The biggest thief in the Bitcoinica debacle? MtGox

[genjix]

I hope that's not Patrick.

[MemoryDealers]

Roger Ver is representing himself and his buddy Tihan. He didn't like the releasing of the code, because he wanted a piece of pie. Despite the pie actually being shit. But that doesn't matter when $$$. This is why Patrick is hesitant I think. I don't know the specifics, but the sentiments are clear.

Amir,  you are making things up.
I didn't like the releasing of the code because it resulted in another 40,000 BTC and $40,000 being stolen!
All I wanted was my 25,000 BTC back.

Had you and the Intersango team accepted the offer,  every single person except for myself,  and 3 others would have gotten %100 of their money back,  and this mess would have been an ancient memory in the history of Bitcoin.

[genjix]

Amir,  you are making things up.
I didn't like the releasing of the code because it resulted in another 40,000 BTC and $40,000 being stolen!
All I wanted was my 25,000 BTC back.

Putting the site back up is unethical. And who wanted to buy the site? What would they do afterwards?

[genjix]

This is not a productive thread for me. I can be contacted via PM if anyone has any questions or needs anything.

[dancingnancy]

Wow, this goes way deeper than I thought originally.
 
Wouldn't it be great if we put all this behind us and just got Mt Gox to transfer back the money to the creditors before Gox goes down? 

I can promise you that not one person cares (from our perspective) if Zhou Tong's cousin's friend's sister's uncle stole the coins.  Just don't care about it anymore.  Absolutely do not fucking care, don't even need an apology. 

All someone has to do is decide to be the bigger person here. 

[ninjarobot]

Wouldn't it be great if we put all this behind us and just got Mt Gox to transfer back the money to the creditors before Gox goes down?  

It certainly would. Not going to happen though, because everybody is still interested in playing their sad little games at the cost of the creditors.

[dancingnancy]

Wouldn't it be great if we put all this behind us and just got Mt Gox to transfer back the money to the creditors before Gox goes down? 

It certainly would. Not going to happen though, because everybody is still interested in playing their sad little games at the cost of the creditors.

It does seem like that. Also gox is not at all helping.

So, I guess this sounds like it is going nowhere again?  Every couple months we raise a fuss on the service announcement subforum, and that is that.

I guess I will talk to my old BLaw professor and see what I can come up with as far as a name goes, or if it is even feasible considering the fucked up situation we are already in. 

I REALLY REALLY think we need to get these funds out of gox before its too late.  Even if those funds go back to another "trusted" source.

[icicle]

I have really low hopes in the liquidator, especially after they said that they would consider bitcoin worth 10$ and being uncommunicative for one year or so.

I asked taslim very early if they would consider bitcoins at a currency and to confirm that they were not valuating bitcoins 10$ but would consider claims in bitcoins as bitcoins, and he never answered me. Now it is not even this guy anymore at the liquidator office...

Dark,

That is because although liquidation is the approach most lawyers will be familiar with, criminal seizure and forfeiture is actually the way to get your property back. Liquidation returns cents on the dollar, forfeiture returns actual property in its original form.

You need your property back, right? Your bitcoins?

I'm working on the Intersango disaster as Strateman has locked me out of my account even though he knows I need the bitcoins to fund treatment for my daughter's dog. I am going for an actual seizure of actual bitcoins. Seizure and forfeiture is pretty routine in cases of embezzlement or theft - but when you are missing huge sums of money everyone directs you to a civil lawyer who knows how to do only one thing - how to sue. These types of lawyers do not know anything about how the police and the courts can seize stolen goods and give them back to their owners. They aren't going to tell you they don't know because, among other things, they don't even know that they don't know.

Even if a civil lawyer did know, in theory, about seizure and forfeiture - it is widely assumed by the legal system that fiat compensates for anything, and the importance or feasibility of getting your bitcoins back for you will be downplayed by the lawyer during his or her sales pitch. They would rather have a guaranteed $11 per coin than a chancy $500. That is, you will be robbed again.

