HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s

[User705]

The mood tells me that one "single" lawyer for HashFast won't be enough. Shall we see how many are incoming...

The sad part is all the lawyers are paid for with your money.    
It sucks to say this but realistically the smart thing to do is to rush over there and agree to whatever just to get some sort of money back on the spot.  Otherwise you are likely to get nothing or less then nothing since the fees you'll to your lawyers will be coming out of your pocket also.  You know the old joke.  When a bear is chasing two people you don't need to run faster then the bear just faster then the other guy.  Good luck to all.

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[GlapLaw]

The mood tells me that one "single" lawyer for HashFast won't be enough. Shall we see how many are incoming...

The sad part is all the lawyers are paid for with your money.    
It sucks to say this but realistically the smart thing to do is to rush over there and agree to whatever just to get some sort of money back on the spot.  Otherwise you are likely to get nothing or less then nothing since the fees you'll to your lawyers will be coming out of your pocket also.  You know the old joke.  When a bear is chasing two people you don't need to run faster then the bear just faster then the other guy.  Good luck to all.

I would personally view this advice with extreme skepticism.

A hypothetical case like this could presumably be taken on contingency, and/or attorneys fees may be separate from any recovery.

 Of course, there's always a chance of a company disappearing into the night or going bankrupt.

But see my sig.

[arousedrhino]

It doesn't matter what your ToS said at the time of purchase, no one is going to be refunded 50-60 BTC.  It's absurd to even wish that could happen.  You're going to get $5600 (or whatever you paid in USD) back and that's it.

Where were you when they were claiming thats exactly what they'd do? I don't recall any posts from you on it then. I suppose you are not actually a HF customer and instead bought from their competition without these "absurd" claims, at 1/5th the price?

Why do you think it absurd?  If they'd collected the coins and sat on them— after all, they say their fabrication was paid for by investors not by spending preorder money— then they could easily return them.

Or do you mean its absurd in that they're now sitting on millions of dollars of other people's coins which they obligated themselves to return but can plausibly escape doing so without consequence because of the cost of a legal fight and the possibility of them spending themselves into bankruptcy first, and so it would be "absurd" to honor their agreement? Is that what you mean?

What's absurd?  That anyone believes that they sat on millions of dollars of BTC without exchanging them for USD.  Sure, maybe development costs were initially covered by investors but where has the money for materials and salaries come from?  And HashFast would probably bankrupt then selves if they tried to refund even 25% of their sales in BTC.

And no, I'm not a HF customer.  I'm just a curious bystander and ASIC enthusiast.  Does that mean I shouldn't have an opinion and can't post here or something?

But they promised BTC refunds. It's not customers fault they promised such thing. Customers didn't force them to promise BTC refunds. It was their retard marketing scheme to bring customers who just blew up in their face. How would you feel to pay for a product with some kind of insurance and then get 0 product and 0 insurance. I bet you wouldn't like that.

And Obama promised that, "if you like your healthcare plan you can keep it". Try suing him on that statement. Just because there was a promise does not mean that entity will keep the promise. If a corporation knows they can make money with a false promise, or by not keeping a promise then they will do just that. HF has millions in coin, their most profitable move is to launder that coin and allow HF to go bankrupt at least in the short term. By the time the legal system catches up the money will be long gone.

As a BTC paying customer you cannot just trust any entity you are dealing with. It would have made more sense for HF to partner with an escrow service so that it could be verified the coins for the miners were actually being held but alas this did not occur.

 

[Luke-Jr]

Sounds like Luke-Jr has his Baby-Jet and is trying to get it going at full speed (30gh/s at last check with cgminer and bfgminer). Check out the Eligius IRC channel for more info.

30gh/s? I don't even know if should i cry or should i laugh.

This is just with unfinished code, and possibly some problems with the unit.
Also, it's 30 Gh/s average. More like 600 Gh/s (haven't measured exactly), but not working 95% of the time.

I know it's not your code, but while you're sleeping, can you fire it up with cgminer and tell us what happens?  

