2013-07-23 Wired.com - Why the Only Real Way to Buy Bitcoins Is on the Streets

[Stephen Gornick]

Why the Only Real Way to Buy Bitcoins Is on the Streets
by Robert McMillan

Welcome to the quickest, most private way to buy the internet’s most successful digital currency: in-person and face-to-face.
-
Buttonwood meetups started in New York a few months ago and fanned out to San Francisco and Los Angeles. Buttonwood is an allusion to the May 17, 1792 agreement, struck under a buttonwood tree at 68 Wall Street, that set down the rules for what became the New York Stock Exchange.
-
After some haggling, Light types Copley’s Bitcoin address into his mobile phone and transfers just over half a Bitcoin ($50) to Copley’s digital wallet [for payment of silver bullion].
-
He used to buy and sell on a (temporarily shuttered) marketplace called Bitinstant. But a few months ago, 'it started to ask for too much of my information,' the student says. Given the nature of his business, he wants to buy Bitcoins without being tracked.
-
These are the kinds of deals that have regulators worried.
-
It’s traditionally been tough to quickly buy Bitcoins with U.S. dollars, and recently it’s become tougher.  [...] That [regulation has] led to a pretty healthy off-the-books market for Bitcoin traders. [...] Buyers and sellers can also hook up over Internet Relay Chat at #bitcoin-otc
-
Buyer’s Best Friend will give you Bitcoins back for cash, much like you can get cash back from a credit card, but you are supposed to purchase something first.
-
Though trading an obscure crypto currency may sound very modern, the whole transaction has a decidedly old-fashioned and human flavor to it.

 - http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/07/buttonwood

[1713542432]

1713542432

[Stephen Gornick]

There is the weekly (Monday) Satoshi Square meetup in NYC (yesterday's was hosted at EVR).
 - https://twitter.com/joshrossi  <-- For info on location
 - https://twitter.com/search?q=%23satoshisquare&src=hash

Here's the Project Buttonwood trading site for NYC:
 - http://buttonwood.btcshares.com/

The next L.A. Satoshi Square meetup is this Thursday (July 25th, 2013) downtown (Grand Park):
 - http://spelunk.in/2013/06/29/satoshi-square-la-july-edition/

The Buttonwood San Francisco occurs weekly.  The next event is Thursday, July 25th, 2013:
 - http://www.meetup.com/Buttonwood-SF-P2P-Cryptocurrency-Trading

The first Buttonwood-style event in Berlin will be July 29th:
 - https://www.facebook.com/events/495971010475226/

The first Miami Satoshi Square will be today (July 23rd, 2013):
 - http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1iu8l7/tomorrow_miamis_first_satoshi_square_at_bayside/

The first Toronto Satoshi Square will be next Monday, July 29th, 2013:
 - http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1iudha/reminder_toronto_satoshi_square_next_monday

There is a weekly trading event, "Talk 'N Trade" in San Diego (Tuesdays):
 - http://www.meetup.com/Bitcoin-Traders-of-San-Diego

[Update: And now also Singapore:

Singapore's 1st Buttonwood - meetup event Aug 1
 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=264180

 - http://www.meetup.com/BitcoinSingapore ]

[Update 2: And Panama:

https://twitter.com/satoshi_square/status/384811183657582592 ]

[Update 3: Reportedly these have occurred in Helsinki, Finland and Winnipeg, ON, Canada also.   Please share the link if anyone knows of these or any others I've missed.]

[mjr]

I remember when I posted the first event here, and couldn't get it off the noob boards, lol.

[atariguy]

Unfortunately, this kind of press is actually not good for bitcoin. It gives it a bad reputation.

[vokain]

Unfortunately, this kind of press is actually not good for bitcoin. It gives it a bad reputation.

I don't think so, the author actually understands that bitcoin is unstoppable because of this

[TraderTimm]

Unfortunately, this kind of press is actually not good for bitcoin. It gives it a bad reputation.