My plan is this. Get the Intersango crew arrested for theft. Strateman is in San Francisco. Taaki is in Broadstairs, Kent, Norman is in Belgrade, Serbia. (See? I am already doing better than the Cartmell lawyers!)

From the evidence I have, and his own public statements, just Strateman will do for now. Once it is made known what a huge sum of money it is (when the Bitcoinica customers are considered too), then I don't think we will have any trouble getting the attention of law enforcement. Especially considering they will get to keep their share of any unclaimed funds. California is lucky to get $50 million in a year. I think we could guarantee them that in a single haul, if 1) bitcoins go up in price much more 2) as many people as I think have given up their bitcoins for lost.

They might crawl out of the woodwork again, but see where I am going with this?

I am busy today writing the letters that will set this in motion and I need something. I don't have time to go looking through the forums for where I found it.

Can anyone tell me how many bitcoins the Bitcoinica customers are down? The amount of cash too, if it is known or there is a good guess.

[dancingnancy]

I have really low hopes in the liquidator, especially after they said that they would consider bitcoin worth 10$ and being uncommunicative for one year or so.

I asked taslim very early if they would consider bitcoins at a currency and to confirm that they were not valuating bitcoins 10$ but would consider claims in bitcoins as bitcoins, and he never answered me. Now it is not even this guy anymore at the liquidator office...

Dark,

That is because although liquidation is the approach most lawyers will be familiar with, criminal seizure and forfeiture is actually the way to get your property back. Liquidation returns cents on the dollar, forfeiture returns actual property in its original form.

You need your property back, right? Your bitcoins?

I'm working on the Intersango disaster as Strateman has locked me out of my account even though he knows I need the bitcoins to fund treatment for my daughter's dog. I am going for an actual seizure of actual bitcoins. Seizure and forfeiture is pretty routine in cases of embezzlement or theft - but when you are missing huge sums of money everyone directs you to a civil lawyer who knows how to do only one thing - how to sue. These types of lawyers do not know anything about how the police and the courts can seize stolen goods and give them back to their owners. They aren't going to tell you they don't know because, among other things, they don't even know that they don't know.

Even if a civil lawyer did know, in theory, about seizure and forfeiture - it is widely assumed by the legal system that fiat compensates for anything, and the importance or feasibility of getting your bitcoins back for you will be downplayed by the lawyer during his or her sales pitch. They would rather have a guaranteed $11 per coin than a chancy $500. That is, you will be robbed again.

My plan is this. Get the Intersango crew arrested for theft. Strateman is in San Francisco. Taaki is in Broadstairs, Kent, Norman is in Belgrade, Serbia. (See? I am already doing better than the Cartmell lawyers!)

From the evidence I have, and his own public statements, just Strateman will do for now. Once it is made known what a huge sum of money it is (when the Bitcoinica customers are considered too), then I don't think we will have any trouble getting the attention of law enforcement. Especially considering they will get to keep their share of any unclaimed funds. California is lucky to get $50 million in a year. I think we could guarantee them that in a single haul, if 1) bitcoins go up in price much more 2) as many people as I think have given up their bitcoins for lost.

They might crawl out of the woodwork again, but see where I am going with this?

I am busy today writing the letters that will set this in motion and I need something. I don't have time to go looking through the forums for where I found it.

Can anyone tell me how many bitcoins the Bitcoinica customers are down? The amount of cash too, if it is known or there is a good guess.

We are downt A LOT, especially at the valuation today .  I am interested in what you have to say.  I am done waiting as well - and I know others feel the same way.  I just do not have the cash to start something on my own.

[icicle]

And the beauty of this plan is you won't need more than the price of a few stamps

[ninjarobot]

Can anyone tell me how many bitcoins the Bitcoinica customers are down? The amount of cash too, if it is known or there is a good guess.

The Bitcoinica account at MtGox should hold at least 64,485 BTC and 134,000 USD. There are 201 customers with claims.

...Of course this is only what is left after the Linode (46,653 BTC), Rackspace (18,547 BTC) and MtGox (40,000 BTC + 40,000 USD) 'hacks' of of which the first two were supposed to have been covered by the 'investor' but this also turned out to be a lie.

