now more than ever people need to start using Uberbills more than before. If we can create our own chain by confirming ownership of certain coins then we can avoid something like this from happening in the future by being able to confirm with the owner of said specific coins if they are still in possession or have sold on etc...

Yeah those docs are helpful.  If someone starts an authentication business now it might be niche but would give an extra layer of credibility for people.

[Hellot]

Now I can understand why nubbins kept the PGP signed coins. I don't know if they justify a higher premium but there was definitely good reason to do so.
Another way would be to have your coin graded and slabbed. The ref number can be checked to find the date of the grading so although not a perfect solution, it adds a dimension of credibility.

A fake ANACS slab should be easier to counterfeit than the coin itself.

[Raize]

Even with good equipment, I find it unlikely someone could make a fake one that would past the average owner's muster. Several of us are probably quite familiar what these look like, both tarnished and untarnished and would not be fooled, even by a good fake. Some of us have even opened these ourselves before.

Years ago, I gave away about a dozen of the 2011 error 1BTC coins to friends and family and have told them several times that if they go to sell them they should let me know, then reference me and my forum name so that I can personally vouch for the authenticity of their coin. I like to think it might help, but I don't know for sure if it did because so often it's hard to tell if the legit sales on here are actually legit.

The only legit sale I know of was one I recently (this last summer) had a friend do on Ebay because he insisted he sell his coin.

[Astro]

A lot of us anticipated this issue early on and inserted proof of age hashes into the blockchain.  Personally, I only went to this trouble for my error coins, but at this point I'm glad I did.

[nubbins]

Now I can understand why nubbins kept the PGP signed coins. I don't know if they justify a higher premium but there was definitely good reason to do so.

Thanks!

...but to be clear, you're not sure if additional proof of veracity justifies a premium?

[Zyro]

I've documented as best I can where I got mine, including all the relevant threads and PM messages from the original owner.  But even that might make people skeptical.  It certainly does worry me.