Actually, it is good for bitcoin - because it shows how a decentralized trading pit can overcome most restrictions placed on the legacy banking system links.

Sure, banks make things convenient if you're forced to use their system, but it isn't the only way.

[ThickAsThieves]

- http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/07/buttonwood

[atariguy]

Unfortunately, this kind of press is actually not good for bitcoin. It gives it a bad reputation.

I don't think so, the author actually understands that bitcoin is unstoppable because of this

The author might understand that, but it makes it so that anyone that's actually heard of bitcoin thinks it's something shady. I was telling a coworker about it a couple weeks ago, and he said he had heard the government had shut it down. 

[mjr]

I disagree with this article so much. As being someone that sells a lot of bitcoins to pay for monthly expenses and not for a profit or business. I use many things I use an exchange because that is by far the easiest way to sell at one shot, but that takes awhile for you to use the cash. Local bitcoins I have done it a few times, it is the most time consuming, and scary I always bring my friend who is a cop just incase. Buttonwood, wouldn't do anything for me, I find it to be something that would be just for fun in my case cause when I sell bitcoins I need to sell a lot, and I don't see many people their even looking to buy 1 or 2 bitcoins but rather buying in extremely small quantities and I think that is why the article says they are good, but for most people you want to sell or buy alot in a single shot or over the course of time. Buttonwood shouldn't be hailed as a great place to buy or sell bitcoins, cause then whales are going to say "Look at these kids playing with their digital currency in the streets".

hmmmm....you have more than $15,000 in monthly expenses? That is what we did 2 weeks ago. $10,000? That is what we did yesterday...we move volume, and more importantly, you are getting linked in with people, forming trading relationships. If I need cash, I can call Owen, or Dustin, or Kirill and they will buy my coins, and vice versa if I need coins quick, I can always tap into this network. Also, as this paradigm spreads, and more people start doing this, the network will evolve. I have friends in LA, and across the world, I can sell their coins for them here, and vice versa. If the two parties are willing, they can work out terms of settlement on their own.

Satoshi Square in New York is getting very close (we may have passed it already...) to $100,000 in volume. Now this is not anything compared to Mt. Gox, but do you know how many times we have halted trading? 0. How many times have we frozen accounts? 0

The response has been overwhelmingly positive. Even Jeremias Kangas from Localbitcoins.com has said that it makes sense.

That being said, it is not an all or nothing proposition. If you have a business level of commerce, perhaps you need a professional, enterprise solution. But does one guy who wants to buy one coin, who just heard of bitcoin for the first time, really need to wait 2 weeks for approval on mt. gox? I say no. That is a huge and very inconvenient barrier to entry. Many people aren't willing to give up credentials or even link their bank account in any way. Point is that this is necessary, and that is being shown.

[mjr]

Also, who cares what whales think? Buttonwood exchanges ARE a great place to buy bitcoins. We don't need to bring cops with us there, there are already cops in the park! Young couples bring their infants with them, and buy a couple coins because they heard about it. I understand the reticence to meet up with a stranger for a financial transaction. This avoids that, you are meeting a group of 30-40 people. There is, as the casascius coins say, Strength in Numbers. You get better prices, because there is competition.

If you want to learn more about it, meet established people in the bitcoin space, or just want to grab a coin or two, there is no easier way. As the first post showed, this is spreading. It makes sense to people in a way that the pseudo-trader, wall street wannabe methods don't. I am not saying that there isn't room for regulated, professional exchanges, but I don't think we should put ALL our eggs in that basket. It is much easier to set up these networks now, while we don't have a problem, than to find out you need them one day, and have nowhere to turn.

If I seem passionate about this, it is because I am. I believe in the distributed, decentralized model. That is why we are in bitcoin in the first place, no? The ability to transact individual to individual, with no middle man, is that not touted as one of the biggest benefits of bitcoin? We have new people showing up every week. Building community, building the bitcoin identity is at least as important as providing access to the currency. Bitcoin is an emerging market, and when you get this many talented, bright people together, ideas start flying.