I'm somehow doubting that it's going to churn along happily at 400gh+.

cgminer was working for a few seconds then losing the device, detected it again, repeat.

I tracked this down to an unconnected power cable.
Now that the power cable is connected, cgminer is churning along happily at over 400 Gh/s.
BFGMiner is still only getting 40 Gh/s, but that's my job to finish the code

[GalaxyASIC]

An update for those who follow me :
First meeting with a new lawyer is this Monday. He ether takes the case or will refer me to a more experienced or more appropriate in this particular matter lawyer.

[User705]

The mood tells me that one "single" lawyer for HashFast won't be enough. Shall we see how many are incoming...

The sad part is all the lawyers are paid for with your money.    
It sucks to say this but realistically the smart thing to do is to rush over there and agree to whatever just to get some sort of money back on the spot.  Otherwise you are likely to get nothing or less then nothing since the fees you'll to your lawyers will be coming out of your pocket also.  You know the old joke.  When a bear is chasing two people you don't need to run faster then the bear just faster then the other guy.  Good luck to all.

I would personally view this advice with extreme skepticism.

A hypothetical case like this could presumably be taken on contingency, and/or attorneys fees may be separate from any recovery.

 Of course, there's always a chance of a company disappearing into the night or going bankrupt.

But see my sig.

Spoken like an attorney.    Yes customers don't go quickly and see if you can wrangle even a little bit of your money payable on the spot from a company that is quickly looking like it will simply close up shop but come pay me some fees so that I may sue them for you.  Really?  What good attorney in their right mind would take a case on contingency that involves a company with no assets and attempt bitcoin recovery - an asset that even if it existed in the company's possession is virtually impossible to lien or to effectively recover by force.  Sure one can do it on principle but still I would personally view this advice with extreme skepticism. 
This is almost like a prisoners dilemma.  HF likely is waiting to see how many people will sign that refund form in order to see how much they have to pay out in refunds and if they can continue to stay in business BFL style.  Of course if very few people opt for the refund and instead sue then they will likely enter bankruptcy protection since it's pretty clear the claims of people wanting full BTC refunds would outweigh everything.  So for investomers it's lose lose.  Don't sign the form and you will likely get nothing or sign the form and get some money but you might be in a race with everyone else trying to get at least something from HF as well.

[GalaxyASIC]

Gmaxwell's scenario is exactly what was we were led to believe because "the adults" had finally come to bitcoin asic miner manufacturing(and  they were investor backed and didn't need to use the Bitcoin for the first batch... Clearly we grossly misunderstood their statements).

Where did HF made the statement that they were investor backed and didn't need to use the Bitcoin for the first batch

[GlapLaw]

The mood tells me that one "single" lawyer for HashFast won't be enough. Shall we see how many are incoming...

The sad part is all the lawyers are paid for with your money.    
It sucks to say this but realistically the smart thing to do is to rush over there and agree to whatever just to get some sort of money back on the spot.  Otherwise you are likely to get nothing or less then nothing since the fees you'll to your lawyers will be coming out of your pocket also.  You know the old joke.  When a bear is chasing two people you don't need to run faster then the bear just faster then the other guy.  Good luck to all.

I would personally view this advice with extreme skepticism.

A hypothetical case like this could presumably be taken on contingency, and/or attorneys fees may be separate from any recovery.

 Of course, there's always a chance of a company disappearing into the night or going bankrupt.

But see my sig.

Spoken like an attorney.    Yes customers don't go quickly and see if you can wrangle even a little bit of your money payable on the spot from a company that is quickly looking like it will simply close up shop but come pay me some fees so that I may sue them for you.  Really?  What good attorney in their right mind would take a case on contingency that involves a company with no assets and attempt bitcoin recovery - an asset that even if it existed in the company's possession is virtually impossible to lien or to effectively recover by force.  Sure one can do it on principle but still I would personally view this advice with extreme skepticism.  
This is almost like a prisoners dilemma.  HF likely is waiting to see how many people will sign that refund form in order to see how much they have to pay out in refunds and if they can continue to stay in business BFL style.  Of course if very few people opt for the refund and instead sue then they will likely enter bankruptcy protection since it's pretty clear the claims of people wanting full BTC refunds would outweigh everything.  So for investomers it's lose lose.  Don't sign the form and you will likely get nothing or sign the form and get some money but you might be in a race with everyone else trying to get at least something from HF as well.