[dancingnancy]

AFAIK, or heard, PhantomCircuit has the Mt Gox password/key to all our coins.  He seems like a good place to start.  I am willing to throw in some cash to make this happen, but my funds are limited at this time. 

[icicle]

Can anyone tell me how many bitcoins the Bitcoinica customers are down? The amount of cash too, if it is known or there is a good guess.

The Bitcoinica account at MtGox should hold at least 64,485 BTC and 134,000 USD. There are 201 customers with claims.

...Of course this is only what is left after the Linode (46,653 BTC), Rackspace (18,547 BTC) and MtGox (40,000 BTC + 40,000 USD) 'hacks' of of which the first two were supposed to have been covered by the 'investor' but this also turned out to be a lie.

Interesting, thank you. So $50,000,000 is about right. (Leaving out the MtGox hack, rounding down the bitcoins, and valuing at $400 per coin).

Good enough for now.

[icicle]

AFAIK, or heard, PhantomCircuit has the Mt Gox password/key to all our coins.  He seems like a good place to start.  I am willing to throw in some cash to make this happen, but my funds are limited at this time. 

Don't worry, I'll front you the money for some stamps and certified postage

I'm making light of this, but if there will be any substantial money needed, it shouldn't be until someone needs to fund a flight to San Francisco to give evidence etc, or there might be unanticipated problems at the payout stage. Maybe the government will try to steal the cash for itself. All sorts of things might happen, its just that I know they surely will happen unless someone throws a spanner in the works.

I can see it. Ninja sees it. The Money is lining up to appropriate itself more Money, by default.

I'm thinking, erm..

Not so fast.. in theory, there should be processes available to make justice for all, hidden away. The founding fathers weren't idiots.

The free market is usually geared towards defending against seizure and forfeiture and that's where the expensive expertise is, but it is up against all the resources of the state. The danger is going to come just when it looks like victory is achieved, but at that point, I should think we can get someone to take the case on contingency.

That is, we can afford to do this, easily. What we can't afford is blind trust in anyone. At all.

[icicle]

This is what got my attention, when I was looking for a solution. California's seizure and forfeiture laws.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=484-502.9

If anyone wants to give it a good eyeballing, feel free, in case I missed something.

From looking at Strateman's defence in Cartmell et al, the first thing he is likely to claim is lack of jurisdiction and say this should be an English case. Therefore... Anyone know anyone resident in California who lost anything to Bitcoinica or (preferably) Intersango?

The fact that the person sitting on our property is in California should be enough, but I'd like more than enough.

[ninjarobot]

And voila. Fait accompli. Congratulations Mark. Enjoy those 64,532 BTC that rightfully belong to Bitcoinica customers.

[dancingnancy]

jesus.. the only thing that has happened to me in over 3+ years in btc is just getting fucking railroaded and skull fucked.  first by zhou tong and now mr frappacino

[ninjarobot]

jesus.. the only thing that has happened to me in over 3+ years in btc is just getting fucking railroaded and skull fucked.  first by zhou tong and now mr frappacino

Welcome to Bitcoin! No regulations. Railroading to the left, skullfucking to the right. Enjoy your stay!

[maxxoccupancy]

This is why I've been saying since Bitcoin was $6: We need to have craigslist-style flea markets--not exchanges.  You post your Buy and Sell prices on the site, and other traders contact you and the escrow guys.

[Icicle2]

Would you be willing to fly directly to him, get the password, drop the lawsuit and manage the distribution of the coins personally? I think we should avoid lawyers and that guy in NZ if we can. Is this reasonable?

I'm willing to do this,  but ultimately,  I think someone who isn't a Bitcoinica creditor should be the one to decide the distribution of the coins.

Up until now, Patrick has refused to meet with me in person,  but someone using his return address has sent me strange / threatening letters in the mail:

https://i.imgur.com/rcOjp24.jpg

I'm so quick on the draw I only noticed this a year later. I just forwarded it to his local police. Hope that's OK.

If you still have it, or any others, I'd be interested.

He really is taking this Supervillan thing seriously.