If anyone wants to discuss further, I'm available.

[mjr]

Unfortunately, this kind of press is actually not good for bitcoin. It gives it a bad reputation.

I don't think so, the author actually understands that bitcoin is unstoppable because of this

The author might understand that, but it makes it so that anyone that's actually heard of bitcoin thinks it's something shady. I was telling a coworker about it a couple weeks ago, and he said he had heard the government had shut it down. 

Most people wonder who those group of young professionals are...not shady at all, and most of the people who show up feel very comfortable and safe.

[odolvlobo]

I thought it was a great article. It gives bitcoin trading a sense of adventure. The "off-the-books" references may turn off some people, but overall I don't think the article makes face-to-face trading look shady as much as it makes it seem up-and-coming.

I trade a lot bitcoins through LocalBitcoins, and I think it is easily the fastest and most convenient way for a person new to Bitcoin to obtain bitcoins. I spend a lot of time explaining things and I do it mostly as a way to promote and support Bitcoin. I certainly don't make much money -- most of my fee goes to Starbucks, actually.

[mjr]

meet established people in the bitcoin space

How come I recognize no names at any of these places? They must be super established in bitcoin, if no one knows who they are. LMAO Take it from someone that lives in NYC and has actually met really established people in bitcoins and in the tech world. I am sorry but this just made me laugh. 30-40 people and no one knows one of them. LMAO Next you will say Satoshi is showing up.

Yeah, you are totally right...Charlie Shrem, Fred Wilson (invested in CoinBase), guys from Coinapult, lots of knowledgeable people. Lawyers like Marco Santori, Chairman of the Bitcoin Foundation's Regulatory Affairs Committee, guys from Hedge Funds, many members of the press, many representatives of the bitangel investment fund. It is very easy to be dismissive, and I don't mind if you don't like it, or are not interested. Just saying, some people DO find value there, and for them, it continues to be a welcome meetup.

[mjr]

I thought it was a great article. It gives bitcoin trading a sense of adventure. The "off-the-books" references may turn off some people, but overall I don't think the article makes face-to-face trading look shady as much as it makes it seem up-and-coming.

I trade a lot bitcoins through LocalBitcoins, and I think it is easily the fastest and most convenient way for a person new to Bitcoin to obtain bitcoins. I spend a lot of time explaining things and I do it mostly as a way to promote and support Bitcoin. I certainly don't make much money -- most of my fee goes to Starbucks, actually.

I agree, I know quite a few localbitcoiners, and they travel all across brooklyn, providing access. One of them comes to buttonwood to "re-up" after selling to all these people. It is useful to have pools of liquidity.

[thezerg]

meet established people in the bitcoin space

How come I recognize no names at any of these places? They must be super established in bitcoin, if no one knows who they are. LMAO Take it from someone that lives in NYC and has actually met really established people in bitcoins and in the tech world. I am sorry but this just made me laugh. 30-40 people and no one knows one of them. LMAO Next you will say Satoshi is showing up.

WTF is your problem?!  If you don't want to exchange BTC IRL then don't go.  Nobody needs EV to show flush with 100k BTC from the SD sale -- there's not that kind of volume.  "Established" in this context simply means consistently willing and able to trade coin.

Don't sh*t on other people's fun just b/c it doesn't fit your personal needs.

[mjr]

I don't know people who carry around $1k in dollars to park with strangers.

Luckily, we do...

One guy recently came and bought $10,000. By himself. I cannot tell you how many people have had more than $1,000. That is not a lot to carry...