There are plenty of reasons a risky case might be taken on contingency. This is particularly true where, as here, actual costs would presumably be low (no need for experts, no need for lengthy discovery). Biggest cost would be attorney time.

I'm not advising anyone one way or the other, but I'm skeptical of any advice suggesting people forego potential legal rights at the suggestion of a forum poster and without consulting a lawyer.

Anything more specific and I worry about coming too close to ethical lines, so I will refrain and stick with generalities.

[BeepBeep2]

How many of you would still be whining and crying asking for BTC refunds and refusing USD refunds if When you paid for your BJ1 orders BTC had a USD value of $10.00 But then 2 weeks later it dropped to $1.00 and has been there ever since, how many of you folks would still be asking for the same BTC refund if you had the chance to get the FULL Original Value of your Order Back in USD ? ? ? ?

I would have taken the BTC because I see much potential in cryptocurrency. I think many others here would have done the same.

[User705]

Fancy lawyer speak = Don't do anything without consulting a lawyer.  Actual costs would presumably be low.
Back to HF biz.  Is this one of their units?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=251415846325

Seller in San Diego?  Hmm I wonder if I was correct back in Nov?

You can be guaranteed that they will ship before Jan. 1.  Even if it is broken, consumes 10x the power, 1/2 the hash rate, and uses someone else's chips, you will be sure they will ship

Wanna bet?

(No, I've not learned my lesson about those kind of bets yet.)

I will bet if u are willing.   HashFast is a US located and registered company.  They have binding arbitration agreement in their contract.   They essentially lose everything by not shipping by 1 Jan. 

Would it really be out of the realm of possibilities for exchange rate to be over $1k and them simply refunding everyone the fiat price and self mining or selling to friends and family out the back door?  I'd have to look again but I think their very one sided TOS didn't state anything about refunding in BTC.

[RickJamesBTC]

Fancy lawyer speak = Don't do anything without consulting a lawyer.  Actual costs would presumably be low.
Back to HF biz.  Is this one of their units?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=251415846325

Seller in San Diego?  Hmm I wonder if I was correct back in Nov?

You can be guaranteed that they will ship before Jan. 1.  Even if it is broken, consumes 10x the power, 1/2 the hash rate, and uses someone else's chips, you will be sure they will ship

Wanna bet?

(No, I've not learned my lesson about those kind of bets yet.)

I will bet if u are willing.   HashFast is a US located and registered company.  They have binding arbitration agreement in their contract.   They essentially lose everything by not shipping by 1 Jan. 

Would it really be out of the realm of possibilities for exchange rate to be over $1k and them simply refunding everyone the fiat price and self mining or selling to friends and family out the back door?  I'd have to look again but I think their very one sided TOS didn't state anything about refunding in BTC.

Who the hell is bidding on a box with no manufacturer info?? In hand 2th miner? From some unknown person?

[timmah]

Fancy lawyer speak = Don't do anything without consulting a lawyer.  Actual costs would presumably be low.
Back to HF biz.  Is this one of their units?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=251415846325

Seller in San Diego?  Hmm I wonder if I was correct back in Nov?

Looks like a CT box, HF doesn't have that kind of board design and their "fastest" product is only 1.2TH with 3 chip/boards.

[RickJamesBTC]

Fancy lawyer speak = Don't do anything without consulting a lawyer.  Actual costs would presumably be low.
Back to HF biz.  Is this one of their units?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=251415846325

Seller in San Diego?  Hmm I wonder if I was correct back in Nov?