We are in the middle of a public space, surrounded by police in broad daylight. I never said (in fact, I explicitly said the opposite) that EVERYONE should use this for EVERYTHING. I said that for RETAIL CONSUMERS, who aren't interested in brokerage accounts, it is the easiest and fastest way to buy or sell. For institutional investors, obviously they may benefit from institutional exchanges, and those exist to service them. Again, to each their own, the fact that there are now 5 others, says that many people are seeing the value. In the same way that OTC can facilitate large trades based on a WoT, that is already forming, and hopefully will be formalized soon. I'm sorry that we don't merit your attention, I think that we will survive. I for one, am not anonymous, you know exactly who I am. I can't say the same for you however...

[thezerg]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but at the same time you are being very discouraging simply because Buttonwood does not fit your needs. We Get It. Your debate is not constructive, it is belittling.

Guess what?  It doesn't fit my needs either... but unlike you, I can imagine people who would find it very convenient.  Cash is a simple solution to the BTC fiat impedance mismatch.

And chew on this; I'll bet that this service is distributing coins to more newbies then average, and that a much greater % of the sales in this market move the coins off the market (to small hoarders) as compared to an exchange like Gox.

[mjr]

meet established people in the bitcoin space

How come I recognize no names at any of these places? They must be super established in bitcoin, if no one knows who they are. LMAO Take it from someone that lives in NYC and has actually met really established people in bitcoins and in the tech world. I am sorry but this just made me laugh. 30-40 people and no one knows one of them. LMAO Next you will say Satoshi is showing up.

Yeah, you are totally right...Charlie Shrem, Fred Wilson (invested in CoinBase), guys from Coinapult, lots of knowledgeable people. Lawyers like Marco Santori, Chairman of the Bitcoin Foundation's Regulatory Affairs Committee, guys from Hedge Funds, many members of the press, many representatives of the bitangel investment fund. It is very easy to be dismissive, and I don't mind if you don't like it, or are not interested. Just saying, some people DO find value there, and for them, it continues to be a welcome meetup.

People that show up once isn't that a great bounce rate LMAO. I am not saying it is bad, but you think it is a serious exchange it isn't. It is a great way to show bitcoins off, which I bet why most people show up, but to think your going to be a serious exchange is a bad idea to have. I am surprised Fred Wilson didn't blog about it, but I guess he didn't think it was that important to dedicate a blog post which is bad I would have loved to see his thoughts on it.

Also I am with a hedge fund manager who loves bitcoin been in for 6 months and he never heard of buttonwood until now and he even agrees. It is a great way to make a name for yourself but you're putting too much energy into something that is just a demo of bitcoin at best.

meet established people in the bitcoin space

How come I recognize no names at any of these places? They must be super established in bitcoin, if no one knows who they are. LMAO Take it from someone that lives in NYC and has actually met really established people in bitcoins and in the tech world. I am sorry but this just made me laugh. 30-40 people and no one knows one of them. LMAO Next you will say Satoshi is showing up.

WTF is your problem?!  If you don't want to exchange BTC IRL then don't go.  Nobody needs EV to show flush with 100k BTC from the SD sale -- there's not that kind of volume.  "Established" in this context simply means consistently willing and able to trade coin.

Don't sh*t on other people's fun just b/c it doesn't fit your personal needs.

I wrote my opinion and me and the creator are having a debate, what is wrong with that? I forgot, if you disagree with someone in bitcoin community your automatically against bitcoins. I bet you are in the foundation, how is that working out for you. LMAO

I don't know people who carry around $1k in dollars to park with strangers.

Luckily, we do...

One guy recently came and bought $10,000. By himself. I cannot tell you how many people have had more than $1,000. That is not a lot to carry...

We are in the middle of a public space, surrounded by police in broad daylight. I never said (in fact, I explicitly said the opposite) that EVERYONE should use this for EVERYTHING. I said that for RETAIL CONSUMERS, who aren't interested in brokerage accounts, it is the easiest and fastest way to buy or sell. For institutional investors, obviously they may benefit from institutional exchanges, and those exist to service them. Again, to each their own, the fact that there are now 5 others, says that many people are seeing the value. In the same way that OTC can facilitate large trades based on a WoT, that is already forming, and hopefully will be formalized soon. I'm sorry that we don't merit your attention, I think that we will survive. I for one, am not anonymous, you know exactly who I am. I can't say the same for you however...