Looks like a CT box, HF doesn't have that kind of board design and their "fastest" product is only 1.2TH with 3 chip/boards.

They said it is cointerra, although I'd love to know how that could happen, since cointerra would be jumping all over the place if they had shipped anything.

[Anddos]

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=butterfliesandthings&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller

he has only sold $14.95 products,stay well away

[User705]

My bad looks like pics are cointerra.  Where is cointerra located?

[RickJamesBTC]

My bad looks like pics are cointerra.  Where is cointerra located?

Here is what the seller says
"
They are in Texas where my brother works. He works for Cointerra. I'm flying there this weekend to pick them up in time for the auctions to close and then shipping them to winning bidders.

- butterfliesandthings
"

[PuertoLibre]

My bad looks like pics are cointerra.  Where is cointerra located?

Here is what the seller says
"
They are in Texas where my brother works. He works for Cointerra. I'm flying there this weekend to pick them up in time for the auctions to close and then shipping them to winning bidders.

- butterfliesandthings
"

When you see butterflies....run...as fast as you can!

[RickJamesBTC]

My bad looks like pics are cointerra.  Where is cointerra located?

Here is what the seller says
"
They are in Texas where my brother works. He works for Cointerra. I'm flying there this weekend to pick them up in time for the auctions to close and then shipping them to winning bidders.

- butterfliesandthings
"

When you see butterflies....run...as fast as you can!

rofl.  Anyways, I cross posted this into the cointerra thread, belongs there.

[CYPER]

My bad looks like pics are cointerra.  Where is cointerra located?

Here is what the seller says
"
They are in Texas where my brother works. He works for Cointerra. I'm flying there this weekend to pick them up in time for the auctions to close and then shipping them to winning bidders.

- butterfliesandthings
"

When you see butterflies....run...as fast as you can!

In the opposite direction and NOT towards them obviously 

[Tehfiend]

So you believed that they would be able to design and manufacture everything without touching any of the pre-order funds?

Yes, I did— or at least substantially. This is the norm in electronics manufacture, thats what investors are for, normally you don't have the customers funds before your design is done and manufactured. Pre-orders are unusual. Even in custom one off manufacture in the commercial market not only is payment normally provided _at delivery_ but goods are often invoiced net-30, so you won't get paid until sometime after delivery of the product.

Besides, you can factor out the exchange rate noise, just assume that the exchange rate was constant. In (some/most/all) states you are legally obligated to provide full refunds for pre-orders with fairly short notice on late delivery, and— obviously— in all states you are required to refund customers if you don't ship a product.  So they wouldn't have been able to meet even the most conventional of obligations, in the worst case (e.g. their design failed) if they'd been spending the pre-order funds to fund design and manufacturing.

In the mining space pre-order lets a maker lock in outsized prices and deny business to the competition by locking up the customers funds early. It might also be used to fund development and manufacture but if so, thats very risky, and may create all kind of adverse exposure for the business. Better to get investors with clearly established rights and obligations.

Yes exactly it is the norm in electronics manufacturing that does not require a pre-order and an EXTREMELY short time to market before people want their money back which is not the case here. Normally this would be handled via something like Kickstarter which usually offers ZERO refunds.

The only reason HF would need to conduct a pre-order is because they needed pre-order funds to complete their product. Originally they said they had investors and would not do a pre-order model but once they opened pre-orders it was clear that they did not have the funding required and would be spending pre-order funds to complete their product making it impossible to give all customers 100% refunds in ANY currency much less the volatile BTC. I felt similar with KNC since they actually offered full US refunds at any point prior to when you order "entered production". They also could not actually guarantee that promise in a situation where BTC bottoms out and the vast majority of all customers request a refund. If that happened I would not be surprised despite their "guarantee" of full refunds. It's a gamble no matter which horse you bet on but the people thinking it's even possible to get a full BTC refund need to readjust their expectations because it's just not possible regardless if they deserve it or not.

/sadtruth