So one person provided the $10k liquidity. As I said, great demo for bitcoin, not a serious exchange.

wow, you really have done not even a google search huh? http://www.avc.com/a_vc/2013/06/bitcoin-bits.html

and that was the day we did $15,000. I already mentioned that we had two other $10,000 days. And you seem to think that I am starting the latest mt. gox competitor, I am not. This is not an "exchange" in the sense you mean. This is a place to build community, and provide liquidity, instantly. Without all the bullshit you get when you deal with exchanges. In that respect, it does what it is meant to beautifully. There is more to a market than volume and transactions. There are people and relationships, and while Mt. Gox and other exchanges have neglected that, this model embraces that.  

Seriously, I'm glad you are so cool. Mircea says:

(5:17:42 PM) mircea_popescu: mjr_ nice answer.
(5:18:04 PM) mircea_popescu: gweedo is a sort of tradefortress. young guy, joined < 1 year ago, managed to mauintain interest
(5:18:30 PM) mircea_popescu: which'd put him a step above the average six week old noob,
(5:18:35 PM) mircea_popescu: and two steps above the random nut.

So the fact that he has heard of you is actually impressive. You didn't come up much when we were in Romania though at the conference...so I would pipe down just a little. I've tried to stay civil, but you seem to be trolling. This is a means to provide access, it is a place to get instant liquidity. A place to build community. It is not meant for institutions. It is meant for individuals. That has been clearly and expressly stated from the beginning.

I mean of course you are entitled to your opinions, but why do you care so much? As someone else beautifully put it:

WTF is your problem?!  If you don't want to exchange BTC IRL then don't go.  Nobody needs EV to show flush with 100k BTC from the SD sale -- there's not that kind of volume.  "Established" in this context simply means consistently willing and able to trade coin.

Don't sh*t on other people's fun just b/c it doesn't fit your personal needs.

[mjr]

And I do welcome the opportunity to discuss it, but there is little point in discussing why fish aren't dogs...

You do seem quite antagonistic, and I don't mind that, but I think you could pick actually valid points to argue. Like, what about security? It only meets once a week? etc.

Those are issues that have been looked into. Things are growing, and in the same way that bitcoin is not now what it will one day be, neither is satoshi square. I think the other people understand the purpose behind it. Let's say hypothetically that a large exchange stops you from being able to wire dollars to yourself. This is an alternative.

If you have anything constructive or interesting to say, I am here and willing to discuss other than that, I have a lot of work to get to.

[MPOE-PR]

hmmmm....you have more than $15,000 in monthly expenses? That is what we did 2 weeks ago. $10,000? That is what we did yesterday...we move volume, and more importantly, you are getting linked in with people, forming trading relationships. If I need cash, I can call Owen, or Dustin, or Kirill and they will buy my coins, and vice versa if I need coins quick, I can always tap into this network. Also, as this paradigm spreads, and more people start doing this, the network will evolve. I have friends in LA, and across the world, I can sell their coins for them here, and vice versa. If the two parties are willing, they can work out terms of settlement on their own.

Satoshi Square in New York is getting very close (we may have passed it already...) to $100,000 in volume. Now this is not anything compared to Mt. Gox, but do you know how many times we have halted trading? 0. How many times have we frozen accounts? 0

The response has been overwhelmingly positive. Even Jeremias Kangas from Localbitcoins.com has said that it makes sense.

That being said, it is not an all or nothing proposition. If you have a business level of commerce, perhaps you need a professional, enterprise solution. But does one guy who wants to buy one coin, who just heard of bitcoin for the first time, really need to wait 2 weeks for approval on mt. gox? I say no. That is a huge and very inconvenient barrier to entry. Many people aren't willing to give up credentials or even link their bank account in any way. Point is that this is necessary, and that is being shown.

This kid is going places, I say.